Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation
- Thread starter SithLord
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Darth Niob
Sr Member
That would be better before the mods close this thread...would be :thumbsdown
GINO
Sr Member
There's no need to close the thread.
No one is 'getting out of hand'.
This thread is as civil a discussion as anyone could possibly ask for consider the topic and the people posting.
You really don't think any of my posts were constructive contributions?
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No one is 'getting out of hand'.
This thread is as civil a discussion as anyone could possibly ask for consider the topic and the people posting.
You really don't think any of my posts were constructive contributions?
.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Likewise Thomas. You have heard it from a few crafters on this thread already...you cannot judge difference by "size measurements", especially not 1/10th of a millimeter....on one specific measurement. They have told you that each pull does not come out exactly the same.
I swear, you just do not want to hear what disputes your claims. Is it so hard for you to be wrong? Again, I mean no disrespect in what I say, but even in the face of you being wrong before, you have NEVER admitted it.
Hector
Trap Joe
Sr Member
Gino: piece. Sithlord asked you to be possitive.
You just destroyed the fun for Don Bies. And now he left the discussion. :angry
It would be cool that you try to learn just only one time not to behave like the Emperor throwing flashes in every direction.
I´ve told you earlier, that you could come much further with that method than you ever assume.:$
You just destroyed the fun for Don Bies. And now he left the discussion. :angry
It would be cool that you try to learn just only one time not to behave like the Emperor throwing flashes in every direction.
I´ve told you earlier, that you could come much further with that method than you ever assume.:$
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I suggest you re-read when Don left the thread, Joe. It was right after one of Thomas' tirades. Once he found out GINO was correct, Thomas went off.
I will not presume to speak for Don, but none of us here knows why he tapped out. Hell, I was tapping out once Don dispelled some of the misconceptions we have seen passed around here as fact for a long time. Now, it's just ranting by one side and pointing and giggling from the other. Personally, I would much rather read Paul (DarthVaderV) and GINO discuss what they know than what one man "thinks is right". Those two seem to be the most knowledgable.
I can say all that we needed to know was discussed by both Don and Brian, both Vader creators. One old, one new. People find out their beliefs were wrong for a long time and they either go one of two ways; They admit they were wrong and accept the new knowledge confirmation and move on, or rant to disguise what just happened. Read again and tell me which was which.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
That's not exactly what Thomas is saying, he's saying that authentic pulls which are known to be generationally later show a consistant reduction in size.
It is true that pulls from the same mould at the same time can vary in size, it's also true that a 2nd or 3rd gen copy is also going to vary from the 1st gen item in size.
His arguement is that all the ROTJ era helmets are smaller than the ANH era, and that can't be accounted for by a random rogue casting.
Now i know it's fun to ridicule and all but hey if you wan't to do that why not just show why he's wrong,either show that the ROTJ era stuffs the same sizewise or at least within a believable tolerance.
***** you guys....can we please get this thread back on track. Thomas, it's pretty obvious you don't subscribe to the "all ROTJ masks are reworked ESB masks". Without bashing Gino, can you please explain/show what differences you have found (leaving the size issue out of the equation)??
And, please, do not take this post as an attempt to call you out. I am truly wanting to know (or see) why you feel so strongly about this. Maybe then we can have some constructive discussion instead of the lame back and forth that is going on.
And, please, do not take this post as an attempt to call you out. I am truly wanting to know (or see) why you feel so strongly about this. Maybe then we can have some constructive discussion instead of the lame back and forth that is going on.
I was wrong about the photo of the ROTJ helmet grouping. My source told me that if Don Bies knows the guys in that photo then he defers his opinion to Don's better knowledge.
I don't mind admitting I am wrong because I prefer to know the truth about things.
I am very curious if Gino is right, how about that? :lol
There are two sides to everything. I think if Don can find out if all of the ROTJ original helmes are reworked original ESBs, then this thread would have accomplished its goal. If Gino is right then kudos to him, I am interested in the truth and if we dont' know for sure I hold a position that I think is the most realistic given what we know at this time. So grant me the permission ask questions, make mistakes, but also to challenge ideas and that is what I enjoy about the hobby.
No that's not what I meant....just for the sake of moving on to any new information about your theory.
ArtisanProps
Sr Member
Thomas, what authentic ROTJ mask Are you talking about? are you
referring to the GH ROTJ?
referring to the GH ROTJ?
