Star Trek: Strange New Worlds
- Thread starter Noeland
- Start date
Corroborating evidence?
TFA was rushed because Iger wanted something Star Wars in theaters sooner. That skews me against sensing his regard for the fans right from the get-go.
Pretty much garbage in, garbage out, garbage back...
Star Trek or Star Wars thread?
Only you can decide…
Only you can decide…
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Star Trek or Star Wars thread?
Only you can decide…
Well, thanks to Mr. Abrams, that line has certainly been blurred, now, hasn’t it?
lens flareStar Trek or Star Wars thread?
Only you can decide…
asalaw
Master Member
Well, it’s kind of all part of the same problem—poor writing and prioritizing the socio-political agenda of a tiny but vocal minority are common problems to both franchises, and let’s throw in Marvel while we’re at it. Strange New Hair is written by spoiled children with no regard for storytelling, character development, or subtext, and not an original bone in their bodies. I see no difference from the new Star Wars or Marvel, Andor being a notable exception (it’s superbly written, thanks to Tony Gilroy).
But back to new Trek, I can see the next thing happening to the franchise as the same that’s happened with Andor—it’s excellent, but no one is watching because of fan fatigue caused by terrible shows like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Book of Boba Fett. It may take longer because Paramount+ hasn’t saturated their service with crap the way Disney+ has, but it’ll happen eventually. You can only pump so much bilge into the boat before the passengers flee overboard.
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To be fair Star Trek has always had a socio-political side... it was just cleverly disguised by good storytelling. To me that's the real issue really - its the need to tell us how socially forward your shows are etc. If you just had a super badass Jedi/Sith, wrote them as super bad ass with great story and dialog - and they happened to be a trans/gay/LGBTQ+ character (No offense intended to anyone LGBTQ+) - and we find this out via relevant story points then its fine... In Star Wars Sex doesn't come up very often, so I'm not sure how that it matters and how it would be worked in... but a good writer could make it relevant to the story in some way... I guess Its the force feeding that I object to, not the message itself.
Just Tell me a great Story. 99% of the time sexual orientation of the character is not important to an action adventure story... So why do I even need to know or care?
I think one of the reasons that Rings of Power failed so poorly (among many reasons) is that the cast and show felt compelled to scream from the rooftops how diverse they were - honestly "I" (and I suspect most of us) don't give a damn about that and wanted a great Tolkien-esque story. Your first female black dwarf in the story is not important to me. they would have been MUCH better severed just having it happen with no fanfare as if it were 100% normal (because it should be) and told a great story.
I apologize to all for the soapbox... this background issue has been bugging me for a while and some of the previous posts kind of pushed me to vent...
Jedi Dade
Push too hard and use the pen as a bludgeon you get backlash. Exactly what is happening now, that was rare back then, because things were incidental or written elegantly. Which amazingly works to get a point across. God forbid you show two valid sides as TOS often did.
STAR WARS is fantasy for kids. We don't need to get into the characters' sex lives, unless it affects the plot.
STAR TREK has always been edgier in that area, of course, but the cart should not be pulling the horse. Like it currently does.
Presenting two sides of an argument through great characters like Spock and McCoy (and leaving the audience to draw their own conclusions) is a totally alien concept to the current stewards of the franchise.
Preach, preach, preach.
Exactly. Good Sci Fi makes you think in new ways, but it lets you do the thinking. Here was Kirk arming a primitive tribe to keep in balance with what the Klingons were doing. McCoy not too pleased. We relate to both deeply!
Important note, there--we liked Spock and McCoy, and so it was OKAY when one or both of them was proven wrong. And they were still friends and colleagues even after passionate disagreements.
Now, it's "our way or the highway" all across the board. Echo-chamber madness.
As an aside, the great RJ Shaw of The Fourth Age channel on YouTube recently posted a video examining today's zombie franchises, specifically Marvel Comics, and the shell-company shenanigans surrounding them.
Marvel Comics is a dead company. Unprofitable, and basically used by a larger parent company (Disney) to project an illusion of health and social justice/ESG relevance in order to attract investors. Without their being kept afloat by The Mouse, they'd go under.
And so it is with STAR TREK. A parade of super-woke, loss-leader shows designed to attract the interest of investors who can throw money at CBS/Paramount. The messaging is more important than making money because the parent company is keeping the shell company afloat and projecting an image of success, despite all signs strongly pointing in the opposite direction.
asalaw
Master Member
I agree—you know what’s a perfect example of the right way to do it? Everything Everywhere All at Once. Beautiful mother-daughter story, the daughter is gay, and it’s integral to the story, to her character, and her effect on the rest of her conservative Chinese family. I just watched it again with my wife (she hadn’t seen it yet), and I got very, very misty at the end. Superb story, skillfully crafted, and a joy to watch. Stick that in your checkbox and smoke it, Disney and Paramount.
