Tan Djarka
Sr Member
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the concept of IP established what is right and what is wrong. And apparently it isn't that simple, or there'd be no discussion.
Recasting - what can I do ????
- Thread starter Bountyhunter Niko
- Start date
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the concept of IP established what is right and what is wrong. And apparently it isn't that simple, or there'd be no discussion.
rollerboi
Sr Member
There are countless threads about this. Your tangent is tiresome. Isn't it in the FAQ?
Besides, morals are quite beside the point anyways, since we effectively sidestep the morality of "stealing" from the studios here on the replica prop forum. Once past that point, it then becomes a question of whether it's right to steal from your friend/brother or not.
So if you have no qualms about stealing from us, by all means, stick around and continue to defend recasting. You'll observe firsthand how supply is slowly choked off until you're no longer able to purchase anything truly worthwhile.
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Grey
Sr Member
The simple answer is that there really is no moral justification. The thief will typically try and turn it around on the origional crafter, saying that they're just copying the origional artist's idea like that somehow justifies what they are doing, but what it all boils down to is that people will always want something for nothing, or the cheapest way they can get it. The sad truth is that many people just don't care about things like Integrity or Respect, as long as at the end of the day they get what they want, they are oblivious to anything else.
It's just the way things work, you won't be able to change the fact that someone thinks it's easier to just buy recasted items because they're cheaper, rather than shelling out the extra cash to pay the person who deserves it. Yes, if someone re-creates a set of Stormtrooper armour, they are coping the idea of the original artist and selling it for a Profit. Regardless of any opinions relating to that, they are still putting in the time and effort to re-create it, simply following the design as a 'blueprint' and are therefore still entitled to be paid for thier services, not be undercutted by thieves who would rather copy what someone else has already done so that they can put in minimal effort, and flip it for cheap prices to make a quick buck.
At the end of the day, all you can do is ask yourself what you're in this hobby for and if you've done everything you can do.
It's just the way things work, you won't be able to change the fact that someone thinks it's easier to just buy recasted items because they're cheaper, rather than shelling out the extra cash to pay the person who deserves it. Yes, if someone re-creates a set of Stormtrooper armour, they are coping the idea of the original artist and selling it for a Profit. Regardless of any opinions relating to that, they are still putting in the time and effort to re-create it, simply following the design as a 'blueprint' and are therefore still entitled to be paid for thier services, not be undercutted by thieves who would rather copy what someone else has already done so that they can put in minimal effort, and flip it for cheap prices to make a quick buck.
At the end of the day, all you can do is ask yourself what you're in this hobby for and if you've done everything you can do.
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Tan Djarka
Sr Member
You're replicating props that do exist (excepting recreations of items in animated features), aren't you? It's not your design or idea, so if it's not stealing, what is it?
And trust me, I'm never going to recast anything. I build things for myself, and ocassionally give things away. People insist I should sell my stuff on Ebay, but I refuse. I really don't feel comfortable selling something that isn't genuinely mine, no matter how much effort I put into it.
If I ever come up with something that is 100% my idea, I may consider it, but until then I'm selling anything.
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i feel recasting is very bad. some really talented people spend months researching, sculpting, molding , and casting a new prop all out of their pocket before they sell anything. most do not actively try to sell them either. they build the prop for thier personal costume and other people like what they are doing and want one. so they sell them one. only to have have someone come along and buy the prop and make a mold. then start selling in mass on ebay or whatever. usauly for less and the level of quaility is not as good as the original not only burning the original maker but the unsuspecting buyer as well.
the recaster did not spend the time or the money to bring that prop to life , he just stole all the time and hardwork the prop maker put in to that prop.
to me recasting someone's helmet or armor is as bad as sleeping with his wife. he does not own the woman but it does not make it right for you to sleep with her either.
the recaster did not spend the time or the money to bring that prop to life , he just stole all the time and hardwork the prop maker put in to that prop.
to me recasting someone's helmet or armor is as bad as sleeping with his wife. he does not own the woman but it does not make it right for you to sleep with her either.
Grey
Sr Member
Your arguement might hold water in a debate between you and a prop maker, but as a defense for Recasting it's horribly thought out and you should be able to see that. The Recaster isn't stealing from the Prop Master who designed the origional prop, he's stealing from the guy who replicated it. Regardless of where he got the idea, he is stealing the work HE did to recreate the helment, not stealing the work the origional prop master did. If your arguement is not intendend to defend recasting, then you should just get out of this thread because all your doing is trying to start pointless drama and steer things off-topic.
