Paint colors for X-Wing, Snow speeder & AT-AT

Does anyone know what colors they used on the originals? Or what colrs would be close? I'm guessing they might be Floquil paints. I know any grey would work. just wondering what the "right" color may be. These are just the cheap AMT models from Walmart. Thanks.

 

I can say with great certainty that the color I painted the MR AT-AT and Snowspeeder was successfully copied by the factory, and that the color I used was a match

So find an MR SS model and match the grey.

The X-Wings are trickier... they're darker than they appear onscreen - I have painted mine a little creamy, to ape the way the SS Models have aged... but I think the next one I do will be the same grey I used for the ATAT and Snowspeeder.

At the end of the day, I say use what YOU think looks right.

 

Thanks Moff. I was going to try and match the MR AT-AT. I just figured with all the different kits people have done there would have been a color that everyone used

 

There's a light grey Tamiya paint, straight out of the bottle that's pretty close. Add some white and a smidge of green (if you can believe it) and you're on your way.

 

Thanks Moff. I'll have to give that a try.

 

I've always found that Model Master's Camo Gray works nicely for the X-wing and other Star Wars craft. With some weathering it comes out pretty good.

 

I agree

http://www.blockheadpictures.com/finished2.jpg

 

Nice pic JDH. Impressive. What did you use for the weathering paint or powders? I'll have to start checking for some paints. Thanks.

 

If you're into true accuracy Floquils were used on all of the originals except for the x-wing which was painted gloss white first (call me crazy I know. but getting information from the source helps too 0 but it was finished and weathered with floquils as well as the speeders and At-At's. I think a color called Concrete was used on a couple but the real deal to getting the color right is all about how you weather which actually changes your base color when done.

Lee

 

I used a combination of powders and different oil paints. Powders first then oils

JDH

 

Yes, I'd definitely go along with Rogue on that; the base colour is white. The weathering - which might, of course, include an all-over dirty wash - is what makes the X-wings look grey.

It's all very well saying that somebody got a pantone match after the fact, but they're matching the colour of the already weathered model, not the base colour that it was originally painted.

 

Hey Lee, I was hoping you'd reply. I know you're one of the experts on these things.

About the gloss white, does it have to be gloss or can I just use white primer?

Concrete is the base color then?

Any ides on the weathering technique, i.e paints or powders or anything else?

 

If I recall correctly, Bill George mentioned a black primer under the gloss white, where as the gloss was knocked down with steel wool or something to that effect...

 

I don't recall ever seeing black primer. I have seen dark grey.

So it would be Black primer, Gloss white sanded, Concrete then weathering?

 

I agree as well that the base color is white. The layers of weathering darkens the white considerably making it seem like it's gray. At least that is my theory on it.

I'll post a pic later of my CC build-up. It's still on the bench until I can get some motivation to finish the weathering in and around the rear engines.CC X-Wing in progress

 

I misunderstood Lee's post and missed Miniaturizer Ray's altogether. :$ White does seem rather strange. I could see how the weathering turns the white grey though. Interseting.

Nice work on your CC X-Wing Tony. :thumbsup

 

Just prime it black then get some auto gloss paint I think it was like Ford Diamond white but any good white gloss will do. Then you have to use either a scotch brite pad or some fine grain sand paper to mar the gloss finish but make sure you let the gloss coat dry a few days before sanding and take it from there.

Lee

 

I've seen krylon pewter gray used for the starwars ships....it is so close to white, almost a tint to the gray side. The base color is white. Just remember...in the star wars universe the rebel ships were filthy from heavy use. While the empires ships were always pristine. Good weathering will bring up the white to the correct tint.

 

I'm a little confused with the white. If you dull it down why not just use a flat white? I usually use white primer which already has a matte finish. Are you dulling the gloss so it's more of a semi-gloss?

The weathering is the part that will give me probelms. I'll have to try some scrap pieces first.

