More details on the Vader ROTJ saber - Please archive

[DARTH SABER]

OK Ill try to answer this the best I can
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Imperious825 wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
All right that's a good start. However his words aren't infallable from a hundred percent accurate account of its history.
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I'd answer that if I understood what it meant..

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However I think we can all take his word for it.

Yet, just because that wooden saber wasn't used in the movie doesn't slam the lid on the controversy of the bottom piece.
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What exactly makes you think its wood???
You can see that the holes on the handle (between the grips) show a hollow interior along with the gap under the control box and the holes also match the holes on the ESB saber which had the screws attached to a metal handle

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Let's go back to square one. The reasons why people who believe it's an authentic graflex bottom are that there's a gap that's a little wider than the one on the real graflex, and the explanation for that is because they widened the entire slot instead of just where the screw would go through. Aside from this I'm not even sure what other reasons you people have for believing it's a real graflex bottom. So please, elighten us with your reasons.
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You can see that the holes on the handle (between the grips) show a hollow interior along with the gap under the control box and the holes also match the holes on the ESB saber which had the screws attached to a metal handle

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On the other hand, I and several others refuse to believe it's an authentic graflex bottom because in the chronicles picture, the surface feature is clearly like that of wood;
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It also matches a surface of metal which has been covered with an adheasive that has been yellowed and whethered by time..
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every picture of that area shows either what appears to be chipped paint
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Or glue, epoxy..
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>, or weathered something--either wood, plastic, etc. Also, there are no indications of any graflex markings on the bottom whatsoever,
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Becuase it was most likely covered with a metal disc (as Chris stated) or epoxy to conceal the Graflex patent info during filming
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color> and finally the upper portion of the graflex still has a metallic appearance overall,
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Because no adhesive was needed to attach grips on the upper area, hence no yellowing or gunk on this area
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color> and it just so happens that everywhere from the midband down it the opposite from having a metallic appearance.
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Because adhesive WAS needed to attach the grips..

 

[Crimsonnaire]

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DARTH SABER wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I'd answer that if I understood what it meant..
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Nevermind.

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What exactly makes you think its wood???
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Again because it looks like wood.

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You can see that the holes on the handle (between the grips) show a hollow interior along with the gap under the control box and the holes also match the holes on the ESB saber which had the screws attached to a metal handle
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Can you draw out a diagram to show how it's aligned with the esb version? As far as I know, the luke esb saber didn't have screws at the top of the grips as well as the bottom.

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You can see that the holes on the handle (between the grips) show a hollow interior along with the gap under the control box and the holes also match the holes on the ESB saber which had the screws attached to a metal handle
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On the contrary, they don't prove that the bottom piece is hallow. Simply drilling into a solid block of wood will give you a hallowish appearance when looking into the drilled holes.

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It also matches a surface of metal which has been covered with an adheasive that has been yellowed and whethered by time..
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Well, we obviously see how it's similar to wood, however I haven't seen a nice comparison picture of a metal surface covered with a weathered adhesive. Would you be interesed in posting a comparison pic...?

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Becuase it was most likely covered with a metal disc (as Chris stated) or epoxy to conceal the Graflex patent info during filming
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Well isn't that convenient. So let's say for argument sake that they did use a metal disc, can you point out an area on the bottom piece that hints metal, or even that the "metal disc" is indeed metal?

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Because no adhesive was needed to attach grips on the upper area, hence no yellowing or gunk on this area
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Right, however I find it hard to believe that every visible area on the bottom piece that the grips don't cover is completely covered with this adhesive.

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Because adhesive WAS needed to attach the grips..
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Yes, but you won't need any glue on the areas that don't have grips over it. Here we seem to have adhesive material all over the bottom tube.

 

[Brevin Din-Shay]

Good grief!

How many more posts are going to be made on what is essentially the WEAKEST argument in this entire thread?

Imperious, you started out with some good info dealing with the L-slot. However, this persistence on the handle being wood is, well, just beyond my comprehension. There are too many factors that have been repeated numerous times that give every reason to doubt it was made from WOOD.

Let's just agree to disagree here, or whatever. If this thread is going to be archived, there's no use going around in circles (and in some cases, putting down others) on this particular topic.

We've read and discussed all sides of the issue. To each his/her own, I say.

Back to cramming for that final...

 

[DARTH SABER]

OK, lets discuss the chrome like finish on this saber once again...

Ive noticed that by using a fine steel wool and twisting/rubbing it around metal tubing you can achieve a very high shine similar to chrome, and a touch of crystal clear coat will add to this effect also...Any other thoughts on this???

 

[gavidoc]

I've removed further items that had nothing to do with the discussion.

Questions were asked, and questions were answered. End of story.