Tan Djarka
Sr Member
My tangent is no less tiresome than the whole apparent moral dilemna over recasting.
I have qulams over stealing from anyone, friend, brother, or otherwise. I'm not defending recasting so much as I am questioning an apparently self serving moral distinction.
And cutting off my supply of "anything truly worthwhile" isn't much of a threat. First of all, I really don't have that kind of money, even for second rate recast. Second, and most importantly, I take pride in my craftsmanship and 99.9% of the "replicas" I own I fabricated by hand myself. I have recently aquired some machined and manufactured parts, but they are in the vast minority within my collection.
Let's have a look at the 501st Charter, shall we?
B. COSTUMING STANDARDS - The 501st Legion promotes creating, owning, and wearing the costumes of the Imperial Forces and denizens as featured in the Star Wars films and expanded universe. To capture the magic of these characters, the goal will always be the accurate presentation and portrayal of these costumes.
The official stance on recasting:
The 501st is acting against its own resolution, namely NOT to support or encourage recasting. Those members of the 501st who do so are going against Council Resolution 1, including the LCO.
Not only that, the charter itself has specific requirements for canon costume accuracy and authenticity.
In fact, it is therefore part of the 501st mission that members strive for excellence not only in community service, promotion of Star Wars, but also striving for the best costumes possible.
Collectors outside of the 501st have their own interest, namely in acquiring the most authentic Star Wars props, pieces, replicas, etc. at whatever personal cost. The effort and cost that goes into such activity far outweighs whatever effort any given 501st member would put into a single costume, although I realize many 501st members have several costumes.
All 501st members I would assume would wish to have the most accurate costumes possible at a reasonable cost....reasonable cost. But a costume, if highly accurate, screen accurate even, becomes a collectible, and not simply a set of pieces for costuming.
If the 501st does not officially support or condone recasting, and if it is part of their mandate to have authentic-looking costumes in which to troop, then the 501st must recognize that if they are to gain the trust of the Star Wars prop and prop replica collecting community, they have to show that they are serious about what that community stands for. It is not about honor amongst thieves, it is about trust among collectors in the community who are willing to share rare pieces with like-minded collectors. Members of the 501st do not wish to show that they have respect for other communities, yet they themselves expect other communities to respect the work they do to promote Star Wars?
Let us use Vader as an example, something I am personally familiar with. There is a particular population of Vader helmets within the 501st and their sources are largely either licensed or recast. When I trooped for a special event for the 501st, instead of wearing what I found out later on was a recast helmet, I wore one of my own acquisitions and the other members noticed a difference. The public won't notice the difference, but as costumers we take pride in knowing that our Boba helmets have that accurate wear pattern or if that cape has the accurate length and weave. That is part of what the costuming hobby is all about. Collectors who create authentic costumes for display share the same passion. We can all learn from each other. But instead, those few in the 501st, and I will emphasize few, feel that they can change the boundaries of what 501st members can do with impunity even if it adversely affects other communities. They show a complete disregard for what other communities hold sacred. So why should those other communities hold any regard for the 501st? In the end, we all lose.
The 501st has to recognize that there are fundamental codes of conduct, written or unwritten, in collecting communities outside the 501st. LFL recognizes that the 501st needs to equip its members with accurate costumes so they accept that 501st members will make parts for those costumes to sell to one another. Likewise, LFL would similarly recognize if small group of collectors decides to share a collectible amongst themselves without starting a business or advertising a product. There is no difference except that the 501st seems to think that because it is recognized by LFL that it has license to take what it wants from whatever source. That is not the case, because sources outside the 501st are privately owned by collectors and taking a copy of that source to make copies to sell is theft. The owner of the source doesn't have rights and therefore cannot take legal action, but it is theft nonetheless and is done without permission or regard for the collector who took the effort to obtain that authentic piece, usually at great cost or as a result of extensive research and networking with members of the collecting community over time. For someone to just take a copy of that person's collectible and sell copies to anyone and without regard for the collector's original investment is reprehensible. But they do. It is a shame that because of a few in the 501st with this attitude, all 501st members will lose out in being able to attain the most authentic and screen-accurate costumes available. I like the 501st, I respect it, and I enjoyed my time with it. But if I was considering selling anything to a collector who I found out was a 501st member, the fact he or she was a 501st member would force me to seriously reconsider. Because of the attitude of a few, all members will be affected. And that is really a sad thing for the Star Wars community as a whole, that we cannot trust one another.