 

Good question but that is how they did it also gives a less all dull paint look it. hard to explain but it's looks more professional.

Lee

 

Thanks. This is turning out to be more work than I thought it would be. :lol

 

This model started out gloss white no dulcote was ever used on it.

Lee

 

The paint used as the base color on all X-wings, Y-wings and the MF in ANH was Krylon Platinum Gray. It is not the same Platinum Gray available today, which is much darker. The closest match to what Krylon made in 1976 is Testors Camouflage Gray, though it is a bit on the pink side.

I have to point out that any paint info given by Bill George would only be accurate for ESB and later-- he did not work on ANH. My information comes from several people who did work (and paint) on that film, people I used to work with. When I was doing the research for my SS X-wing they were most helpful.

For ESB, Red 5 was a new, much larger model and if Bill says they used gloss white I can not dispute it. From what I know of the way base coats and weathering appear on film, gloss white makes no sense-- even with a flat black primer under it. But, none of that is important since the modeler really needs to determine what it is he's actually trying to achieve.

If you are building a model that duplicates an FX model, then the exact colors and how they were applied is important.

If you are building a model that duplicates what is seen on the screen, then you need to use your eye to determine what color to use. Why?

We'll take the X-wing as an example. This ship is supposed to be white with color markings on the fuselage, engine cowls and wings. If it were brand new, all of this would be bright and probably shiny. But, in the Star Wars world, especially the Rebel sections, these ships are old and well worn and the paint has suffered. That's what they want you to see on screen. However, back in 1976 using white on an FX model was very problematic. With the long exposures needed during motion-control photography, the weathering applied over white paint disappeared on film. Weathering, by its nature is translucent-- allowing the white underneath to show through. Pure white is just too bright to put weathering on top of and have it work properly. When they set the exposure, the cinematographer would take the weathering into account, but where the weathering was too thin, it not only didn't show up, but those areas would be overexposed. And even if the weathering was not a problem, they couldn't get a dense enough black in the shadows. Remember, motion picture lights are much different than any lighting any of us are used to. 3400 Kelvin light is way different than an ordinary 100 watt bulb.

So, the solution was to use a very light gray base (which is known today as 'one-stop gray). Stuff like weathering looks much better - on film - when painted over light gray. The last step in how the model appears on film involves the film lab. They adjust the timing when making the prints so the ships appear 'whiter' than they actually look to the eye.

(Short Story about White Paint...) A long time ago, I worked on "King Kong Lives". One of the miniature sets I built was this medical facility interior where Kong was getting a mechanical heart. The full-sized set was painted white, so we had to duplicate that on the miniature. But, during tests, they discovered that the ape-suit worn by the actor was so dark that we had to repaint the set 3-stops to the gray side. This way, when they overexposed the ape-suit by 3 stops, so you could see the texture of the hair, the gray set looked white on film.

The question of Floquil also comes up. I know they used both Concrete (to delineate panels) and Caboose Red (wing markings). This red is actually just 'primary red', so not having the Floquil on hand is not a problem as any primary red will do. The blue used was a Pactra color (Sea Blue, if I recall correctly). It isn't available, but a 95% match is Tamiya Medium Blue (XF 18).

I know that's a long explaination, but if you know why certain things are done, you can make a more informed decision.

Scott
CaptCBoard@AOL.com

 

Hey paint them how you want doesn't matter to me I just know a few people who built models for both ANH and ESB and I use the paint techniques divuldeged to me,please by all please use gray, white or whatever color you want I do not want to make you paint your model any other way than the way you want. I got a lot of my information from Pat Mcclung so there you have it. Please disregard any advice I have offered since I get the feeling I'm trying to offer experienced help and I'm getting the good old RPF I know more than you data bank so I don't want to get into a * contest. The mention of Caboose Red is interesting for the point that I posted I used Caboose Red on my X-wing when I first built it I also diseemented that information here and to a good friend we both know so I am for all my knowledge the only one to ever mention Floquils being used by ILM on this board and to use Caboose Red which was a best guess color on my part. Out.



