Recasting - what can I do ????

[DesTROYer8564]

Niko, as I have told you many times if you have any ideas on how to beat this Jason and I would love to hear them. Your threads on the different reputable Armor makers are great and a good weapon in educating the masses, but if you think more can be done, as I have always said, please let me know. I did not make you Garrison armorer just for your pretty face. Sure, I have copped a bit of flack for it from some, but I have stood by you, how about returning the favour. You know my number.

 

[defstartrooper]

FON your a jerk and I've had enough of your crap and going from my PM and email inbox, so has the rest of the Garrison. Welcome to the banned list.

Thats real mature and professional, and 501st members wonder why some people have issues with the 501st when the people running the place act like this ?

 

[Tan Djarka]

Let's see, how can I explain this?

Criminal #1 cases a bank. He spends months learning it's layout, the employee habits, and delivery schedules. He plans every conceivable detail of the crime he wishes to commit. When the day comes, he goes into the bank, gun drawn. The whole thing goes off without a hitch and he walks away with several million in cash and securities. He subsequently deposits all the money in an "untracable" account and disappears.

Criminal #2 finds out about #1, but he's not a "hands on" sort of criminal. He just hacks the "untracable" bank's security, and electronically transfers all of #1's money out of his account.

Okay, who's right and who's wrong. Is either one more right than the other? Should #1 feel wronged by #2 since it wasn't really his money in the first place?

 

[Scapey]

Why all the analogies?

Artist A creates something with his own hands, either sculpting it from scratch or building it from found parts as used in the original screen-used item. He uses photos, videos, possibly even hands-on time with the original piece as reference for his own build. He works long and hard, and once his final piece is finished, he makes a mould and casts some copies to sell.

Recaster B buys one of the 1st-generation copies, makes a mould and casts some copies to sell.

Cases like that are pretty clear cut.

OK, I can see the lines blurring a little when Artist A is actually in possession of the screen-used article, and is making copies directly from it - But still, he invested the cash in the piece, and had the balls to drop it in rubber.
Or if someone uses photos of a fan-made piece as reference material for their own sculpt.
Or - I suppose this is where the line blurs to the point of invisibility - Someone modifies an original sculpt and sells copies of their version of the piece.


Generally, though, when we talk about recasting we're talking about bog-standard "Buy something, drop it in rubber/copy the circuit diagram/reprint the T-shirt, knock off some copies, PROFIT!!!".
Which, clearly, is out of order.

 

[Tan Djarka]

Why all the analogies?

Artist A creates something with his own hands, either sculpting it from scratch or building it from found parts as used in the original screen-used item...

Because people don't seem to understand the facts at face value. Especially considering your "Artist A" is, in fact, "Intellectual Property Thief B" who is subsequently "wronged" by "Recaster C". "Artist A" created the prop for the studio.

No matter how much time, effort, and artistic merit is represented in a replica, if it is not licensed or endorse by the studio, it is legally and morally THEFT to sell (a single item built for yourself likely falls within the limits of fair use).

 

[Tan Djarka]

It occurs to me that perhaps those among the 501st who refuse to take a stand on the issue of recasting, only do so as they realise the implications of that action. In reality, the recaster is merely a shadowy reflection of the unlicensed replica maker. They may be separated by effort and ability, but in the eyes of the law, the are one and the same. To denounce and pursue recasters, the 501st would call into question the very thing that allows them to exist. There are no genuinely "legitimate armorers". If it wasn't made by Don Post or Rubies (or other license holders), it's probably illegal.

 

[EVO3]

Because people don't seem to understand the facts at face value. Especially considering your "Artist A" is, in fact, "Intellectual Property Thief B" who is subsequently "wronged" by "Recaster C". "Artist A" created the prop for the studio.

No matter how much time, effort, and artistic merit is represented in a replica, if it is not licensed or endorse by the studio, it is legally and morally THEFT to sell (a single item built for yourself likely falls within the limits of fair use).

Ok, you win..... i get it.

You support recasting. Good for you. :rolleyes

Now go build a speaker box or whatever it is you do for fun.

 

[exoray]

Ok, you win..... i get it.

It's the same age old argument that the supporters of recasting always toss up, would you expect anything less?

They just don't get the two wrongs don't make a right logic...

 

[micdavis]

You know it's funny, we have members here who have actually made the original parts that so many covet, yet they don't complain at all when something they created gets copied and sold.

Yet the folks who merely pour plaster into things or rubber over objects that they were simply wealthy enough or lucky enough to have acquired, ***** to high heaven. Are they any more skilled than a recaster....I just don't think so, they're are just protecting their "investment".

If you carve up or build something of your own design and someone knocks it off, fine you've got a *****. Otherwise you're just in it for the money or the ego. Simple as that.

I don't think it's right to recast stuff. But *****ing about it when it's not your IP in the first place is just pathetic. Made even worse if it's actually a licensed item. And too much of THAT kind of *****ing will bring down the thunder and ruin it for everyone.

