My Red Y (aka lazybones build) - some tips for the slack modeler

Discussion in 'Studio Scale Models' started by Nwerke, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    It's probably a bit premature to start this thread as for now I only intend to assemble and prime the model. It's too hot here at the moment to go all the way into painting, that will have to wait for later in the year.

    That said, I've been finding a few talking points - in case anyone is about to kick off their build, this might be of some use, hopefully. Please note my build is pretty spartan - no lights, no extra mount points, no panavise or ILM/industry-style stand, just a steel rod for the underside mount, and a mahogany base. Much of this won't apply if you intend to create wing mount points:

    1. I drilled the main armature rod all the way through using a 7/16 bit in a drill press. It was just a sharp bit that happened to be ready to hand; you could go a little smaller or larger, but it is an ideal size in several respects.

    2. You could probably do just about as well with a hand drill if you have a good eye and a vise, or can clamp it down well. Centrepunch the location for drilling first off or your drill bit will wander.

    3. K&H make nice 7/16 brass tubing and stainless steel rods and hopefully your LHS will carry these. I went for stainless, it will need cutting - I hate cutting stainless but it should last forever.

    4. *Don't* drill the wing bar (if you are only making a lower mount). That will allow the bar to be a stop for the mount rod - it will rest on top of the mount rod and hold the model up. You can just clean off any burring at the cut ends, no need to do more. (Note Jason's excellent instructions give the bar length as 12.5" while mine was slightly smaller. If you are marking the centreline to drill for the upper mount, take note of the exact length of YOUR bar, as it seems they vary - though it shouldn't ultimately vary enough to actually matter. But, you know. We're modelmakers. A bit OCD sometimes. So I thought I'd mention it.) :lol

    5. That said, DO follow Jason's advise religiously on trimming the fuselage and engine location points for the wing bar. The resin pieces have shrunk slightly, the aluminium ones haven't. You will need to slice and sand out a slight channel in the front or rear (or both) of the fuselage location for the bar in order for it to sit nice and flat. DO sand the horizontal mating surface of the hull, too, as it can be flatter. The same goes for the wing bar location points inside the engines. In all this be sure you don't end up with a loose fit. It's not a structural requirement, it's just that tight fits are always much nicer. Cough.

    6. Since you aren't using wing mounts, you can slide your engines straight onto the wing bar AFTER assembly. I recommend building the engines first as it will make cleaning up the seams MUCH easier.

    7. You can also attach all four of the cone shroud support vanes directly to the cone shroud before you assemble it to the engine body. This seems easier than the other method as you can just slide the assembly straight into the back of the Saturn can. Obviously do this BEFORE you start attaching the Plastruct! :lol

    8. The support vane thingies are too thick. At least they are to my eyes and a couple of others agree. Not by much but by a little. I am as lazy as a modelmaker can get while still occasionally actually making a model, so I didn't make new ones in styrene. Instead I adzed the trailing edges of the vanes with a single-edged razor blade, then sanded them lightly. Yes, I am THAT lazy. :D

      This took around thirty seconds per vane, only a few passes with a sharp blade does the trick. It's way quicker than cutting 2mm or 3mm styrene replacements would have been.

    9. When assembled, the conical inserts in the rear of the Saturn cans prevent the seams aligning well along one side, as noted in the instructions. You can shim as described, or you could also try sanding down the conical insert piece around its circumference slightly. I did not do this, but wished I had tried it.

    10. Another area of poor fit is pointed out in the instructions at the front of one of the Saturn cans. There are little doglegs of flash or pour stubs; this one can be resolved by removing them. Your Saturn can diameter will be slightly smaller so check for fit against the L'Eggs. (But then again, if it fit perfectly it wouldn't be ILM!) :lol

    11. The wing skins can be made to fit without cutting if you're careful - I THINK - mine did, anyway. Possibly another case of individual variation. I had only the slightest misalignment along the rear tubes, maybe a quarter of a millimetre - well within the putty and sanding range.