The GH/Jeff ROTJ is one but also the Elstree ROTJ, each apparently from different original ROTJ helmets. We could argue about their sources or authenticity, and of course i am aware they will be smaller than an original ROTJ. Then there is an ESB/ROTJ tour mask that I got measurements from, and of course the ROTS which would be just an example of something later on derived from ROTJ as an approximation. The VP was mated with a ROTJ helmet, but that mask isn't ROTJ per se, unless Brian's new helmet shows otherwise. Maybe the ROTJ that Don examined in the archives is the same size as an original ESB, taking into account whatever might be lost from the refining process, and I am wrong? Could be. But definitely it is the case that castings with sources known to be more recent are smaller. But size can be related to lineage, generation, or a combination of the two so I don't take size by itself as an indicator of lineage. If you take a mold of a casting and make a pull from that mold, odds are that pull will be slightly smaller, not slightly larger than the pattern or master. Plus molds can shrink over time and that shrinkage can be nonuniform depending on the distribution of moisture in the mold material.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
That is the point though. There is no "believable tolerance". According to our crafters here, there is just too much variance between pulls for there to be anything "uniform".
It is impossible for Thomas, or anyone, to show the differences. Aside from GINO's pieces and Thomas' SL, we are pretty much swinging at air. They would need access to a screen used piece, which even then, leaves us with the problem of no two pieces are the same from the same mold.
Darth Niob
Sr Member
Gino's pieces?
GINO
Sr Member
I just want to go on record to say that 99% of the time, I am in complete disagreement of Sithlord's 'analyses' and 'conclusions'.
And as long as you hang onto using these 1/10 of a millimeter size discrepancies as your 'empirical' evidence, no one is going to take you seriously.
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And as long as you hang onto using these 1/10 of a millimeter size discrepancies as your 'empirical' evidence, no one is going to take you seriously.
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Well we do the best we can. The crafters here are basing their opinions on what? TK helmets? Boba fett helmets? You can't compare those to fiberglass Darth Vader helmets. There is surprising consistency and accuracy in measurement among authentic masks/helmets. The SL, the TD, the DJ, the MP (the ESB movie poster helmet) and the TM. Each from very different times, and very different sources far removed from each other and yet they share surprisingly similar dimensions....not exact of course but very close and they are basically in the same size class with each other.
The next group down would be the VP ANH and the 20th Century, and the GH ANH. Below that is the size class that includes derivatives of the 20th Century, such as the JB, SPFX, VM and DP Deluxe/CA line. The ROTJ also are in that category. But as you get to that size class the diversity is much greater and so harder to pin down the source.
And there are ways of "calibrating" scale in terms of measurements of a particular casting. For example, I have 3M mounting tabs from 1979. They are consistent among each other in dimensions to high precision. I can compare them to the cast tabs on castings such as the TM, TD and 20th Century as a reference to something "original". It takes precision and accuracy, and a LOT of measuring to obtain a dataset that is reliable. For some castings I might have measurements from more than one example of that same source. I can't just compare something like five or six castings and come up with a trend, I need at least 30 or more (I have 35) and even then I could use more.
If someone else took the time to compare castings in that way, they should find the same trend. Is it just generational? Or is it based on the true lineage of the helmets? It is a guide and I use it in conjunction with examination of related details.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
Yeah it's impossible to say one way or another for sure no doubt in that but why ridicule a theory so readily ?
Seems pretty straightforward what Thomas is saying.
2nd gen copies of original ROTJ era helmets are consistantly smaller than 2nd gen copies from original ANH era helmets.
The ROTS original is based off an ROTJ pattern and is also smaller, which leads him to the belief that the original ROTJ helmets are smaller than the original ANH.
Granted he may well be wrong but there's a reasonable posibility his theory could be correct, at least reasonable enough not to make out he's saying something completely ridiculous like the sky is red.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I'm fairly certain Don dispelled that myth a few pages back.
GINO
Sr Member
I don't know why this is so difficult for some people to understand.
You could make a casting directly out of the original ESB mold (the one cast off the screen used ANH and the basis for all the ESB/ROTJ helmets) and depending on a multitude of factors during it's casting, it is possible for it to be smaller than lets say the Jeff/GH rotj helmet which is a recast of a recast of a recast of a recast.
Especially when you are coming up with differences of 1/10 of a millimeter.
Using measurements to determine lineage or generation is a completely unreliable method.
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You could make a casting directly out of the original ESB mold (the one cast off the screen used ANH and the basis for all the ESB/ROTJ helmets) and depending on a multitude of factors during it's casting, it is possible for it to be smaller than lets say the Jeff/GH rotj helmet which is a recast of a recast of a recast of a recast.
Especially when you are coming up with differences of 1/10 of a millimeter.
Using measurements to determine lineage or generation is a completely unreliable method.
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