Lee

 

With regards to gloss white being used......just check your resources. That information has been printed in making of books and other sources. Check the pics....the models are primed black. In fact I would say most of the pictures where models are being shown before being painted....they are primed black, and if they are not black, its a very dark grey.

I recall a picture of the falcon being built for ESB (?), its white (or a light gray) with black panels being glued onto it.

At least Rogue Studios named his source. And that was not the only source he has spoken to about these models. Others claim to talk to folks who worked on the film...and I will leave that alone.

All in all its a model. You can paint it as you want. If you want it as accurate asz you can to the studio scales they used in the films, Rogue Studios is your source than. In mine and many others opinions, he has nailed the look of the studio scale Xwing. I am not knocking anyone else's work, I have seen MANY wonderfully painted Xwings, but IMHO and other members of this board and the modeling community have agreed that he nailed the look.

Use floquil paints. Its what they used. Just ask any modeler who was active in the 70's what the model paints to use, and Floquil will come up. Look at your making of pics, you will see it there too. If you have trouble finding floquil paints, drop me a line. I live near 3 very well stocked hobby stores that carry these paints. Would be happy to help out. When Rogue Studios was doing his extensive research on the colors for this model and others, I was able to help him the same way. Seems now everyone takes credit for those colors, but to my knowledge, he broke out that info first.

Happy painting.

Steve

 

Sorry, guys, I wasn't trying to say I am right and others are wrong and if I came off that way I apologize. Paint is definitely a subjective topic and, to a certain extent, X-wings can be as well.

I researched what was done during the construction of the ANH X-wings since that was what my SS kit represented. My sources were Dave Beasley and David Jones, two of the six model builders listed in the credits of ANH; as well as Bruce MacRae. Bruce is an FX model painter and has also gathered information on these things over the years, from orginal sources. I know there were more than six guys who worked as modelers on ANH, but I believe Pat McClung worked on ESB only. Which is fine as he'd be a good resource for Snow Speeders and AT-AT and other things from ESB.

I should like to point out that all my information pertains to ANH X-wings only. I may not have made that clear in my prior post. X-wings built for ESB and ROTJ have to be pointed out as being a separate subject as they are much larger than the ANH models (and so the SS kits) and how they were painted would have been way different-- including the use of gloss white paint and black primer. My comments are specific to the ANH X-wings since the SS kits are usually what people are referring to when asking about "what colors were used". If they are not asking about SS kits specifically, then my information doesn't apply, other than to be considered as a general guide.

We have seen many great looking models of X-wings, all painted using different techniques and different colors, so we know more than one approach works and works well. But, the question asked was "what colors were used", not "what colors could be used". This is why any description of how the ESB model was painted might not be as pertinent as how the ANH model was painted. True, both models are X-wings and in the end they look identical on film. But, just as the paint differs from X-wings of different sizes, so do the parts used as detail. For instance, the Saturn 5 parts used on the ANH models would have to be recreated in a larger scale as closely as possible on the ESB Red 5 model, but no one brings that up when someone asks, "What kit parts were used to detail the X-wing?" That discussion always centers on what was done on the original ANH models. So, unless someone specifically asks "What colors were used on the ESB models", I have to assume they want to know about the ANH models, since that is most likely the kit they have.

Floquil was definitely the best at the time due to range of colors and the fact they were nice and flat. Why the subject of "who said what about Floquil first" came up is a mystery to me. I just reported on the two colors I know about. I'm sure the rest of the line was used, but I don't have any further specific color info to pass along.

I think part of the problem comes from what the final result is supposed to represent. When I built my personal X-wing model of Red 5, I was recreating the FX model so I painted it using the information I had gathered. Some guys will do the same thing I did, while others will complete their model as a 'model of an X-wing'. They will put in a cockpit that is accurate to what was in the full-size version and make other modifications such that the finished model is as close to what a 'real' X-wing would be. The great thing about this hobby is both guys are correct.

