Problematic issues with iconic film stories
- Thread starter drusselmeyer
- Start date
It's an interesting idea. But I doubt the intent of the scene was that complex in 1977.
Yes, exactly. I don't have the quote handy, but I really like this way that George put the Force's accessibility:
He said that anyone can learn to use the Force, just like anyone can learn karate or kung fu. But there are those with greater natural talent. So not everyone can be a Luke Skywalker, just like the fact that not everyone can be a Bruce Lee.
Solo4114
Master Member
I saw this film probably around 1989 or '90, and even then, as an adolescent, I knew that was some f-ed up stuff. Like, I get that it was part of the "sex comedy romp" films of the 80s, going back to Animal House (which has its own similarly and deeply problematic stuff -- like the 14-year-old Pinto hooks up with), but...yeah, that whole genre tended to have stuff that just does not hold up to modern scrutiny. I won't get too much further into it, but it's more of an indictment of the culture writ large than the films themselves. It was just in the air, really, and not in a good way.
Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff in both the Bond novels and the Bond films that is quite simply very "of its time" and, again, not in a good way. There's lots of stuff about them that's cool, but even in the 90s when Judi Dench is telling him he's a sexist misogynist dinosaur, she's...not wrong. Those films are enjoyable to me in spite of those elements.
But that's also part of why I think Bond just...doesn't really work anymore. The most recent, final Craig one was incredibly dull to me. Quantum of Solace is basically unwatchable due to the editing of the action scenes (this might be one very limited use case for AI to try to make those scenes comprehensible), but I'm not sure what you can do with Bond that makes the character or the films distinct in the modern world.
Personally, I'd be fine if they never made another Bond film, although I doubt that'll happen. They'll update it, put in a new actor, STILL refuse to do the "It's a codename" thing, and it'll just be more Generic McSpyguy adventures, just with a brand name slapped on top of it.
I still think all of this boils down to, no, George didn't have A plan. He had many plans, and they kinda mushed together and evolved over time.
You can see a bunch of this in the The Star Wars comic published by Dark Horse a few years ago (if you can get your hands on it...I don't think it's been republished since Marvel got the SW rights for comics). It's based on an early draft of the first film. Interesting stuff, and gets back to things like Vader not being Luke's father and such, not to mention Luke and the princess (whom I think is not named Leia) not being related and definitely being romantically involved.
Gary Kurtz's memories, from what I recall, are that Leia would've wound up ruling after the defeat of the Emperor, with the love triangle between her, Luke, and Han ending up with (I think) her not ending up with either, and Luke sort of wandering the land like Kane from Kung-Fu or somesuch. (Probably with some allusions to the end of Shane, knowing Lucas.)
As for the "I've always known" line, I think that's just George not being an especially good writer. Because, well...he's not. He never has been. He's an idea guy, with AMAZING ideas, but execution always required other people collaborating with him to bring out the best in his work.
As for other problematic films, well, there's a TON of conventions in westerns, both in terms of the stories and in terms of how the films were made that I think are problematic today. We'll start with something on the "minor" end: how horses were handled. You know that thing in old westerns where a bunch of horses are hauling ass at a full gallop and then they stumble and the riders tumble off of them? That was usually done either using a tripline or some kind of pit, and it could end up injuring the horses, meaning they'd usually have to be put down. Just to get a shot. I've heard that 6 horses were killed in the making of The Man From Snowy River, for that one climactic scene at the end where he rides straight down the gorge. Might be an urban legend, but it's believable to me. Stuff like that I find to be incredibly problematic, and have for decades. Nobody does that now, obviously, because there's no need to.
Other stuff includes things like the general depiction of Native Americans as "savages," often as faceless monsters. And then, of course, there's the issue that a lot of the "Indians" you see are actually just white dudes in redface. Also problematic these days. There's some similar stuff with films like Zulu, which basically just takes the concept of the beseiged western fort and sticks it at Rorke's Drift. The flipside is that you can watch Zulu Dawn and see the redcoats get slaughtered, although even there, the Zulus aren't really treated like people, but rather like a horde of creatures. Still, it's marginally better insofar as it depicts the political machinations involved in the English provoking war with them.
On the flipside, the action of Zulu is still amazing, and if it was, like, a scifi film with space soldiers being swarmed by ravenous aliens or something, it'd be fine. (Although, even in Starship Troopers, where you basically have this exact scenario, it's STRONGLY IMPLIED that the bugs are defending territory, and the idiot Earthers are just fascist expansionist jackasses who used an unrelated global tragedy as a casus belli for their expansionism.) But hey, it's Paul Verhoeven, and he loves messing with his audiences (well, the American ones, at least). See also, Robocop.
