Star Trek Into Darkness (Pre-release)

[DARTH SABER]

Are you still clinging on to that stupid "one shot" deal?

Are you still trying sweep your comment under the rug?

Think about it from a different perspective. If you were to take the films that were relevant to the much larger and important story that makes up four of the six movies in Star Trek, do you really think TMP is that crucial?
The only thing that even matters in that film that carries over into the next movies is that the Enterprise looks different. Now Some would say that Kirk being an Admiral is a big deal, but the Wrath of Khan establishes that in it's own way. So despite my love of TMP, I don't find it unreasonable at all to outright skip it if you wanted the movies to continue the themes that have come before it. And in that regard, saving the Earth from an alien probe does feel like a one shot deal as far as the big picture is concerned. And yes, I'm on the "Skip Star Trek V" boat too. Not only does that film ignore a lot of elements that were important in the previous movies, it introduces it's own problems that make it incompatible even with Star Trek VI.

We're not discussing whether a film is "crucial" to an entire series...We're discussing why an earth based Trek film can no longer be good.

"City on the Edge of Forever"? I agree. It is one of the best Star Trek episodes. But that's just one episode. "Tomorrow is Yesterday"? Good, if a bit boring. No where near anyone's list of best Star Trek episodes. "Assignment: Earth"? First you have to convince me that that's even a Star Trek story at all. Even if you think it is, it wasn't meant to be.

Now, how about these episodes?

Balance of Terror, The Conscience of the King, The Menagerie Parts I & 2, Space Seed, Arena, Devil in the Dark, Amok Time, The Doomsday Machine, The Trouble with Tribbles, A Piece of the Action, The Empath, The Tholian Web, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield. All classic and iconic episodes that many future Star Trek series have referenced and many other forms of entertainment have spoofed and/or parodied over the past five decades. None of which have Earth play an important role.

All you've proven is that an earth based Trek story can either be good or bad, just as a deep space Trek story can be good or bad..

But as I've said. I'm not against Earth playing an important role in a Star Trek movie or TV episode. I'm just not happy about the fact that the people who are making these new movies believe that Earth should ALWAYS play an important role in Star Trek.

Who said "always"? Only two movies have been produced in the new franchise that deals with earth....Far less than the old franchise.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Again, why should I care about a writer's work if he himself says he doesn't give a crap?

Since when did "Not canon" = "Not giving a crap" ?

 

[DARTH SABER]

Again, why should I care about a writer's work if he himself says he doesn't give a crap?

When did he say he didnt give a crap?


If he had said the comics were canon there would be people bashing him for making such a declaration. If he says they arent canon, then there would be people bashing him for writing a story that has nothing to do with the film...And if he leaves it up to the fans, then he's accused of not giving a crap.

 

[kalkamel]

Since when did "Not canon" = "Not giving a crap" ?

In some cases, even when its "canon", the writers don't give a crap. Have you seen Voyager's "Threshold" and Enterprise's "These Are The Voyages"? :lol

 

[nickytea]

When did he say he didnt give a crap?


If he had said the comics were canon there would be people bashing him for making such a declaration. If he says they arent canon, then there would be people bashing him for writing a story that has nothing to do with the film...And if he leaves it up to the fans, then he's accused of not giving a crap.

Exactly.

Him not insisting his comic work is canon despite "fan consensus" is more an act of humility than anything.

 

[JediG60racer]

Why does the Earth always need saving?? Didn't we save it five minutes ago? Why can't it just stay saved? Can't they save Uhura for once instead and call it a flick?
Just saying.

 

[Angelus Lupus]

Why bother saving Earth, they didn't care about saving Vulcan or Romulus.

 

[Jeyl]

Who said "always"? Only two movies have been produced in the new franchise that deals with earth....Far less than the old franchise.

Producer and Writer of STID, Damon Lindelof.

Damon Lindelof: “They’re in the 23rd century and these people are from Earth. The Earth needed to play more of a role in these movies, especially in the sense of giving the audience a degree of relatability. I think that in the same way that New York City becomes this anchor point for people in the Marvel movies; that’s Spidey’s stomping ground, that was the stomping ground for Tony Stark, that was the stomping ground for The Avengers, it’s New York. We wanted to do the same thing with Earth in the Star Trek movies.”

He says "these movies", not "this movie" which could mean Earth might very well play an important role in the next movie again. And given that JJ Abrams' approach to these films is always trying to get people to like Star Trek by playing it safe in every way possible, he's gotten to the point where he doesn't even need to bother following up the last movie.

"Part of [the challenge] was making sure all the characters get introduced brand new. You can’t assume people know or like or relate to the character. A lot of sequels begin assuming you already love the people and to me it is really important that this is a brand new movie. If you saw the first movie – great! fantastic!..but you don’t have to. "

To recap, producer and writer Damon Lindelof says that Earth must play an important role in these movies because that's the only way he thinks audiences will care, and we have JJ saying that the sequels must be treated as though they're new movies and not real follow ups. Wasn't the entire point of the last movie supposed to introduce new audiences to Star Trek? You're not really showing much confidence in your own work if you think you have to do the whole "introduction" thing all over again. Coming up with excuses like sequels shouldn't build up from the previous movie is just bull crap. You would think that a self-proclaimed STAR WARS fan like JJ Abrams would know better than that since that franchise did the exact opposite of what he's doing here.

 

[DARTH SABER]

Producer and Writer of STID, Damon Lindelof.



He says "these movies", not "this movie" which could mean Earth might very well play an important role in the next movie again.

Yes, he said "THESE"...the two movies that have already been produced.