Sorry Albin, there is nothing noble about recasting.
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Tan Djarka
Sr Member
Then perhaps the thread title should be changed to reflect the topic? "Everybody Needs to Quit the 501st Because They Support Recasting... Who's With Me?" might be appropriate.
And point taken. I'm not winning any converts here, so I'll just vacate the thread. This argument will never be settled anyway.
Morg
New Member
Interpretation is everything especially in this point. (as in a persons view of a character)
It is no different than being in art class and being asked to draw a still life object. Draw it, interpret it, and make it your own. As in OWNERSHIP is of your own interpretation of said art work. Fast forward to this subject and you have several kinds of POV. someone doing it because they love it, someone selling it to supliment their hobby, someone selling for profit and recasting an individuals interpretation to make a quick buck on someone else's hard work. Regardless, what some are saying that is the immorality of the subject.
I get the arguement and the whole IP thing and what not, like Spike has said, you really do have to ask yourself what you are in this hobby for. Bummed it is such a giant mess that no one can agree on, but then again isn't it always like this when it comes to a difference of opinion? You can argue until you're Blue in the face, you will always find someone who has a different POV they want to run with no matter the subject.
It is no different than being in art class and being asked to draw a still life object. Draw it, interpret it, and make it your own. As in OWNERSHIP is of your own interpretation of said art work. Fast forward to this subject and you have several kinds of POV. someone doing it because they love it, someone selling it to supliment their hobby, someone selling for profit and recasting an individuals interpretation to make a quick buck on someone else's hard work. Regardless, what some are saying that is the immorality of the subject.
I get the arguement and the whole IP thing and what not, like Spike has said, you really do have to ask yourself what you are in this hobby for. Bummed it is such a giant mess that no one can agree on, but then again isn't it always like this when it comes to a difference of opinion? You can argue until you're Blue in the face, you will always find someone who has a different POV they want to run with no matter the subject.
TMP
Sr Member
What is this nonces... Of cource you can take action towards recasters. I think it comes down to it localy. If you have a maker in your garrison then another one copying directly off then its totaly wrong. How can you trust your fellow members and be part of same group?
You can still take actions. Atleast make it more dificult for the person.
If a person work hard to make some good peices by actually sculpting, then i dont dont think anyone should come about recast it to proffit from it. But it should be encouraged to not buy from recasters, and if bought knowing its a recaster then dont accept the person.
Its really the mentality the leaders provide downwards the ranks of members thats reflect. But i got a feeling that its many leaders our there is 501st that got to much personal investments, intrest in allowing recast due to there personal role in the profit of it. Sadly.
You can still take actions. Atleast make it more dificult for the person.
If a person work hard to make some good peices by actually sculpting, then i dont dont think anyone should come about recast it to proffit from it. But it should be encouraged to not buy from recasters, and if bought knowing its a recaster then dont accept the person.
Its really the mentality the leaders provide downwards the ranks of members thats reflect. But i got a feeling that its many leaders our there is 501st that got to much personal investments, intrest in allowing recast due to there personal role in the profit of it. Sadly.
TMP
Sr Member
If 501st condone and allow recasting to happend, then that also allow members to recast linced c3po, r2d2, or other licenced props by LFL.... I dont belive LFL condone to this and i hope LFL will contact the leaders of 501st to let them know about their guidelines and make them remember.
If there is no rule, no line or guildelines / instructions then its free to do whatever they want. I do not support this and nor does the Nordic Garrison.
If there is no rule, no line or guildelines / instructions then its free to do whatever they want. I do not support this and nor does the Nordic Garrison.
HILDEBEAST
Active Member
I know a little bit about recasting and copyrights issues as I have filed two multimillion dollar lawsuits against companies stealing my designs. Unless you are the holder of a copyright or a patent for a certain item their will always be individuals and big companies who will steal your designs and ideas and try to get away with it and there is really nothing you can do.
You can't control people or companies but you can control how you handle it. Let it go and enjoy your life or your letting them win. Protect yourself as best you can but if your item doesn't warrant a copyright or protection you are basically just out there hoping no one will recast or steal your design and unfortunately there is always someone with little morals who will try to make money off your hard work.
I designed 2 Christian pieces of jewelry and a big named Christian company I was partnered with simply stole my designs and started making them in their own company and cut me out. One design became the signature piece for the Mel Gibson film "Passion of the ******" film and earned the company selling it upwards of 5 million dollars, money I didn't see. The other design has earned the company approximately 15 million dollars. I did sue the same company twice a they settled twice. This company has paid me a small fraction of what they have made from my design. Not a bad day when you keep the majority of the profits of someone else's design.