Scott
CaptCBoard@AOL.com

 

That Dave Beasley is one * fine painter. I had the Armageddon shuttle he painted and it was just mad how well he painted it.

Lee

 

I probably should have said what colors would work. It is only a small model and not the studio scale ones so no big deal.

I just figured Floquils would be the paints. That's what they used for Fett's helmet so I figured those were the paints they used. I guess it isn't all that difficult. Primer, white then weathering. That's what I figured. Just thought the white would be a light grey.

Lee, nice work on that X-wing. It does seem a tad dirty, But I'm no expert. Knowing the paint jobs you do though and how accurate they look, I'm sure it's dead on.

 

If you compare it with the original model, I'd say it's an excellent match. If anything, it's possibly not quite dirty enough.

Here's the original "Luke" X-wing circa STAR WARS:



And here circa RETURN OF THE JEDI:



I think the point about the white vs grey argument is this: possibly the original paint used was called "(something or other) gray", but to all intents and purposes any lay person would have called it "white". It certainly wasn't the almost battleship grey colour that a lot of people paint their models.

 

Thanks for those pics MR. I knew from seeing Lee's Fett helmets that the X-wing was porbably right on. I just didn't have any pics at hand to check.

 

Funny thing is I have been accused of making mine too dirty and it's just hard to convince people how dirty these were. Just take your time when starting there is no rush and if you weather it in one day you are rushing. Also I tooksome of these pics under low light with an old 1 mega pix camera because 3 years ago they were an ok camera LOL. Some of the pix below are progress pics and pics of a test x-wing I did Red-4 it was actually the first one I ever did and it has since been added to a collection out there some where.


Red 5 in the works


You can see the effect of using the gloss does see near the front of the fuselage the light the way it hits it but it's still a dull coat look to the eye.


Major grainy pic sorry.


Lee

 

Is that a Thunderfighter I spy in that last pic?

any chance you know where a fella could get one?

 

Throw that man a dollar. I'll see what I can dig up for ya.

Lee

 

Lee....send him digging my way

 

Awesome work as usual Lee. Thanks for the pics. Amazing what a little weathering can do. :thumbsup

 

Moffeaton talk to JP05 mine and his both were pulled from orig studio molds. These aren't the reworked casting.

Lee

 

PM sent. :-D

 

Actually CC you are incorrect about this "gray" paint for ANH models. In several vintage ANH publications it is stated that the painting technique used was a black primer, this gives depth and makes it so the outer paint layer can be rubbed or buffed away to create weathering/damage. The main coat was an automotive hard/white enamel, now it doesn't state whether or not it was gloss of flat, but if gloss is used as Lee said then dulled down with steel wool and weathering the model will reflect light at certain angles giving it a metallic realism. Liquid frisket was applied and the details were painted with foqual paints. The ANH falcon,x-wing,tie fighter, y-wing, star destroyer,Blockade runner, were all painted the same way.

The ideal that white doesn't work well for models on film is rediculous, look at Space 1999,Alien,Star Trek, for examples of white ships which show up beautifully on film.

X-wing primed black,(they seem to do this in stages as they detail) also see the Chronicles escape pod for more proof of the black prime.

 

Well I was going to mention I assembled and primed mine black too but noticed the Gloss was too much information.

 

Is that black primer or flat black? Is it a spray can or airbrushed?

 

Who is right or who is wrong isn't the point. The point is I have my reliable information, acquired from the mouths of the people who did the work; and then there are others who like to quote publications that were written after the fact by people who did not do the work. I didn't do my research by books alone, I went to the original sources. My problem is, I talked with them years after the work was done and I have a feeling some information may have gotten re-arranged-- even I can't ignore what you guys have presented from the printed material. But, consider this-- the work shown as being done using black primer and then subsequently covered by a white gloss could have been done on the hero models, but the use of Krylon Platinum Gray primer could have been used on the pyro models. This actually makes sense as they could not have handled the pyro models the same way as the hero models as they were fairly fragile. When I talked with Dave Beasley and David Jones, they said nothing about the black-and-white process, they just chuckled over using Krylon as the base because since then they've both worked on projects where the requirements for a paint job was so much more intense.