And I dont see where he says "always"

To recap, producer and writer Damon Lindelof says that Earth must play an important role in these movies because that's the only way he thinks audiences will care

Nope, he said earth NEEDED (past tense) to play an important in "these movies".

Clearly he was talking about these two films....Not the layout for every film in the future of the franchise.And you still havent provided a decent argument that proves earth movies are bad.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Why bother saving Earth, they didn't care about saving Vulcan or Romulus.

(Prime universe) Spock tried to save Romulus, but his plan was too late.

The Federation sent in a small fleet of ships to stop Nero at Vulcan, but were decimated and didn't really know he planned on destroying the entire planet in the first place.


Of course if you meant the writers destroyed Vulcan and Romulus without any considerations on the effect it would have on the hardcore fans, I understand your point.

I had a really hard time accepting Vulcan being destroyed in ST'09 and was furious they would go so far as to do that. In the end though, it was a balsy move- in essence Abrams is saying that no planet/culture is "safe" from destruction due to their "importance" in Trek lore.

Now you and I, and everyone knows that Earth will probably get through this film (probably not without its scars, but it will still be there in one piece).

Why not destroy Earth? Old, old argument but it is the simple fact that from a marketing perspective, destroying Earth will alienate a great chunk of the viewing audience, and Abrams isn't an idiot when it comes to reaching out to the widest (most profitable) audience possible.


Kevin

 

[Jeyl]

And you still havent provided a decent argument that proves earth movies are bad.

I'm not trying to prove that Earth movies are bad. I'm trying to prove that there's more to Star Trek than just Earth. Since these films are being catered to folks who have never seen Star Trek, and that the last two films before this one was about saving the Earth from bad guys, there's no real evidence to indicate that they're even interested in telling a story that didn't involve Earth. Damon Lindelof compares Earth's setting to New York's setting for Spider Man. Of all the Spider Man films we've gotten, how many actually take place outside of New York for the majority of the story?

And for the record, despite the reasonable arguments against it, I still think Star Trek IV is a good (not great) movie because even with Earth playing a major role, it was different for Star Trek. If the previous two movies were about saving Earth from the bad guys I would have a much different opinion. And even After TVH, It would be another four films before Earth would take the center stage again.

We can have great Star Trek stories about Earth, but we can also have great Star Trek stories without it too.

 

[Yodamann]

It's up to the individual fan -- and their relationship with Trek -- to decide what constitutes Canon.

That is one of the reasons I like to read Star Wars books as opposed to Trek... the stuff in them "actually happened" it's less fan fiction and more of a continuation. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Trek (yes, even JJTrek), but as far as literature is concerned, I will go with Star Wars 9 times out of 10.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

That is one of the reasons I like to read Star Wars books as opposed to Trek... the stuff in them "actually happened" it's less fan fiction and more of a continuation.

As has already been stated in the SW7 thread the EU is not considered canon anymore. (Not certain it ever was actually)

 

[Jeyl]

As has already been stated in the SW7 thread the EU is not considered canon anymore. (Not certain it ever was actually)

Dash Rendar's ship "The Outrider" from the Shadows of the Empire novel and game is featured in the Special Edition of "A New Hope".

 

[NakedMoleRat]

Space....The Final Frontier....
These are the voyages of JJ's Starship Enterprise.
Her ongoing mission, to stand ready to defend the earth,
To wait for bad guys to show up and start trouble.
Boldly staying in orbit, not going where no one has gone before!

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Dash Rendar's ship "The Outrider" from the Shadows of the Empire novel and game is featured in the Special Edition of "A New Hope".

Which shows that the EU has potential to become canon. However I believe that the SOTE video games count as canon. The Outrider (or rather that class of ship, we never see Dash or know the name) in the SE doesn't mean that all EU is legit. Lucasfilm is on record saying that it isn't.

Space....The Final Frontier....
These are the voyages of JJ's Starship Enterprise.
Her ongoing mission, to stand ready to defend the earth,
To wait for bad guys to show up and start trouble.
Boldly staying in orbit, not going where no one has gone before!

lol:lol

 

[Jeyl]

Which shows that the EU has potential to become canon. However I believe that the SOTE video games count as canon. The Outrider (or rather that class of ship, we never see Dash or know the name) in the SE doesn't mean that all EU is legit. Lucasfilm is on record saying that it isn't.

Well, of course not all EU is legit to the overall story. Luke and Leia obviously never successfully turned Vader over to the light side which gave us....

.....this.

But I think the key argument here is that Star Wars handled it's Expanded Universe a lot more differently than Star Trek did. If you were writing for Star Trek, you are pretty much told "Everything you do doesn't matter because anything that's not film is not canon". Where as if you were doing Star Wars, you were actually telling stories that mattered in the universe. There was a great sense of continuity where all the stories were acknowledged to have actually happened.

 

[Paul Andrew]

And now that disney own lucasfilm, has stopped lucasarts development, theres a chance the entire EU could be thrown out. Just POOF. There's not a chance in hell they'll make Abrams stick to any of it if he doesn't want to.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Well, of course not all EU is legit to the overall story. Luke and Leia obviously never successfully turned Vader over to the light side which gave us....

.....this.

That's ghastly! :eek

 

[SmilingOtter]

Elements from SW have been cherry-picked to become canon:
the Outrider, mentioned above.
Aayla Secura and Quinlan Voss
Coruscant for the name of the capital of the Republic/Empire

OTOH, all the work Karen Traviss did on the Mandalorian culture was pretty much wiped out by the Clone Wars series. (Though one could argue that the series is no more canon than the comics or books are.)

Anyway, Spock could have saved Romulus or Vulcan with time travel if he (translation: the writers) had wanted.