 

[Vaderman]

Wow, there is a lot of text here. What a thread! All I wanted to know is:
Where can I get a set of Trooper armor?
I don't want to join the 501st, though I might wear it at Halloween or for running around in my backyard...
I already have a nice blaster that shoots nerf darts though I would like the armor to be more accurate, I am also probably too big to be a "proper" stormtrooper, except on a "denser gravity planet" (I am overweight.)

 

[Heatshock]

Ok, you win..... i get it.

You support recasting. Good for you. :rolleyes

Now go build a speaker box or whatever it is you do for fun.

ROFL - quoted for truth man

recasting is wrong
recasting is stealing

ok ok I know we walk the fine line etc etc etc

with regard to T Djarka comments
there is a difference to what is legal/illegal and what is right/wrong
I say again - recasting is wrong
that argument is old, and much used by recasters to justify recasting

I actually wonder what anyone with that kinda of view point has doing on a REPLICA prop forum at all?
ok ok the board is a great forum for helpin a person in their builds. I scratch build some stuff (badly). But theres loads more that I dont have time, skill or aptittude for, but I would still like to have in my collection.
If a person has no concept as to why its bad to take an original artists impression of a prop and recast THAT - why are they even searching these boards? Unless its to find the next easy mark to recast off from.

back to original question - how to beat the recaster?

well unfortunately the only way to do that is not to sell any of your fine replicas. Or at least - only sell em in limited numbers to people whom you know and trust. Sad but true.
The alternative is to sell em so cheap that its makes it not worth recasting. But then we all live in the real world and some compensation for time, skill and material is required.

the problem is - the people who justify recasting will never come round to the argument as they have long since decided that there is nothing wrong with it, and that the original maker is a soft target as they will never have a legal recourse.

The sad fact is that recasting will eventually lead to makers leaving the hobby. That would be terrible for people like me who dont have as much skill at scratch building. I am used to finding this argument used by costumers (ie the aforementioned well known SW costuming grp), but to find that there are some prop collectors who cant seem to see that it is wrong is disapointing.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

No matter how much time, effort, and artistic merit is represented in a replica, if it is not licensed or endorse by the studio, it is legally and morally THEFT to sell (a single item built for yourself likely falls within the limits of fair use).

It's also theft to make for yourself. It's just a waste of time for the studios to go after you, so your argument fails. It's ALL theft!!!

The original artist creating it for the studio got paid - it's not his anymore - it's the studio's. The original artist really has no right to the piece: he is the creator under contract and should be appreciated and acknowledged for creating such a work of art. But the studio has the rights to the piece.

The ANH accurate armor is reworked RotJ armor, so an artist make conscious changes to the original look to re-create the ANH look. So you are ****ing over an artist's interpretation, no matter HOW you justify it.

I get it. So, anyone who wants accurate armor should just go create it themselves and the guy having the original who is able and willing to risk offering copies to people, just shouldn't!? I get it. Let's kill the "cast from screen used" hobby because people have no problems with screwing people over for profit or prestige, as it seems it's only the "cast from screen used" issue that people have a problem with in respecting their fellow prop enthusiasts and the people who offer these to the community.

Let's all go LICENSED!!!

 

[DarthMarmalade]

Wow.

I think there's a lot of sense in what Tan Djarka is saying, if only anybody would listen.

It doesn't seem to me that he supports recasting at all, nor that he's saying that two wrongs make a right. It seems to me, rather, that he's saying that complaining about re-casting is the pot calling the kettle black.

I'll say that many of the comments here seem to boil down to "intellectual property theft is okay when I do it, but not when it's done to me".

I've re-created a fair number of movie and tv costumes and props, mostly for my own use, but I've sold and traded a few. I'm working on a couple now that I might produce in greater numbers and sell. That makes me an outlaw -- I'd be profiting from someone else's intellectual property. If somebody copies my work, I might be flattered to think that I'd done a good job, and I'd probably grumble about it, too.

But I'd be aware, at least, of my own hypocrisy.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

But I'd be aware, at least, of my own hypocrisy.

It's all hypocrisy. Anything unlicensed is theft. Our hobby wouldn't function if we didn't set up some kind of rules of what was acceptable, but since it's all theft, we might as well just forget the rules and everyone is free to do what they wanna do with minimal effort and maximum gain. Let's break down the rules, do as we want, run rampant and get C&Ded by LFL. Nice one.

 

[Scapey]

The intellectual property side of things is a seperate issue.

Yes, anyone making an unlicensed replica is breaching the intellectual property rights of the studio ( As propmakers create their works under contract, and therefore lose the rights to them as a matter of course anyway )...

But that is not the same thing as taking an item that a member of this community has put long hours of toil into making, and ripping it off.

Studios build props in a completely different way, and for completely different reasons than we do.
A studio prop is a one-off, or very small run, made as quickly as possible and possibly for quite a lot of money and it only has to last as long as it's screen time. The person making it is paid a good wage for the hours that they spend doing it, and once the shoot is done the production team ditch it all and move to the next film.

