Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation
- Thread starter SithLord
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This thread should continue in the same manner it started before it becomes something else.
ArtisanProps
Sr Member
Getting back on track,
Thomas you have a nice collection in this picture, but it only further proves
what Gino has been saying.. Every helmet in this picture is either an ANH
style lid or derived from ANH. The TM was ANH and had to be modified
to make it Accurate to ESB. Haven't you said that the TM was the most
authentic ESB version to ever surface?
Thomas you have a nice collection in this picture, but it only further proves
what Gino has been saying.. Every helmet in this picture is either an ANH
style lid or derived from ANH. The TM was ANH and had to be modified
to make it Accurate to ESB. Haven't you said that the TM was the most
authentic ESB version to ever surface?
Again I echo Paul's sentiments. It is so much more constructive when you guys present your arguments in general without being so caustic with regards to one another. The 'discussion' has apparently scared away Mr. Bies, which is a damn shame.
Darth Niob
Sr Member
Getting back on track,
Thomas you have a nice collection in this picture, but it only further proves
what Gino has been saying.. Every helmet in this picture is either an ANH
style lid or derived from ANH. The TM was ANH and had to be modified
to make it Accurate to ESB. Haven't you said that the TM was the most
authentic ESB version to ever surface?
Wasnt the TM pure ESB and was reworked to make an ANH version also?
And i think it is by far the most authentic ESB out there.
GINO
Sr Member
The TM was one of the authentic style castings that had already had some conversion performed on it.
It is unknown whether or not it was a cast directly out of the same mold that all the other ESB castings were made from, or if it was a later generation casting.
It is impossible to tell because raw castings start out looking the same way and without any of the finishings (mounting flange, grills, interior detailing, straps) there is no way to definitively place it.
.
It is unknown whether or not it was a cast directly out of the same mold that all the other ESB castings were made from, or if it was a later generation casting.
It is impossible to tell because raw castings start out looking the same way and without any of the finishings (mounting flange, grills, interior detailing, straps) there is no way to definitively place it.
.
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ArtisanProps
Sr Member
All of the info I have on the TM, including pictures, show it starting off
as an ANH version (at least the Face mask) Small chin vent, no hat mount
just the tabs....
as an ANH version (at least the Face mask) Small chin vent, no hat mount
just the tabs....
ArtisanProps
Sr Member
Trap Joe
Sr Member
No. Helmet was ESB, mask ANH
Trap Joe
Sr Member
true
Darth Niob
Sr Member
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Not true. The lineage is clear if you want it to be a certain way. You can certainly find reasons to support your theories. This has been done like mad in this hobby for years. People start with a preconceived idea and then force the facts they find to fit that idea instead of letting the facts take them wherever they go and be willing to accept that we may be wrong if the facts don't prove us right. You still seem to be in the camp that believes once you have formed a hypothesis, you can never change or be dissuaded from it and you will go to laughable lengths (lets not go back to the image comparison debacles) to "prove" your point, even in the face of clear proof to the contrary. Getting back on point, you can't make blanet statements as you are making. Perhaps the difference between casting from a similar source SHOULD be very small, but that doesn't mean they always are.
Again, an oversimplified and sweeping statement that simply isn't always true. You can't simply say that because helmet A is smaller then helmet B, helmet A is later in the lineage. In a perfect world that would be awesome because it sure would make things a lot more easy for us, but in reality, that is not true and lineage is not so easily defined. I have seen castings from the same mold that you would never consider to be "brothers" and I have seen recasts that were so good they were virtually indistinguishable from the generation before. And please don't pretend you have some super-eye that can distinguish all these variables. You don't. Gino doesn't. Nobody does. We can do the best we can, but with all the variables involved no one can look at any two helmets and be able to emphatically state the generation. You are misleading people by making such statements.
I will apologize to AP, just because I know he is an artisan. But please keep in mind my reply to Gino was on account of his unreasonable and unkind attack of my efforts to understand the lineage by careful analysis of size, apart from an exhaustive analysis of retention of specific details.
For example, long ago when I was trying to determine the relationship of the SPFX V1 and JB V2 with the 20th Century, I did measurements. I found that the SPFX V1 and JB V2, from completely different makers, were 1/10th of a millimeter off in terms of one specific measurement, and just slightly smaller but basically the same as 20th C copies from that time. Coincidence? And they are in a completely different size class from a VP or a TM or the DJ.
Yes there can be variability in pulls, but the overall size trend is there from ANH to ROTJ and from more authentic castings to known recasts which are generationally more removed. Gino opposes this simply because if someone were to measure the size of his Vader helmets, he knows they wouldn't measure up.
I'm not going to bash his stuff, but I will point out that if he will criticize my methods of determining authenticity then I will defend myself.
Back to the topic.....
For example, long ago when I was trying to determine the relationship of the SPFX V1 and JB V2 with the 20th Century, I did measurements. I found that the SPFX V1 and JB V2, from completely different makers, were 1/10th of a millimeter off in terms of one specific measurement, and just slightly smaller but basically the same as 20th C copies from that time. Coincidence? And they are in a completely different size class from a VP or a TM or the DJ.
Yes there can be variability in pulls, but the overall size trend is there from ANH to ROTJ and from more authentic castings to known recasts which are generationally more removed. Gino opposes this simply because if someone were to measure the size of his Vader helmets, he knows they wouldn't measure up.
I'm not going to bash his stuff, but I will point out that if he will criticize my methods of determining authenticity then I will defend myself.
Back to the topic.....
GINO
Sr Member
1....10th.....of a millimeter.
I just want that to sink in for a minute for everyone.
lol:lolSee, I told you I wasn't exaggerating.
.
The problem here is that if I say one thing, people assume that that is all I use to determine lineage and that would be unrealistic. Do you honestly think that I rely solely on size relationships for lineage determination? The GH master is exactly the same size as the VP...does that make them copies of the same source? Of course not. Because I know something about the details that reveal lineage. Details like these...
Everything has a starting point. The screen ANH helmet. The lineage follows from there. Details such as the ones above serve as benchmarks. What details are carried over. To what degree is original size retained. To what degree are proportions retained.
How did I find out that the ESB helmets came from a UK source and not the ILM mold Don Bies spoke of? That comes from analysis of the details, and comparing them to the original helmets. It isn't rocket science, it is simply careful observation.
Is the ANH original the same as the chronicles? Look at the details:
Is the Elstree mask the original? It seems to be.
I take the time to study details and use both photographic and in-hand reference.
So please do not tell me what I know or don't know, or whether someone can tell these things or not. Gino simply isn't capable of telling because he doesn't take the time or effort to examine or simply doesn't have the reference material in hand and even if he did he wouldn't reveal it. Did you take the time to study anything? Then don't tell me what is possible or what is not.
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1....10th.....of a millimeter.
I just want that to sink in for a minute for everyone.
See, I told you I wasn't exaggerating.
.
You know Gino I am a pretty reasonable fellow. And I try my best to be courteous to members regardless of the forum or the discussion. The reason threads like this devolve is on account of failure on your part to extend the same courtesy.
If you can provide something specific to the discussion to move it forward please do. Can you be specifically show that each one of the know original ROTJ helmets were converted from ESB and what is your evidence, photographic or otherwise, to support it.
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