As for models being painted white, it is true there have been models that were painted white. I do have to point out that all of the models mentioned in the prior post were either used in television exclusively (where the shadow values don't matter as they won't show up as well) or they were very large models. I should also say that while some were painted white, none of them remained that way-- they were heavily weathered to the point the white was toned down enough that it didn't flare. Yes, its true the noses of the Eagle Transporters were white and not weathered too much-- one for your side, though still used on TV. But the Star Trek models were heavily paneled in different shades, especially the ST:TMP version, which was covered exclusively in panels of pearlescent paint-- some white, most not. However, in that case, they were deliberately exposing for the paint itself, since they were so close to that model. And I should point out that since that film, any time the camera got close to an Enterprise model, it was a close-up section made just for the shot and the white value could be controlled in the exposure. I can only think of one show where the models were painted dead white-- 'V'. Again, these were used exclusively on TV. For that show, almost all the composites were daylight shots and having a bright, white ship helped. And since the ships had no surface detail beyond those very large black windows, white just did not matter.

To put the discussion of 'white or not' to rest, this should also be said... At the time ANH was made, film stocks performed in a certain way. A pure white object against blue screen (or black) was not conducive to getting the shots. Remember the talk about the blue 'polluting' the white, making it harder to pull the matte? Well, at this point, we should both note that the discussion is really about the end result. Yes, from the accounts in print, white probably was used for the ANH hero models, but at the same time it was toned way down by the final painting process-- so we are not discussing if white can be used or not, just if any models were actually 'white' when photographed and I think we both can agree nothing was pure white at that point.

Just to put this to rest, I'm going to contact David Jones and quiz him. If I'm wrong, I don't want to go on not knowing it. I can't dispute what it is print and I don't really want to. I just pass along what those who know have told me.

Scott

 

Scott, it's been proved time and time again the info from the original cast and crew from ANH isn't always 100% reliable. I'd rather rely on a 77' interview with the crew as the film was still vivid in their heads. Dave Jones main job was a detailer/kitbasher for the models. McCune used the team for their individual strengths.

The idea of the pyro's being painted differently is interesting, as they wouldn't have paid too much attention to them, I didn't think about them.

Now pure white was not what I said, obviously the models were weathered really extensively, it's a part of their charm and needed for the camera as you mentioned. Lee and I have talked about this for years now, and the results he has demonstrated with black and white x-wing is striking. Lee post some pics with a good camera BTW use imageshack you can post thumbnails for full size.

The black prime ILM used looks like a flat or a satin finish. The escape pod seems satin.

 

White wheathered to look gray how does film stock know the difference?

 

I talked to Dave this morning and you're right-- the passage of time has effected what he could recall. But he did have some interesting things that he did recall.

First, I should say that I know he wasn't the painter, Joe Johnston took care of all that, but Dave did see how things were done. And he and others did have to fill in occasionally when a model needed touching up. But, the interesting thing he passed along was that the gloss white technique had been done as an experiment to see if they could get the decals to blend better. They wound up having to do a lot of extra work to take the white back down, which was a big pain in the *. He also verified that this would not have worked on the pyro models as they were too delicate.

One thing he said about the color of the models is the optical department told them the models had to be on the gray side because as the film went through the process of being reprinted while doing the composites, that light colored objects would tend to go whiter and dark objects would go darker. He said they did camera tests using one model and had to adjust the paint to find the right values, which guided the painting of the rest of the models.