Laspector
Master Member
I have a question on something that might be problematic, might not, you tell me. This has nothing to do with social issue aging badly, just a plot point. In the movie 2010: The Year We Make Contact the monoliths detonate Jupiter to advance life on Europa. Wouldn't a detonation of that magnitude totally obliterate the moons? Or at least completely mess up their orbits?
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, I'd expect so, but I'm not an astrophysicist. I've never seen 2010. I expect that'd also cause...uh... A FEW issues for the solar system overall if a massive gravitational force suddenly exploded and disappeared. Like, would that throw off Earth's orbit? Even if it did only slightly, that could destroy all life on Earth, no?
Lightning
Master Member
but Pinto doesn't hook up with her. After he finds out her age/she passes out, they do the Angel/Devil bit and he takes her home in the shopping cart.
I think the degree of planning in Star Wars gets a lot of talk because it depends on what the yardstick is.
George's planning was not much for a modern trilogy. The OT didn't really have much more planning than Disney's ST when you get right down to it. Lucas & his collaborators just got away with it better because they had good creative instincts.
Lucas did a lot of pre-planning for what it was. ANH was a mid-1970s Flash Gordon remake. The idea of that movie getting multiple $30m sequels was absurd in 1975.
George's planning was not much for a modern trilogy. The OT didn't really have much more planning than Disney's ST when you get right down to it. Lucas & his collaborators just got away with it better because they had good creative instincts.
Lucas did a lot of pre-planning for what it was. ANH was a mid-1970s Flash Gordon remake. The idea of that movie getting multiple $30m sequels was absurd in 1975.
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They blew up Jupiter?! damn!
yeah, that would necessarily destroy the moons or they would at least go spinning in the universe.
And, Jupiter and Saturn are the best protectors to our solar system, They are the most massive and attract a lot of meteors. Destroying one would most likely mess with the orbits of all planets and would also cause much more meteors to crash on the other planets.
I think blowing up Jupiter would kill life on Earth yes.
AnubisGuard
Master Member
It's not a detonation in the sense of blowing something up. The monoliths increased Jupiter's density until nuclear fusion could begin. The diameter of the planet decreased with gravity remaining the same. (Same mass + smaller diameter = greater density.)
Solo4114
Master Member
You forgot about when they sleep together on the football field. I mean, yeah, the drunk scene he at least kinda sorta does the right thing, but then they definitely hook up later.
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
For 2010. I'm certain the monoloiths know what they are doing to make it happen without disruption anything else but the Jupiter orbit.
Lightning
Master Member
is that bit edited out of the TV versions?
Solo4114
Master Member
Maybe? I honestly don't know. I mean, look, at the end of the day, it's a college freshman banging a 13- or 14-year-old girl. The actor was, I think, 19 or 20 at the time, but we're basically playing statutory rape for laughs here. And yeah, I know that in the early 60s, those kinds of relationships happened. But still. When viewed through the lens of modernity, it's...problematic.
joberg
Legendary Member
We are dealing with an advanced E.T. entity...they know what to do as to not start a massive planetary problem
Laspector
Master Member
But, in the movie there is a massive shockwave following the "turning it into a star". This is what I am talking about. Wouldn't that destroy the moons?
AnubisGuard
Master Member
IIRC there's no mention of a shockwave in the book (it's been a long time since I read it so I may be wrong.) The book is primary here; the movie is an adaptation and kind of an inconstant one as far as visuals go -- sometimes, the Leonov's command module has gravity, other times it doesn't, that sort of thing. I wouldn't put much stock in what it's showing.
That said, the realistic answer would be "it depends." How much mass is being ejected? If it's not very much, say if it's a thin plasma, it wouldn't do much. The biggest problem would probably be the ejection stripping away Europa's very thin atmosphere, which would actually be an ongoing problem for the moons since the new star would have it own solar wind that would scour the moons' surfaces. Europa (according to Wiki) has a weak magnetic field but it's about 400 to 500 time weaker than Earth's. That's not going to do very much to protect it; for example Mars' lack of a magnetic field is why it no longer has an atmosphere. The solar wind stripped it away a long time ago.
So that's a whole other problem the monolith aliens would have to deal with. Suffice to say if they have the power to collapse Jupiter and plant life on Europa, they probably have the ability to deal with all these other issues too.
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Too Much Garlic
Master Member
I saw the shockwave as a spark to boost the moons and the rest of the solar system for a new sun and what was needed to really start life on the moons and make them sustainable. And a audio and visual signal to Earth to stay away. It's basically a mini big-bang performed under controlled conditions to achieve what the monoliths wants achieved.
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