Star trek: The next generation 25 anniversary

Exploration is all fun and good, but I don't think it should be treated as an absolute in how Star Trek should be handled. What happens after we've explored a strange new world and encountered new civilizations? What is our responsibility? What can we share with one another and how will that affect the Federation and the said civilization? With TNG and the other series, the episodic feel gives the overall impression that nothing anyone does really matters, like they're wiping their hands clean of the discovery and never bother to mention it again. Voyager was the epidemy of this with it's infamous reset switch.

Ya... But then it's just "Star" and no "Trek". Fact of the matter is, TOS & TNG did sometimes revisit past consequences but I don't want a show that dwells on them. For me Star Trek is "to boldly go where no man has gone before". Period.

As I said, live and let live. That's what Star Trek is to me and if it's something else to you then that's great. Star Trek is HUGE. One can't be expected to love it all but the beauty of it is that because it's so diverse there's something there for everyone.

And after all those years and all those episodes where Picard tried to prove to Q that humanity is not what he thinks they are..... Q wins the argument. And the thing that brings Picard to his senses is not humanity's evolved sense of right and wrong or it's rising to the level of omnipotence, but a human refugee from a point in Earth's history that Picard continuously chastised.

I'm referring only to the series. The TNG movies really lost the spirit of the show and, honestly, Gene's vision.
 
Riker: I could have saved that girl.
Picard: You were right not to try.

Yep. Totally not self-centered or dim-witted at all. A clear sign that humanity has evolved into something better when we give praise for not saving a child's life.

Again, in context. It was giving praise for resisting "ultimate power". His point with the Shakespeare was that there was no limit to what we could be, not that we were perfect. FAR from it.
 
Again, in context. It was giving praise for resisting "ultimate power". His point with the Shakespeare was that there was no limit to what we could be, not that we were perfect. FAR from it.

No. His point with the Shakespeare quote was comparing humanity to the likes of angels and gods. And when you mix that in with Picard's constant self-worship about how Humanity has evolved into a race that is no longer prejudiced, no longer uses money and no longer has the need to keep physical objects, well, how else do you not see that Picard is describing humanity as being pure and perfect?

And even if your point of view was the case, it's still the wrong conclusion that these characters come up with. They say power corrupts, but that's it. Power corrupts. It's absolute because... I don't know. No one says why. I mean, Q may have god like powers, but he certainly doesn't come off as a corrupted individual. He's got standards and (believe it or not) a sense of morality that he tries to bestow upon Picard in very subtle ways. And no matter how you spin it, you're saying that the right, incorruptible thing to do is to let children die..... I can just imagine what Picard might say to the grieving parents.

Picard: We had the power to save your girl's life, but chose not to because that would obviously be the evil thing to do. Sure, you might say with great power comes great responsibility, but a good human shouldn't have powers like that or else we'll all spawn into ghoulish hell beasts who lose all sense of morality, common sense and only want to use it to make life a living hell for everyone else in the galaxy. So you can see how deliberately not saving your child's life is a great step in the right direction. Anyone who has the power to prevent someone's death should be considered the lowest of the low because POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY!

Star Trek Generations
Picard uses the power of the Nexus to save the lives of his entire crew even though they already died.

That's just being a dick. We can't save children who have died, but Picard can save his own crew who have also died. Way to showcase not using that power Picard.
 
Mother of God.
facepalm-picard.gif
 
Jeyl, you CLEARLY have far more invested in this than I do. I write one sentence and you respond with a thesis.

As I said, live and let live. I still think you're wrong but you win.
 
As I said, live and let live. I still think you're wrong but you win.

Well, if letting a pink shirt wearing little girl die horribly in a fiery explosion is right, you bet your warp core that I'm proud to be wrong!

Captain Jeyl of the USS RPF.
"No little girl dies on my watch!"
 