    12. The cockpit rear bulkhead is beautiful but cast in a harder resin. Some details need to be removed, and a circular hole drilled out, as described in the instructions. The ideal tool for this would have to be an end mill bit in a Dremel; don't try to shave the details with Xactos, the resin is too hard. I would LOVE TO KNOW why my LHS and hardware stores haven't carried Dremel end mill bits for years.

      Ow, my sliced finger.

    All for now. There will be pics but has to wait for tomorrow or Monday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  2. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Pix or it didn't happen.
     
  3. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    That's nice coming from a joker who drank my beer and pored over my build this very afternoon! :p
     
  4. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Ta for all this. The LHS actually has K&H tubes so my mount woes are beginning to look a bit less intractable now, lol...

    J'master's right, though - let's see some pics...
     
  5. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Good to hear! Yeh, pics tomorrow if relly bash stuff doesn't keep me away. Just got too late today.

    Oh get this. Last night I was trimming up the cockpit bulkhead, then left it to go water the new bamboos I've planted. It's summer here so I've been working on the deck. My 4.5yo son was 'helping daddy', and he carried on without me (knives out of reach of course). When I got back both engine subassemblies, the cockpit, the cockpit bathtub, the canopy AND THE COCKPIT BULKHEAD, were all assembled up...correctly.

    ME SO PROUD!!! :lol
     
  6. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Maybee he could make a start on the other dozen studio scale kits you have? Maybe that way he could actually start a build thread unlike his dad.:behave
    And I was actually talkin about cuttin ya finger and ya beer was cheap.:rolleyes

    Actually while I'm at it. For those living in a warmer climate, you may just wanna check for air bubbles. I only found a few and they will be pretty much covered up but it'll only take five minutes to fix.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    God you are a nasty bit of work, Graver. :lol :p

    Yeah good point. Looks like you've got just a few more bubbles than me - hardly any bubbles on mine at all. I'd settle for popping them. Can't do any harm if there's no trapped air, and they're covered over.
     
  8. Dedalus5550

    Dedalus5550 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Clarification on number 4. You say not to drill the cross bar but you don't really say why. Then, in the same section, you talk about measuring it for drilling. I realize you mention Jason's build and drilling, but I'm just a little fuzzy here.
     
  9. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Covered under the overriding clause regarding only going for a lower mounting rod, but you're right, have edited that item for clarity. If you are going for an upper mount then you do need to drill the bar.
     
  10. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Good stuff!

    Upper mount really comes in handy for painting the bottom of the bird, but that's just me ;)
     
  11. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    You're totally right.

    I plan to half-* it. :)

    Hey, are you doing the small black squares, btw? I was wondering whether they might be done as masking over the black base coat.
     
  12. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    They could be, yeah. I just did 'em - laid down Tamiya mask tape, cut them out by eyeballing with an X-Acto, and a quick PSSSHT PSSSHT with the airbrush, the end!
     
  13. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Cool, looking forward to pics. Always wondered what the thinking was, with those. They're such a weird, funky little detail. And they're on (almost) EVERYTHING!
     
  14. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Just rereading this after taking some pics...want to stress, I am not trying to take anything away from Jason's instructions. They're *excellent*!

    This actually came out of a conversation with a friend over nitty gritty details. It just occurred to me that perhaps some expansion on those aspects might be helpful to anyone who doesn't have a strong background in resin studio scale stuff. Anyway, pics!

    Adzing the shroud supports:

    [​IMG]

    Modded shroud supports on the left, unmodified on the right:

    [​IMG]

    If you build these as units they can just slot straight in. Sorry for crap pic:

    [​IMG]

    Gap on left wing requires some pressure inside engine (via outer hatch) when gluing to wing bar. It will disappear, but slow superglue is a must:

    [​IMG]

    This is the misalignment on the rear of the starboard wing - I didn't think it was worth cutting:

    [​IMG]

    Ditto port wing. Note I have carried out the surgery Jason recommends on the Saturn corrugations to get a good fit here - but also, a couple of details on the engine where it meets the underside of the wing need to be shaved a tiny bit, and all three tubes on the upper wing sleeve also need a fraction of a millimetre shaved off their ends:

    [​IMG]

    Here's where I'm at so far, with the K&H 7/16" bar I chose for my mount. It is product no. 7145:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  15. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Looks excellent!
     