He's going to check with Dave Beasley next week to see if he can add any other info. They're both working on X-Men 3 right now. He also mentioned that Lucas is doing a completely new retrospective on the making of the first 3 films. He was interviewed for this a few weeks ago, along with a number of other guys who worked on the films. He said this program will include a tour of the Archive as well. He didn't know when it would be out or if it was going to be broadcast somewhere first.

Scott

 

Hey if you can find out the deal on why Red-2 appears to be painted and detailed much better than most. It's just weird in many promo shots it's always this model.

Lee

 

Rogue- Motion picture film, especially in 1976-77 (as opposed to more recently), had to be exposed under very specific conditions. The film we all use in still cameras is way different from motion picture film. Motion picture film is designed to make images that remain transparent, so they can be projected-- and the images have to go through several printing steps before we see them on the screen. This requires a much different dye-set than film used for making first-generation paper prints.

Back then, the process for an FX shot would have gone like this: Positive elements going through the optical printer would be generated from the camera negative. These would be used to generate positive and negative matte elements and bi-packed for the final run resulting in the 'composite negative'. The composite negative would then be added in with the original camera negative of the reel being assembled once the final edit had been locked and an 'interpositive' would be made, from which the final 'internegatives' would be generated for making release prints.

Each step in this process requires specialized films so that the number of times the picture was copied had as little effect on the quality of the image as possible. Because of the rather limited way grayscale is transferred from print to negative to print (and so on) lighter objects will 'get thinner', meaning whiter, and dark objects will 'get thicker', meaning darker. In the case of light colored spaceships against starfields (essentially a black sky) they have to lean the exposure during printing to the light side, so the stars don't disappear. This means the spaceship will get brighter-- but if it was a light gray to begin with, by the time they get to this step it will look 'white'. How white or how gray it winds up is determined by shooting exposure tests first, evaluating those tests and then taking that info and shooting the final shots.

So the film stock doesn't have to know anything. Its the guys shooting the film stock that have to know how to get the object they're shooting to look right. You can actually do a test to see what I'm talking about. Make a Xerox of a photo, then make a copy of the copy, then make a copy of that copy and so on. You'll see the whites get whiter and the darker stuff gets darker.

Scott

 

Wow Scott. I find all this information you are uncovering on the painting of those miniatures extremely fascinating. Hey it's straight from the mouths of the guys who were there. Better than nothing I say.

Back in the late 70's when the MPC X-Wing was first released, I was dying to find any kind of info on how to make my MPC X-wing paint-job look like what I remembered was on the screen.
Then I ran across a publication called Fantastic Spaceships of Fact and Fantasy and in it was a great couple of paragraphs on the painting and weathering of the models.
The article mentioned using a 'hard white enamel automotive primer that couldn't be scratched away', stuff about 'liquid frisket' which I had no idea what the heck that was at the time, 'dipping grease and grime colors into thinner and flowing them across the model with a brush' and finally 'using steel wool to rub down areas that needed further weathering or needed to be re-done'.
Those were the only hints given but those lines peaked my imagination.

For my T-65 (still in progress) I primed the whole thing with Plasticote gray Primer and preshaded the paneling with black primer. I then misted Plasticote white primer over everything else making sure the pre-shading showed.




It's basically painted and weathered for the eye and not for the camera.
I went with my own version of paneling and weathering based on whatever references were out there on the real Red 5. I knew I wasn't going to get close to the real miniature paint-job so I didn't even worry about it.

BTW as I was taking photo's of this X-wing I finally got the gist of how the whites get 'blown' out and the darker areas get darker. I got a new understanding now of why the miniatures had to be darkened a bit for movie film.

Tony Agustin

 

Definitely fascinating stuff. Lots of great tips. :thumbsup

Nice work on your X-wing Tony.

 

This is an awesome thread. When I read threads like this with such good info from so many different people, I always get so inspired. I wish there was such in-depth info on the painting of all Star Wars ships.

 

Tony,
I have to say that I am really impressed with your painting skills. I have no idea how long that took or the patience involved but I have to say that you are a * good artist.

Greg