Jeyl, watch that scene again. Picard recites the quote, and Q angrily throws the book at him and says something like "is that how you really see humanity?" And Picard says "I can see us someday becoming that."

That is a far, far, different thing than you describe.
 
Jeyl, watch that scene again. Picard recites the quote, and Q angrily throws the book at him and says something like "is that how you really see humanity?" And Picard says "I can see us someday becoming that."

That is a far, far, different thing than you describe.

So humans becoming gods is a good thing.... Until it actually happens.
 
Boy I miss the '90s. New episodes of TNG and DS9, TNG rerun on so many channels that you could watch a different episode several times a day... plus a lot of other good TV.

Where on the flip side I find DS9 to be the least "Trek" of them. :lol

Actually, I have to disagree here. Star Trek is very much about exploration, but not the exploration of space. Overall, Star Trek has been about the exploration of the human condition.

Deep Space 9 did this very well. It explored parts of the human condition that Trek had never done before. It gets out of Roddenberry's box by making more than half the characters non-humans and placing it on an alien space station outside of Federations space.

So humans becoming gods is a good thing.... Until it actually happens.

I think the idea is that we have to grow into it. Don't forget the lessons of Gary Mitchell and Khan.
 
Actually, I have to disagree here. Star Trek is very much about exploration, but not the exploration of space. Overall, Star Trek has been about the exploration of the human condition.

Deep Space 9 did this very well. It explored parts of the human condition that Trek had never done before. It gets out of Roddenberry's box by making more than half the characters non-humans and placing it on an alien space station outside of Federations space.

Lol. In that regard I agree. By me saying it was the least "Trek" of them I meant it literally, ie: Trek being a physical journey. ;)
 
I think the idea is that we have to grow into it.

So why couldn't Riker grow into the powers he just received? Everyone just flat out says it is wrong to have powers like this and that no good could come out of it. How can you grow into something when the first reaction by everyone is pure rejection?

And how does anyone even know how to grow into this power naturally? Is there some PADD entry describing what to do when you can magically make things happen with the snap of the fingers?

Sure, Gary Mitchell may have used his powers to kill his fellow officers, but what did Riker do? The only time he felt conflicted was when he felt guilty about not saving the girl, not using his powers to much. Heck, he practically showers everyone with gifts! Does Riker chastise his crewman when they turn down his gift by proclaiming them to be inferior just like Q does? No. I would say that positive thinking is a good first step in learning how to use hid newly found powers responsibly. Instead, we just have the powers completely thrown out for no reason and everyone is happy knowing that Riker didn't save a dead girl wearing pink.

Grow into it. Pspsps.
 
So why couldn't Riker grow into the powers he just received? Everyone just flat out says it is wrong to have powers like this and that no good could come out of it. How can you grow into something when the first reaction by everyone is pure rejection?

Because...
1) They see what Q is with these powers.
2) It's like giving a five year old caveman a machine gun and saying "Kid, this can be used to Kill mammoths, fend off attackers, etc." - putting aside all the evil it can be used for, it's just dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't know what it is, what it can do, and how to use it responsibly. They're not going to 'grow into it' - not without causing a lot of pain and suffering to those around him first, and even still probably won't come to terms with it.

Riker getting offered the power of the Q is an outward portrayal of man's desire for a quick-fix, no work solution - the ultimate in sloth. The question of getting a sudden rush of corrupting power devalues our spirit and the drive for exploration and achievement. Ironically, they tried to show us this in a Voyager episode ("Death Wish").
 
Two words. Harry Kim. When you look at his track record, he starts the series as an Ensign.... and ends the series as an Ensign. In Deep Space Nine, we have a young Ferengi named Nog joins Starfleet in DS9's fourth year, and by season seven is made a Lieutenant. Yes, Janeway is more than happy to reduce Tom Paris in rank from Lieutenant to Ensign in one episode, and promote him back to Lieutenant seasons later. But Harry Kim? He always remains an ensign.