  16. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips

    Thanks Jason. Just the bare bones as yet though; I will be keeping this in subassemblies for a long while yet unfortunately. Just too much on the plate and the weather is too hot for spraying anyway. Paint dries before it leaves the airbrush!

    I *should* really be leaving it in the box and doing other things, but it is irresistible. :)

    It also goes together really well. I gotta stress that...the engineering is great. Nitpicking tiny details can always run the risk of giving a negative impression but trust me, I am ecstatic with this kit. :)
     
  17. Scott Graham

    Scott Graham Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That's a good addendum!
     
  18. neosporing

    neosporing Sr Member

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    Re: My Red Y build - some tips


    that'd be me.. Thanks for the documentation, 'tis greatly appreciated. I haven't received my kit yet but, the more documented builds that's out there the better!
    (y)thumbsup
     
  19. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Lovely, and very helpful, ta.

    But hey, this weak-SS-background-novice wants full credit for showing the master the mod required on the 4 engine shroud bracket thingies, lol! And I'm gonna prove you wrong on that cockpit bulkhead detail shaving - I WILL get it done with an xacto and a file - since I have no bleedin' choice!

    Nice to see your son chipping in. I always wondered about how he takes his Dad's hobby, whether he considers that SW is for kids so by rights the kits should really be HIS. Or whether he just thinks the whole thing is sad beyond belief. Anyway, that's very generous of you, letting him glue stuff together. Good job I don't have kids - I would have ended up making a pathetic, petulant spectacle of myself: 'What are you doing making Daddy's model? This is DADDY'S model! Get away from Daddy's model!'
     
  20. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    neosporing, you're welcome, if this helps I'm really pleased to hear it.

    CD, you'll have to share the credit with jedimaster I'm afraid; he'd spotted it too. Good eye you guys, it is only something less than a mill's difference, I think, yeah? Anyway, hate throwing away parts so a bit of shaving does the trick.

    I shaved the bulkhead using an Xacto and a single-edged razor blade. My end mill bit gave up the ghost forever ago and I haven't been able to track one down since. Damned overpriced things locally; never got around to ordering some from overseas either. Must do: an end mill bit in a Dremel is a THING OF BEAUTY.

    As for Morgs, he's still pretty much at the "I like your spaceship, Daddy!" stage. No gluing, just dry fitting - he'd destroy himself if I ever let him get near cyanoacrylate. He just sits and commentates mostly - "it's from Star Wars! Isn't it, Daddy? Isn't it? It's very big! It's big and huge, huge like the sky! I like your big spaceship Daddy!!!! Look, I have a dinosaur!"

    So, not all that much critical thinking going on just yet, I'm guessing. :lol

    Pic 1: Kid knows a Messerschmitt cannon mount when he sees one.
    Pic 2: Curse your inevitable betrayal!
     
  21. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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  22. EvanW

    EvanW Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Looks like a really great start. I can't wait to get mine. Something about #41 on the list...
     
  23. Muzza

    Muzza Well-Known Member

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    Hay Martyn, The Y Wing is coming along nicely, I am sure we will more tables at the show this year..
     
  24. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Yeah like 3 more tables.
     
  25. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Martyn, your engine shrouds... I was going to do it your way and attach the brackets to the shrouds first, but found that the brackets will then fail to touch the Saturn cylinders, which seems to be born out from your photo. They should touch the cylinder as far as I can make out. However, dry-fitting it Jason's way, I'm getting collossal 2mm gaps between the brackets and the shroud. Further, with Jason's method, I can't for the life of me see how he crammed the shroud into place with 3 brackets already glued in there. The shroud is 5mm too big for the space allowed by the fronts of the brackets. Are we supposed to squeeze the shroud, at the risk of cracking it, to force it in there or what? Or am I missing something entirely?
     
