Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[SithLord]

It could also be the ANH style ESB Hoth helmet!? Has anyone ever found that particular helmet? Or was that turned into just a regular ESB?

I don't know what happened to it but the pyre keep in mind is both a mask and dome...and had grills, straps, strap slots, tusks (has the holes) and interior foam as well. That all points to a touring helmet. Why finish a helmet like that if you are just going to burn it?

But I could compare the grills on the hoth and the pyre....but should get some sleep first. :sleep

 

[Darth Niob]

300 of what? Fiberglass Darth Vader helmets? I'm not familiar with Tim Allen, sorry.

If the artisan is skilled and the mold integrity holds up then there shouldn't be variability in complex shapes such as that. How many runs of Vader helmets have we seen and the results are usually consistent (and measurably so).

He meant helmets from the movie "300". Tim Allen made a run of them.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I don't know what happened to it but the pyre keep in mind is both a mask and dome...and had grills, straps, strap slots, tusks (has the holes) and interior foam as well. That all points to a touring helmet. Why finish a helmet like that if you are just going to burn it?

But I could compare the grills on the hoth and the pyre....but should get some sleep first. :sleep

Yeah, no need, I was just wondering about the Hoth helmet and didn't think it through in regards with the Pyre helmet. Seems like two different pieces.

 

[SithLord]

I was reminded that the wider half-moon shape on the right cheek is also seen on the ROTJ stunt mask.

Sorry I didn't post this earlier along with the other image, but again showing clearly that the original ROTJ...at least this one at CIV, is pretty small next to the original ROTS. Keep in mind that the crown of the head of the ROTS is about the same size as the original ANH mask crown. :eek That is why I'm pointing out this difference, it is pretty noticable to me, and the angle doesn't matter, because the crown of the ROTJ head of this mask should be as large as the crown of the ROTS.

And again the other image I showed...I don't know who took these at CIV so if credit is due please let me know.

And again a reminder of what the original ANH size was like next to a ROTS...it just is not possible that this ROTJ mask is the same size as an original ESB or ANH.

Looks like things have died down a bit so I'll just say that certainly some of the ROTJ helmets could have been recycled ESB but not all....and I hope we'll be able to study Brian's ROTJ helmet in more detail sometime as I am sure that will help shed more light on the discussion.

 

[Onigiri]

I think the problem you run in to using the ROTS is that if you watch how its made very little of the original source is used. The ROTS isnt very indicative of the other helmets being discussed...needless to say when you cut the neck down so they sit side by side the difference in size is far less obvious but its still kind of an apples and oranges comparison IMO. Case in point the eyeholes seem to match up quite nicely and the only real size difference Im seeing there is the length of the neck and a taller forehead. Maybe some can photoshop an overlay of the one over the other as I believe them to be fairly close in size feature wise.

 

[Onigiri]

also the crown on the OT helmets is not symetrical tending to bulge on one side so I think its a tough comparison.

 

[micdavis]

I'm just glad they finally straightened all those crooked helmets up and created the ultimate Vader helmet that IS the ROTS helm.

It's about time.

 

[ave4uevoli]

I'm just glad they finally straightened all those crooked helmets up and created the ultimate Vader helmet that IS the ROTS helm.

It's about time.

:lol Yea, that and jar jar really made the new trilogy so much better than the old one.

 

[KevVader]

:lol Yea, that and jar jar really made the new trilogy so much better than the old one.

lol....Zing!

 

[Trap Joe]

:lol Yea, that and jar jar really made the new trilogy so much better than the old one.

:thumbsup
:lol was important, indeed :wacko:love

 

[SithLord]

I think the problem you run in to using the ROTS is that if you watch how its made very little of the original source is used. The ROTS isnt very indicative of the other helmets being discussed...needless to say when you cut the neck down so they sit side by side the difference in size is far less obvious but its still kind of an apples and oranges comparison IMO. Case in point the eyeholes seem to match up quite nicely and the only real size difference Im seeing there is the length of the neck and a taller forehead. Maybe some can photoshop an overlay of the one over the other as I believe them to be fairly close in size feature wise.

True, but keep in mind I am just using the ROTS as a "bridge" for scaling reference....I can't compare an original-sized ROTJ since I don't have one. So, I use the ROTS as a go-between for scaling since I have a pretty good ANH and ROTS reference, and a ROTJ just happened to be sitting right next to a ROTS at CIV....so just playing around with that.