As to if it's a wood handle? I'll tell you this much.

I work with wood every day.

This sabre was used in the movie. The handle is hollow.

There is no way in hell that this thing was able to withstand the abuse of filming and be a hollow wooden chamber at the same time.

Add in the fact that the edge of the endpiece is all beat to hell and looks like metal and I think that you can shut the book on this whole wooden handle idea.

 

[Brevin Din-Shay]

Gav,

Thank you.

Let the investigations continue, all who are involved!

 

[Oohyeah KL]

THANK YOU GAV!!!!!!

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DARTH SABER wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Ive noticed that by using a fine steel wool and twisting/rubbing it around metal tubing you can achieve a very high shine similar to chrome, and a touch of crystal clear coat will add to this effect also...Any other thoughts on this???
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I've also been told once (but in relation to the HK GFX sabers) that it could be made shinier by using Scotch Brite (or whatever it's called - you know, the green rough cloth material that you use to clean plates etc. with?)

Anyone tried this?

 

[SinkTube Jedi]

Ok here is my take, so what do I know, well it all started back on the "old" RPF when Sapper36 offered his Vader ROTJ kit, since then I have build 26 of these things, using SinkTubes, replica's and graflex's.

I think the plating could be a polished brush finish graflex or the nickel plated graflex I have yet to see.

The thing got pretty beat up. If anyone has seen the saber pic of the lightsaber on the deck you can see the scratch marks noted in Brevin's original post as well as darthwilliam87 MOM pic. Just from experince drilling holes without a drill press I can see how the drill could jump and scratch up the graflex like that. don't know if they had dremels back then but same thing. So the MOM pic has to be the film used version.

The grip holes are random. Even if you drilled them to match the Luke ESB screw holes, the 7 grips do not match up where they should be. I have tried, they are always off. this leads me to believe that this was just another ESB Luke Stunt and re-used as Vader's ROTJ. I think it has already been proven that there were several renderings of Lukes ESB saber used in ESB.

About the control box, it think it might be a push button light switch or something.

DOn;t have time to read all this thread, I will do it off line, but it is good to see more opinions and ideas.

Brian

 

[lonepigeon]

I checked the screw hole alignment and found the lower screw holes do match, but the upper ones are somewhat random (ie. some align to the left side of the grip ridge others to the right). Since the little upper screws were never meant to be seen I guess they didn't care about placement.

I checked the alignment in a rather strange way- took one predrilled ESB HK Graflex bottom, wrapped a 7 grip paper template (from PoSW) around it, and then shined a flashlight down the tube. All the screwholes then lit up through the template.

 

[DARTH SABER]

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lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I checked the alignment in a rather strange way- took one predrilled ESB HK Graflex bottom, wrapped a 7 grip paper template (from PoSW) around it, and then shined a flashlight down the tube. All the screwholes then lit up through the template.


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Chris, did you try different clock position combinations??

 

[lonepigeon]

DS - Clock positions didn't matter.
Since both the template and pre-drilled bottom were both equally spaced there was only one way to align them (D-ring location didn't matter).

I just double checked something and noticed that the one hole that was throwing it off I had marked wrong.
OK, forget that previous note about the top holes being off.

There is a top hole that should be visible and isn't (it should be in line with the control box).

There are 3 bottom holes that should be visible. Two are seen in the Archive book pic, the other should be in the gap past the top grip in that pic (meaning there is one hole on either side of the grip in line with the door catch).

I haven't checked all my photos yet, but obviously the door catch side of the saber is the hardest to find pics of since at MoM it's always displayed with the side down.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

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Killdozer wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Are the holes off (twisted around the lateral axis) or are the grips?
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Neither. If you recall the Luke ESB (see ranch version), you will note that the bottom rivets were dead center (in the notch that was cut out), and the top rivets were on one side of the grips, ie., beside the protuding center part.

That's why the holes are not straight.

This is one of the main reasons why I believe the bottom is a real Graflex bottom - cos this is obviously from one of Luke's ESB saber, as well as the fact that we can see the L slot.

 

[DARTH SABER]

Man, Im still looking at that bottom but that edge on the bottom could either be a step up or a step down....Which means it could be a step from a washer but then again it could be the edge of the lip on the Graflex...

 

[Brevin Din-Shay]

WARNING - LONG POST!

It seems we're cruising along here, still getting great new info.

I've gone over the entire thread again, and here are some questions and issues that I neglected to see:

Kenny: You asked about the age of the pics I have from Scott (Wada). Well, I'm 99% sure he only made one trip to MoM, so the pics we're using would all have the same date.

Lonepigeon: About Plasti-Kote, I thought it was basically the same as Plasti-Dip, only it had lighter coats since it was sprayed on.