My advice is protect your design best you can...if you can't then expect it to get recast or stolen then your not surprised when it happens....HILDEBEAST
You can't control people or companies but you can control how you handle it. Let it go and enjoy your life or your letting them win. Protect yourself as best you can but if your item doesn't warrant a copyright or protection you are basically just out there hoping no one will recast or steal your design and unfortunately there is always someone with little morals who will try to make money off your hard work.
I designed 2 Christian pieces of jewelry and a big named Christian company I was partnered with simply stole my designs and started making them in their own company and cut me out. One design became the signature piece for the Mel Gibson film "Passion of the ******" film and earned the company selling it upwards of 5 million dollars, money I didn't see. The other design has earned the company approximately 15 million dollars. I did sue the same company twice a they settled twice. This company has paid me a small fraction of what they have made from my design. Not a bad day when you keep the majority of the profits of someone else's design.
My advice is protect your design best you can...if you can't then expect it to get recast or stolen then your not surprised when it happens....HILDEBEAST
RBJ
Sr Member
..I really gave it my all with trying to get some change from within to happen..since I quit, I no longer have acess to the thread on the proposed change ( maybe Andy will share some of the gems from that thread:love), but I assure you it was pretty tame..sort of a baby step ..and at least SOMETHING..but the 501st is not interested in stopping the flow of cheap troopable costumes..or in protecting the very people who make more accurate pieces available..and some of the loudest opponents to a change in policy were the officers of the 501st.
I appreciate what you tried to do , I agree trying to educate new people coming in is key but its kind of hard when you have Albin running around saying stuff that does nothing more than promote recasting.Like for instance"come on guys who cares its like calling the cops saying someone stole your weed."
Ummm no its not really.So people who were thinking of recasting basically just got the thumbs up from the all mighty founder.Personally until he hangs up his fan made armor he troops in and starts wearing Rubies TK armor what he says doesnt hold any water.
Prop makers whether scratch builders or screen used casters are the only ones at the moment who provide accurate costumes approved for 501st membership so why not help out the guys who make the crap you wear a little? makes no sense to me.
And another point is the 501st vote on changing recasting rules is ONLY voted on by the garrison Co's and legion council NOT the actually everday membership.How much was the vote influenced by Albin having a "ahh who cares" attitude ALOT im sure considering the amount of apple bad polishing that goes on when he is around.
The vote was something like 70% no change 23% change..that just tells me there is 70% of the 501st leadership that is crooked in one form or another either recasting them selves or have buddies who are.
The 501st isnt about brotherhood its all about who you grease right.There is a certain prop maker who has been witnessed recasting items at prop parties, but because he greased the right people and bought the right friends he is untouchable.So kids spend money on the right friends and grease the right wheels and your golden.
I honestly think if the membership was actually allowed to vote on the recasting issue the outcome would be alot different.
But reproduce a patch,sticker or T-shirt without their permission bearing the 501st logo and see them come out of the woodwork to protect "their" item.Come you guys you cant have it both ways.
I have also seen non 501st members recast 501st members items and be kicked out of forums for it but if a 501st member recasts a non 501st members stuff they say "sorry nothing we can do about it he is in the 501st and has a right to access this forum."
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Years ago it used to be "only sell to 501st member because you'll be less likely to be recast."
Now in the last several moths about 6 guys that have been caught red handed recasting are ALL 501st members and those are just the ones we know about.
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FON
Well-Known Member
The thread on the Aussie forum
http://forum.501tag.com/index.php?showtopic=7064&hl=
Its laughable that one hs actually claimed ignorance.
I'm not sure how long the thread will remain. Not long probly... by the way the moderators are going to town
http://forum.501tag.com/index.php?showtopic=7064&hl=
Its laughable that one hs actually claimed ignorance.
I'm not sure how long the thread will remain. Not long probly... by the way the moderators are going to town
tk1055
Sr Member
RBJ, I am sorry to see you go. I am very unhappy with the decision and will not sell to any 501st members. Rebel legion is another story at least they have it in their charter ( funny isn't it RL can do what 501st can't without worry of LFL coming down on them).
I feel all we got was lip service. Those of us who wanted change kept shooting down excuse after excuse it seemed till we were told LFL wouldn't like it.
I feel all we got was lip service. Those of us who wanted change kept shooting down excuse after excuse it seemed till we were told LFL wouldn't like it.
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