Problematic issues with iconic film stories

[drusselmeyer]

Lately, I have noticed a lot of criticism of older films and acceptance of newer (as I see it; seriously flawed) films, TV etc.

I do recognize that many of the older even iconic films of the past are seriously flawed at times and that this is a justified criticism, whether it is plot, pacing or resolution etc.

Which older, iconic films have serious flaws?

 

[joberg]

Lately, I have noticed a lot of criticism of older films and acceptance of newer (as I see it; seriously flawed) films, TV etc.

I do recognize that many of the older even iconic films of the past are seriously flawed at times and that this is a justified criticism, whether it is plot, pacing or resolution etc.

Which older, iconic films have serious flaws?

None, of course

 

[Astyanax]

My all-time favorite movie is Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977). For me, it is Spielberg at his best, and it captures the awe and wonder of "what's out there." I re-watch pretty much every year, and always have a warm fuzzy feeling about it. It's kind of a real-world take on the "longing for adventure", Luke Skywalker kind of thing, you know?

That is, until my wife pointed out that we're meant to empathize with what is essentially a deadbeat dad who abandoned his family to follow a feeling. Is this not a tragedy instead?

 

[TuckerMan]

Blade Runner. My favorite movie about androids, created to be slaves, that decide they don't want to be slaves anymore. A man is hired to hunt down and kill these escaped slaves, manages to rape one of them along the way, and we're supposed to root for the rapist slave hunter.

Perfect example of the protagonist not being a good guy/hero.

 

[batguy]

My all-time favorite movie is Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977). For me, it is Spielberg at his best, and it captures the awe and wonder of "what's out there." I re-watch pretty much every year, and always have a warm fuzzy feeling about it. It's kind of a real-world take on the "longing for adventure", Luke Skywalker kind of thing, you know?

That is, until my wife pointed out that we're meant to empathize with what is essentially a deadbeat dad who abandoned his family to follow a feeling. Is this not a tragedy instead?

The Berg himself has admitted the same thing. He wrote the movie in his 20s before he had a family. Later in life he could no longer imagine writing the character that way anymore.

BTW Speilberg also never wanted to show the inside of the alien ship in the special edition. He did that purely because the studio wanted a marketing gimmick for a re-release, and he now considers it a mistake.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

My all-time favorite movie is Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977). For me, it is Spielberg at his best, and it captures the awe and wonder of "what's out there." I re-watch pretty much every year, and always have a warm fuzzy feeling about it. It's kind of a real-world take on the "longing for adventure", Luke Skywalker kind of thing, you know?

That is, until my wife pointed out that we're meant to empathize with what is essentially a deadbeat dad who abandoned his family to follow a feeling. Is this not a tragedy instead?

That hit me when I rewatched it for the first time since I was little. We got our first DVD player around 1997 or so and that was one of the first I got. I watched it and said to my dad that this guy is actually a crap dad to leave his family like that!

I just find the new warnings amusing because in the past we were mature adults who could differentiate stories from real life. I just saw that a new Indiana Jones game has a warning to tell people it's a story and not an endorsement of the Nazis... How long until the movies have that warning?

 

[batguy]

Sort of a beef with 'Back to the Future' -

I think Eric Stolz's take was valid. The situation that Marty found himself in was friggin traumatic. Horrifying. Terrifying. The movie was able to play it for a light-hearted joke because of the sci-fi element. The premise is so wild and removed from real life. It keeps viewers distracted by gimmicks for 2 hours.

 

[HeartBlade]

I think collegehumor pointed this out but alot of older comedies have "sex without consent" or "sex through trickery" be a very big part of their "humor" (Revenge of the Nerds, Van Wilder).

 

[batguy]

I think collegehumor pointed this out but alot of older comedies have "sex without consent" or "sex through trickery" be a very big part of their "humor" (Revenge of the Nerds, Van Wilder).

That always bugged me too.

1980s-era teenage humor was just brutal in general. They tricked a lot of girls into things and they also spent a lot of time humiliating nerdy guys.

It's ironic that the 1980s are so beloved by the nerdy/geek/gamer/artsy culture in hindsight. At the time that crowd was getting worse treatment than in 1990s-later.

 

[Ron]

That hit me when I rewatched it for the first time since I was little. We got our first DVD player around 1997 or so and that was one of the first I got. I watched it and said to my dad that this guy is actually a crap dad to leave his family like that!

I just find the new warnings amusing because in the past we were mature adults who could differentiate stories from real life. I just saw that a new Indiana Jones game has a warning to tell people it's a story and not an endorsement of the Nazis... How long until the movies have that warning?

Oh boy. Sounds like modern day thinking alright. Because the type of personality that would find Nazism appealing would totally think better about it after reading a warning of course. If only the Indiana Jones trilogy had such a warning then humanity might've achieved world peace.

Thanks for nothing, Spielberg.