  26. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Mate, the best way for my money is just to glue the brackets onto the shrouds: I get a good fit all the way around to the Saturn can. Are your Saturn cans absolutely definitely glued up correctly? (Mind you...mine are a tiny bit ovaled in cross-section, not sure why, it wasn't anything I did, swear.) :lol

    Edit: OH! Hey, yeah here's a bit. You may actually get gaps because the brackets want to angle inwards. That's easily remedied: you just push the assembly down onto the Saturn thrust structure (the big cone it all mounts on). Some slow-setting gel superglue for this job I think. The cone spreads the brackets apart and gaps go 'poof'. Sorry, meant to say first off.

    Also, I found that you can actually attach the t-strips and still leave the shroud/nozzles off for later painting. They can be wiggled between the t-strips just fine!

    Needed to update this thread. I have a hot-country warning re the cockpit section. :( Pics later...
     
  27. Apophis

    Apophis Sr Member

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    Good to see you working on something for a change instead of just talking about it!
    :behave
     
  28. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol
     
  29. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    C'mon Martyn , show us the cockpit pix!!!!!!
     
  30. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    No. I'm going to flounce out of here in a huff, now.
     
  31. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Ahhh c'mon.....
     
  32. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    I build LOTS of stuff. I'm just finishing-challenged, lol.

    Eh - I've been working on this between my son's bedtime and sunset, on my unlit back deck. Then it's onto the PC to message stragglers at the fake site until 12 or 1AM or so.

    Anyway, you want a pic? Feast your eyes on BREWER'S DROOP!!! :lol

    Unfortunately, because the alloy rod that is the core of armature ends just into the cockpit, and the continuation half-pipe dealie is just resin, a few days of 40-C-plus weather does this:

    [​IMG]

    So a little mod is called for there which I'll detail in the next day or two.

    NOTE: my cockpit isn't glued in place yet. This probably wouldn't have happened if it was. BUT, I figure that over a period of years some sag is at least possible, and I don't want to take even a slight chance of that.
     
  33. Apophis

    Apophis Sr Member

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    great job martyn!
     
  34. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Thanks Jerry but there's really very little work in it as yet. This thing almost falls together. I hope I can do as nice a paint job as your Red Y. :)
     
  35. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Nothing worse than a droopy cockpit.:cry
     
  36. CutThumb

    CutThumb Sr Member

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    Its not hard to recorrect the droop , I had to do the same with mine as the cockpit was leaning marginally to the right. A pan of boiling water did the trick, but it doesn't sound like you need that! I then drilled through the aluminium armature and the resin half pipe and stuck a brass pipe through them both and glued it all togther to make it totally rigid . Given the temperatures its constantly going to be exposed to you may want to do this. Must be a nightmare working in that heat.
    Colin, the brackets part of the engines are a bit tricky but easily solved. The bottoms are tapered to a sharp point but the engine base that they rest on is actually about 1-2 mm flat around the rim of the ridged apollo part, so its impossible to get them to touch all three surface (base, engine wall, and apollo part) unless you shave off the tips. I taped all four together, sanded the tips down a touch at a time and test fitted them and finally glued them in Jasons way. I had some tiny gaps but not much that glue or a sliver of thin sheeting didn't fix. By doing all four together you also ensure when you attatch the shroud it fits levellly on all four of the edges. I found this the part of the build is the most difficult of it ,to get all the angles to line up together.
     
  37. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    CutThumb, that's exactly what I had in mind. A very easy small mod. I'll take pics tonight or tomorrow. Wife is sick so probably tomorrow, I'll be minding the offspring.

    I'll be honest here: I don't really care if my bird is super, super square and gap-free. I'm figuring the original probably isn't that flawless, even if they took a bit of extra care for the benefit of the set builders.
     