This is the kind of thing I had in mind....since I handle these masks all the time I can rotate them in my mind as well to judge size or proportions. I can even tell how distance affects their appearance...for example the right image was taken closer or with a shorter focal length than the left.

Actually what I could do is recreate the image on the right with similar angle/distance and use either the SL or what I think is a ROTJ-sized mask (a 20th Century copy) for comparison...

Nothing here is ideal of course unless I could do a direct side-by-side of something known to be original ROTJ-sized...

What the point of all this as well is that I don't think if an "ANH" mold was used for ROTJ that it would necessarily be THE ANH mold from ILM...well...I know already it couldn't be for a number of reasons, including the tab issue. So it could be generationally later, much like the 20th Century, which was a tour helmet taken from an ESB but is smaller than an original ESB.

 

[micdavis]

Sithlord, have you ever held ANY original helmets in your hands?

 

[SithLord]

Sithlord, have you ever held ANY original helmets in your hands?

No, not screen-used. May I ask why you ask?

 

[micdavis]

Just curious.

 

[SithLord]

But I got me some darn fine replicas! :lol

 

[runnriottt]

Caught up.. Sheesh... So much for Civil. :confused


One thing that bugs me. If we cant use photos due to lens distortion, cant use word of mouth for all the agendas, cant use measurements for every pull is different...

What the hell can we use as conformation? Ya ran off the guy that can go to the archive and look at what is there and was willing to talk about it, as well as the guy that made the damn thing. Good Lord yall. It’s like we need the fight.

At least with SL and TM we know where the masks and dome came from right? eBay. LFL auctions or what ever they were. That would lend cred, and known knowledge base. I can say that the TD is larger all over than the 20thC, and larger than the JB and SPFX, but to a layman they look the same.

We don't know what a Gino is. Not that he is lying, don't know. His call.

The photo SL showed is a wild helmet. The one at CIV. If we assume that time is money, and there all reused, and that is a real ROTJ... Where are all the tell tale signs of it being reused. At least that helmet is a wild card.

We also know that the 20thC retained some of the tell tale stuff from the ANH / ESB conversion. Why not this helmet, the one in the case?

SL, I don’t see the size thing though. The ROTJ looks smaller than the ROTS to me, but I do see the ROTJ pictured as one that is a wild card.
As well to Gino, the picture that SL posted would lean that the ROTJ could have been another mold, or that that particular helmet was misidentified.

 

[SithLord]

At least with SL and TM we know where the masks and dome came from right? eBay. LFL auctions or what ever they were. That would lend cred, and known knowledge base. I can say that the TD is larger all over than the 20thC, and larger than the JB and SPFX, but to a layman they look the same.

Well just to clarify, the SL and TM came from ebay but not "LFL auctions", just from private owners who had some connections with the productions or LFL.

The photo SL showed is a wild helmet. The one at CIV. If we assume that time is money, and there all reused, and that is a real ROTJ... Where are all the tell tale signs of it being reused. At least that helmet is a wild card.

We also know that the 20thC retained some of the tell tale stuff from the ANH / ESB conversion. Why not this helmet, the one in the case?

Well apparently they cleaned up the ROTJ castings (assumed former ESB) even to the point of removing the ANH remnants within the mounting rings.

SL, I don’t see the size thing though. The ROTJ looks smaller than the ROTS to me, but I do see the ROTJ pictured as one that is a wild card.
As well to Gino, the picture that SL posted would lean that the ROTJ could have been another mold, or that that particular helmet was misidentified.

Along with the Paul Allen ESB, Gino pointed that particular mask out as being an original, so I went with it.

 

[Onigiri]

Heres a question...my first Vader helmet from years ago I purchased from a guy in England (before I knew squat about different Vader helmets). I sold it here on the board but I dont remember to whom. It had the ROTJ Mounting ring and the ANH tabs but IIRC it was molded as one piece. The FG was thin. The gentleman in England I bought it from was 'Steve' and he sold all sorts of things including trooper helmets and I believe full size battle droids. anybody remember this guy? He claimed to have ties to Elstree. I believe that helmet is now whats referred to as a 20th C.

 

[cking]

Onigiri - you're referring to Steve Arnold. Unfortunately, he turned into one of the biggest scam artists on this side of the atlantic. He disappeared off the radar years ago though.

Chris

 

[Onigiri]

Yep, that was him...what was the deal behind that ROTJ helmet I got from him? Do you know any history on it, Chris?

Onigiri - you're referring to Steve Arnold. Unfortunately, he turned into one of the biggest scam artists on this side of the atlantic. He disappeared off the radar years ago though.

Chris