 

[joberg]

My all-time favorite movie is Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977). For me, it is Spielberg at his best, and it captures the awe and wonder of "what's out there." I re-watch pretty much every year, and always have a warm fuzzy feeling about it. It's kind of a real-world take on the "longing for adventure", Luke Skywalker kind of thing, you know?

That is, until my wife pointed out that we're meant to empathize with what is essentially a deadbeat dad who abandoned his family to follow a feeling. Is this not a tragedy instead?

It's bigger than him I think that this thread is like 20/20 vision. Now, after X amount of years, you're re-thinking some aspects of your movie...and so what? It's there, it's movie history made at the time. Don't cry over spilt milk

 

[Astyanax]

It's bigger than him

It means something. It's important.

 

[Cephus]

It's a problem with the inability to understand that everything is a product of its time. Lots of people simply cannot understand that. They think everything has to reflect "modern values", which is positively stupid.

 

[3Dsf]

Lots of movies from the 70s and 80s were thoroughly obnoxious, especially in terms of the way women and "nerds" were portrayed and treated. It was super common for films to have plots in which a woman would be betrayed or put down in some fashion, but gosh she forgives the guy who did it because he's so lovable, or whatever. And skinny guys with glasses were just the butt of jokes, or generally pushed around, and simply served plot points.

Lots of people loved Ghostbusters. I didn't. I thought it was mildly entertaining, but hated the fact that we were supposed to root for a frat boy bully because he's supposedly funny, and laugh at the pathetic bespectacled nerd. I don't feel any different about the film today.

I don't think it's a matter of the films changing, or even just of societal attitudes changing particularly. I think the way you look at a film as an adult, rather than as a kid, has tons to do with it.

 

[batguy]

Lots of people loved Ghostbusters. I didn't. I thought it was mildly entertaining, but hated the fact that we were supposed to root for a frat boy bully because he's supposedly funny, and laugh at the pathetic bespectacled nerd. I don't feel any different about the film today.

That's gotta be the first time I've heard that take on GB.

I know a few genuine nerds from that generation and they love the movie. They still quote it.

The movie does dunk on Moranis's character. But they poked plenty of fun at Harold Ramis's nerdy mojo too, and he was one of the creatives in charge. I always felt like the movie was nerds roasting fellow nerds and that's different from jocks doing it.

IMO Bill Murray seemed more like a struggling class clown than a frat guy. I suppose he was the frattiest guy in a nerdy group.

I get the dislike for Murray's character though. He was pretty douchey if you judged it based on the script alone. The actor's comedy & charm was the only thing that saved it. In that first visit to Sigourney Weaver's apartment he was asking to get kicked in the nuts.

 

[Astyanax]

That's gotta be the first time I've heard that take on GB.

I know a few genuine nerds from that generation and they love the movie. They still quote it.

The movie does dunk on Moranis's character. But they poked plenty of fun at Harold Ramis's nerdy mojo too, and he was one of the creatives in charge. I always felt like the movie was nerds roasting fellow nerds and that's different from jocks doing it.

IMO Bill Murray seemed more like a struggling class clown than a frat guy. I suppose he was the frattiest guy in a nerdy group.

I get the dislike for Murray's character though. He was pretty douchey if you judged it based on the script alone. The actor's comedy & charm was the only thing that saved it. In that first visit to Sigourney Weaver's apartment he was asking to get kicked in the nuts.

I agree with your take, completely. And Peter was constantly outclassed in the science side of things, a poser even in the very first scene, so I don't think the film glorifies him over the others. For example, Egon telling Peter to collect a slime sample, and in the second movie a stool sample..."You're the dumb jock, make yourself useful." Or Egon hand-signaling Peter how much to charge.

Peter's just hot air and he knows it. That's how he survives: as the "heart" of the team.

 

[Lightning]

Peter's just hot air and he knows it. That's how he survives: as the "heart" of the team.

Ray is the heart, Peter is the mouth, Egon is the brains, and Winston's role keeps changing.

 

[NeoRutty]

Why did Peter bring “knock out drugs” (300 cc’s of thorazine) on his DATE with Dana!?!!?

And I only saw Revenge of the Nerds for the first time this year.

Um… wow.

The whole Vader mask “love scene” was wild.

 

[Astyanax]

Why did Peter bring “knock out drugs” (300 cc’s of thorazine) on his DATE with Dana!?!!?

I would put that more in the category of "convenient plot hole" than intentional reflection on Peter.

Besides, he's just a plain weirdo in so many ways:

 

[NeoRutty]

I would put that more in the category of "convenient plot hole" than intentional reflection on Peter.

Besides, he's just a plain weirdo in so many ways:

View attachment 1878494

Yeah was more a joke. I never noticed til my buddy pointed it out.

He went further “why does he even have that on him? Peter doesn’t strike me as a guy who takes work home with him”