  38. CutThumb

    CutThumb Sr Member

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    Its a great idea to do it. I decided to keep my engines off the aluminium and build them seperately until I complete them,the lighting and alot of the painting like you as well. The only disadvantage was it was just a bit tricky to keep all the T strips ,engine vanes, shrouds etc lined up true to eachother with out a lot of checking and marking! At the end of the day its what you are happy with. I noticed when looking at recent reference on the B/Y wings just how rough some of the original builds are but I guess they were up against serious deadlines and there has been some age and wear and tear issues. I suffer from a touch of Aspergers so I am that driven to get things as neat and accurate as I can! Makes real life impossible sometimes! Hope everyone does not suffer being unwell in that heat!!!
     
  39. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Its a *****! Can't pour resin, can't pour silicon, can't lay Fibreglass, can't paint, just too bloody hot!! Dammit!!!! How hot I hear you ask? Real hot, * Hot . It's so ****ing hot there is sweat dripping from my Balls like a leaking tap. That's how ****ing hot it is. I could fry an egg on the hood of my car right now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2012
  40. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Aaaaand thank you Mr. Jedi "too much information" Master! :lol

    It is bloody hot. African immigrants are complaining about the heat. I kid you not.
     
  41. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    CT, I'm really liking keeping the engines separate. If you're not making wing mounts, then it makes life so easy. :)

    I know that whole OCD compulsion thing backwards, FWIW. I've had to work really hard on making myself less picky and more sloppy. I think I may have overdone it TBH. :lol
     
  42. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    What?........ I can fry an egg on the hood!
     
  43. Muzza

    Muzza Well-Known Member

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    What a big girls blouse I have been driving around all day and didn't even have the aircon on just had the window down and 80km
     
  44. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    He's a Pom. What can you expect? :D

    He never does any of those things, anyway. Just shows up, smokes a cigar and yaks worse than I do. :p :lol :p
     
  45. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    You have to wear a suit?..... No! you tryin to pour resin in ya shed? No! So STFU!!!:behave
     
  46. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    ROFLMAO!!!!!! :lol

    Sucks to be you, my man. Sucks to be you. :p

    Seriously, I do sympathise. Not fun weather for your line of work IN ANY WAY.
     
  47. jedimaster

    jedimaster Sr Member

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    Nice one taffy, I seem to remember the only completed model out of thousands in your shed is a superfortress / stratofortress whatever, covered in thirty years of dust. So by my reckoning you must have been what ? 25 when you built that? Man the beatles were still together the last time you finished a kit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2012
  48. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    ...I'm hurt now. I can't even top that, I'm just not nasty enough. I'm just going to cry quietly into my glass of warm milk, instead. There. Are you happy?
     
  49. Colin Droidmilk

    Colin Droidmilk Sr Member

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    Hahahahaha... he had you there, son, ha ha... is that true then Simon, only a superfortress in the last 20 years?

    It's bloody freezing here... too cold to spray primer, hands too numb to draw.... but it's gonna get to 40 in the summer so thank christ for you lot in Oz to tell us about the cockpit droop. Otherwise coulda glued mine on and then been really sorry come June!

    Thanks for the shroud guidance, fellows. The beauty of this kit is that even thrown together craply - as my shrouds and brackets are in their current tacked-in dry fit state - it still looks absolutely fantastic.

    I haven't glued my cylinders yet, everything's held together with elastic bands. But I'm thanking the Lord for the bad fit of the too-large interior Saturn piece. It will 'correct' the weird flattened rear ends of my cylinders. The fronts are circular, but the rears are definite ellipses. You can even see (I think, lol) a faint taper on the cylinders in the profile view, they get thinner toward the end. Weird thing is I could swear this distortion wasn't there before I washed them...
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2012
  50. Nwerke

    Nwerke Master Member

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    Nope, I've completed maybe a dozen or two, counting paper models, ha ha. Everything that's finished has been put away due to lack of display space, and mostly needs repairs too due to moves and storage rearrangements. So you could say my kits have been rekitted. :( That's apart from the several figures and droids which went missing from a shop display. :angry

    Oh, it's actually a B-36, by the way. :p
     

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