We make props out of love for the source material - And nobody is paid for their work.
I don't see a problem with folk making copies of their own work available to other members of this community, especially if those pieces are not available from a licence-holder - or not available in a certain form from a licence holder.

There is, as I said, a huge difference between creating something with your own hands based on reference photos of the original work, and outright bootlegging a piece by physically moulding and casting it.
One is intellectual property theft, the other is forgery.

Yes, we technically breach copyright law - But if the licence holders were to make the pieces available, and accurate, the fanmade sales would likely fall.
Prices for licenced pieces should theoretically be roughly the same, if not cheaper than fanmade items as the extra cost of the licence itself should be balanced by the savings made by mass-producing an item as opposed to hand-making each one in an artist's garage.

 

[Bountyhunter Niko]

Well - what a week it's been. I have copped some crap over this thread. Nearly enough for me to throw in the whole thing.

I gain nothing for standing up for them. But I cop heaps for doing so.

I don't know AP, FX, MC, DL, ect. I have email contact with them regularly and know them all by name - but that's it. I've brought stuff from most and send heaps of business their way from over here. They owe me nothing. I just love to help people get what they want and from reputable artists I've known for years. And these guys ( and more ) are great to deal with and I get very protective when they get ripped off.

There seems to be that there is nothing I can do except educate. But it's getting very hard with the amount of nasty emails and PM's I'm getting lately.

Thanx to everyone who chimed in here. I never meant for it to become a slanging match between some. Just trying to find info. I think some lessons were learned here.

2 little things will help most people who think recasting is fine.
1 – Spend time here.
2 – Spend time with someone who has sculpted something from scratch.

Time will tell if I stick around.

 

[TheSt.LouisKid]

I have had my work recasted several times and it stinks especially when you see recasts being sold for 80% less than the original price.
Unfortunately get used to being recast. It happens when you don't own something. There are too many people out there who have no skills or if they have the skills they don't take the trouble to use them for some reason. At times there are going to be people who turn up who are going to try and exploit those of us who can make a master pattern.

What can you do? Here are some ideas.
1. Unfortunately, get used to being recast. It happens when you don't own something. ...so you can make props, costumes, etc for things you do own.

2. Make parts with hidden undercuts or parts that are partially assembled so they can't be recast(I think I mentioned that here before).

3. Get the word out if you can about the recaster(as some are doing on this thread already). Many people don't want to buy a copy of a copy but there are going to be some who will still buy if the price is right or if they don't know it's a recast. Moderators at the various boards are not really police so they may do nothing and I suppose you can't expect them to. Fortunately the RPF doesn't approve of recasting and with proof they will act - I know that for a fact and appreciate it. There is one board that will do little and I even had one moderator actually tell me I was "bothering recasters" (via PM as I'm sure he didn't want the public to know he was making a statement that is supportive to recasting)by keeping up to date on their user name changes and emailing to ask them(sometimes more than once) to stop selling copies of my work. "Bothering recasters" is a very odd comment since most customers really don't mind getting a heads up so they don't get screwed on a bad(and trust me, they are bad. I have pics) recast and most fabricators don't mind knowing new user names for talentless people who recast so they can know who not to sell to.

4. Report your recaster findings on PropSafe. http://s1.zetaboards.com/propsafe/index/

5. Try and get a license for items. It's not always pricey but it depends are what the item is. Offhand I know 4 guys here who make officially licensed stuff.

6. If you have the skill work for people who make what you are interested in. I have worked at a makeup effects shop, several prop shops, a company that makes models for model home communities/resorts, and McFarlane Toys just to name some. Working on a fan production level you tend to run into certain problems. Working on a corporate level there are other departments to deal with those things so you don't have to.

7. And document the heck out of any arrangement you make. I have had people say thats silly but when a business deal goes bad nothing does better than to have pictures, written agreements, emails etc to back you up if something needs to go to court. This paragraph may not sound like it pertains to recasting but if you outsource your work another person and over time they want to do their own thing with your castings you will find this advice to be golden.

My 2 cents from my experience.

 

[defstartrooper]

Fortunately the RPF doesn't approve of recasting and with proof they will act

Well that's not strictly true, they don't approve of recasting that's true, but they wont take any action against anyone or stop them selling recasts unless the item that's recast was originally made by an RPF member.
So if you pick something up off eBay or elsewhere or copy a licensed item you're good to go as far as selling the item here is concerned.

 

[Tan Djarka]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Tan Djarka]

I actually wonder what anyone with that kinda of view point has doing on a REPLICA prop forum at all? ... If a person has no concept as to why its bad to take an original artists impression of a prop and recast THAT - why are they even searching these boards? Unless its to find the next easy mark to recast off from.

Because these boards contain a wealth of information on where I can find what I can afford (suprisingly accurate toys) or how to build the things I can't.