You know something isn't right on your ship when your seven year seasoned officer who has died in the line of duty on more than one occasion.... will be taking orders from a four year seasoned Ferengi.

My comment about Voyager being the "best" was directed at the treatment and portrayal of women. As much as I liked Voyager, even I couldn't argue that it was the best series (it's not even close).
 
The issue I have with Janeway is that she doesn't come off as a character who goes through any kind of meaningful growth. She just is. If you look at Sisko and Picard, you see a monumental character growth from their first season depictions all the way to the last. Picard is no longer a smug or child hating person, and Sisko is promoted to Captain and earns the respect of many of his alien comrades. Janeway starts out as the Captain who we must all follow orders from, and that is it. She commands respect, but doesn't really do anything that is respectful. Most of her justifications in doing things always boils down to rank and rank alone.

*When she orders the array destroyed even though there are numerous other ways of doing it that won't leave the crew stranded*
Torres: Who does she think she is to make a decision like that for all of us?
Chakotay: She's the captain.

*When Paris suggests warning a planet's population that will be destroyed in just days*
Janeway: You have no idea what the consequences will be.
Paris: Anything's got to be better than mass destruction!
Janeway: You are not to warn these people. That's an order.

No discussion, no reasoning and no common sense. Her holy bible is the prime directive, and nothing about it is ever wrong. An entire planet's population might die? Let them. If there's one thing that's worse than mass destruction, it's the thought of this human created rule book might be wrong. Because as humanity's history and Star Trek history has shown, humanity is NEVER EVER WRONG in anything, especially when it comes to it's rules and conduct! The only downside to Janeway's orders to allow this civilization to die is that it wasn't three civilizations. I know deep down she wants to beat Archer's record of allowing two whole civilizations to die.


All first season examples. A brand new Captain will, of course, err on the side of the Prime Directive.

I think Janeway really came into her own over the course of the series. She started as a green Captain where she expected people to follow her because she was Captain, to an experienced Captain who knew her crew, earned their respect, and knew when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. By the end of the series Janeway was actually a pretty deep and well developed character (too bad I can't say the same about Tuvok, Chakotay or Kim).

What I really liked about Janeway is that she didn't separate herself from the crew the way Picard, Kirk, or Sisko did. She was involved with her crew's persuits (intellectual, developmental, professional, and personal). I also loved that she was a Scientist and an Explorer - it allowed her to really get involved in the crew's situation. I even loved her stubborn and pig-headed streak - it showed vulnerability and flaw.. and it even worked to their advantage occasionally.

I still think it's a hard decision between Sisko and Picard (it depends on the question, Sisko makes a more interesting character, but I'd serve under Picard any day), but Janeway comes in third (especially 6th/7th season Janeway).
 
Picard on the other hand will be more than happy to spout out lines from Shakespear about how humanity might one day become... and I'm not kidding here.... Gods!

"What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god. I see us one day becoming that"

And that line from Hamlet was meant as sarcasm.
:facepalm

Yeah, TNG can keep it's self-entitled smugness.


Had to get in on this:
You can't blame Picard... part of the Federation charter comes from great wisdom spoken by a wise man: "If someone asks you if you're a god.... you say YES!!!!"
 
LeVar Burton said:

"I never ****ing liked you Wil."

:lol :lol :lol


I wonder just how much of that was a light hearted joke to break the tension of the moment (Will looked like he was about to break down and start crying) and how much was the cold honest truth!


I've never met Wil Wheaton but will get the chance in Toronto this year. Funny enough I hated his character (pretty sure most of us did) on TNG until the writers were smart enough to get rid of him. He completely redeemed himself for me in "The First Duty" though.


Kevin
 
Thanks for posting - I just watched the whole series of those clips - FAN-TASTIC!!

That moment seemed to be a natural tension breaker and I really think that you could see where the cast truly share warm feelings for Will - something that I can honestly say that I was glad to see. It couldn't have been easy for him at that age.
 
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