Cephus
Master Member
We rewatched it on Thanksgiving and I agree, that's how you do it. Joy being gay was a thing but it wasn't a political position. The entire story didn't hinge on her being gay. There was no preaching, no "being gay is great!" or anything like that. She just so happened to be gay and that was fine. Great movie, highly recommended.
I also saw a video on YouTube a couple of days ago, I wish I could remember what it was, where they were making the point that the whole woke narrative is "if you don't accept 'strong, perfect female characters, you're an evil misogynist!" It's not about the characters, it's about the political message behind them. Obviously, in the case of Marvel, we do love female characters, they've been in the comics for decades. Well-told, as 'believable' as you can get with characters that can fly, they've been some of the most loved characters around. Then you get to the movies and none of them have problems anymore. From Rey Skywalker to Captain Marvel, they're all perfect from their first appearance on screen, their only problem is straight white men and they'd be a whole lot better if the men would just go away and leave them in their perfection.
They never had to learn anything on-screen. Tony Stark had to build his first suit in a cave. Carol Danvers never had to undergo any real adversity. Rey, from the instant she was on-screen, she was better than everyone else with no training. "Here, Han, let me show you how perfect I am with your ship!" They never lose. Why? Because women have to be perfect all the time! That's the problem that the wokerati can't get through their heads. That's just crap storytelling, no matter what race/gender/sexuality you're talking about.
Picard102
Sr Member
TOS got constant pushback for it's political message. What episode both sided an issue?
MCCOY: Do I have to say it? It's not bad enough there's one serpent in Eden teaching one side about gun powder. You want to make sure they all know about it!
KIRK: Exactly. Each side receives the same knowledge and the same type of firearm.
MCCOY: Have you gone out of your mind? Yes, maybe you have. Tyree's wife, she said there was something in that root. She said now you can refuse her nothing.
KIRK: Superstition.
MCCOY: Is it a coincidence this is exactly what she wants?
KIRK: Is it? She wants superior weapons. That's the one thing neither side can have. Bones. Bones, the normal development of this planet was the status quo between the hill people and the villagers. The Klingons changed that with the flintlocks. If this planet is to develop the way it should, we must equalize both sides again.
MCCOY: Jim, that means you're condemning this whole planet to a war that may never end. It could go on for year after year, massacre after massacre.
KIRK: All right, Doctor! All right. Say I'm wrong. Say I'm drugged. Say the woman drugged me. What is your sober, sensible solution to all this?
MCCOY: I don't have a solution. But furnishing them firearms is certainly not the answer.
KIRK: Bones, do you remember the twentieth century brush wars on the Asian continent? Two giant powers involved, much like the Klingons and ourselves. Neither side felt could pull out.
MCCOY: Yes, I remember. It went on bloody year after bloody year.
KIRK: What would you have suggested, that one side arm its friends with an overpowering weapon? Mankind would never have lived to travel space if they had. No. The only solution is what happened back then. Balance of power.
MCCOY: And if the Klingons give their side even more?
KIRK: Then we arm our side with exactly that much more. A balance of power. The trickiest, most difficult, dirtiest game of them all, but the only one that preserves both sides.
MCCOY: And what about your friend Tyree? Will he understand this balance of power?
KIRK: No. Probably not. But I'm going to have to try and make him understand. I never had a more difficult task.
MCCOY: Well, Jim, here's another morsel of agony for you. Since Tyree won't fight, he will be one of the first to die.
KIRK: Well, war isn't a good life, but it's life. His wife is the only way to reach him. If I tell her we're going to supply guns, maybe she'll convince him.
McCoy and Spock were certainly not in agreement all the time and had their discussions too.
Doesn't mean they didn't pick a direction to go because you have to finish the story.
Are we comfortable with Kirk's decision above? Are we supposed to be? McCoy's side of it haunts us.
I don’t think “A Private Little War” is a great episode, but do I love the ending, with an exhausted Kirk asking to beam back up to the ship, and the Enterprise just leaving. One of the most melancholy endings in the entire series. Sometimes there’s no easy win, and so you have to just do your best and move on.
NakedMoleRat
Legendary Member
That’s the key to writing a lovable character. He can’t be perfect and need to have his ambiguities as well.