Fried Mon Cal: That was a great run-down that you posted earlier! I'm going to try and do the same thing, so that we can compare current notes.

I'm going to be posting about what I believe are the most relevant parts of the saber in this thread (to date).

GRIPS

After all we've discussed, I now believe they are definitely metal, and most likely T-track. I still have a question about the "coating theory," however. Was it ever established that the T-track used by MK (and supposedly the original prop makers of Luke's ANH saber) that it was painted black? If not, it certainly is feasible to imagine that they used the same grips from ANH, and that by the time ROTJ came around, the paint was so badly chipped that they NEEDED to recoat them.
In that case, why not use some sort of rubberish coating?
That's my thinking.
Oh, and this coating stuff has been around over 75 years...I remember somebody asking about that.

EDIT: Check out this great pic of real T-track attached to a Graflex! (MK's famous saber, of course...)

GRIP SECTION / BOTTOM HALF

It's not wood.

I have some brand new ideas on this topic, so here goes!
Let's start here:
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DARTH SABER wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Just in case it wasnt known, Vader's ROTJ lightsaber is longer than Lukes ESB stunt...
Im guessing that this is due to there not being a clamp for the upper and lower shell to lock onto, thus probably changing the normal length of a Graflex flash when the bottom shel was manually attached to the upper shell...

This might be why the holes are on a slightly different distance from the ROTJ Vader and the ESB Luke..
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Not until just now did I realize the potential importance of that post, DS.

All this talk about the bottom half and the L-slot not being "where it should be" - well, here's my hypothesis.
Since the prop builders didn't use a Graflex clamp, they had to adjust the two halves accordingly...meaning, to put it bluntly, they eyeballed it. So, think for a minute.
What if the bottom half was longer, and the top half was the same length (at least)? What if the bottom half was pushed out more?

Look at this pic again from Fried mon cal, and focus on the section between the grips and the midband:

(I noticed this is on Wacky's temporary server. KL, if this turns out to be a good argument, do you mind hosting ANOTHER pic "for a long time?"

)

It would be GREAT if we could have some side-by-side scaling of this saber in contrast to a Luke ANH Graflex! That way, we could see if the bottom half is pulled out a bit for sure.

Well, there you have it. I never said that I didn't believe the bottom was a genuine Graflex tube; however, I did doubt the endcap (more on that coming up).


ENDCAP

From everything we've gathered thus far, I have to say it's looking more and more like a botched filling job. I still can't agree with the washer argument, Chris...although I will say that you've put some great backing into your reasoning for it!
EDIT: Killdozer, you've got some good stuff up there also. I'll have to look into it further.

Whatever the endcap is, it's definitely uneven.


SILVER "BUTTON" - or commonly referred to as "PORT PLUG"

These are mainly Steveday's findings reposted.

It has a flat edge on the bottom, and it has threads inside. This should shoot down ANY theory that it was a piece from scuba gear.

I mentioned many posts back that I have in my possession one of those Graflex parts that were recently considered to be the actual piece used on this part of the saber. Although I can't post pics yet (gotta wait for KL!), I can tell you this much - besides the fact that it threads into the hole, not to mention that it has no flat edge on the stem, there are NO THREADS on the inner part.
We can write that off as a possibility, as far as I'm concerned.

Here's the pic! Enjoy...

ACTIVATION BOX

Again, thank you so much for the enhancement on this, Steve!

I agree that the "sharpness" and the angle both support the "threads theory."
I still have a question, though. Like I asked earlier, why would a momentary switch NOT have springs inside? After all, that's what makes it work, right?

Just a thought!

As for the top "cylinders," I strongly agree that they used many GLOPPY coats of paint - no tape involved. Again, this comes from experience. During my first two (horrible!) saber conversions, I didn't do so well on the paint job. I also used SCREWS. Well, after trying several times to sand down the paint and recoat, the end result came out looking much like the real prop!


INSIDE THE TUBE

I have no reason to believe they used PVC pipe! There's no evidence pointing to the fact that they did...and again, from personal experience, I know how much of a pain using PVC as an insert can be!

From the numerous close-up photos we have, it appears that it's a dingy grey substance. I think that both halves were filled with Bondo, or possibly resin. Think for a moment - it would make sense, especially for the headshell - to do this. The prop makers could simply drill down the center for the stunt blade, then screw in the hex bolts for support.

Other "minor" notes to make:

- The door latch has a hole in the center. Reason unknown.
- The rear Linhof D-ring looks brown in pics, but again, this could be the camera flash playing tricks. I've taken pics of chromed D-rings before, and some have come out looking like that.
- The midband is most probably a cheap piece of cut pipe, maybe even sink tubing.
- The top D-ring assembly looks in some pics to have a flat-head screw on top. Again, gloppy paint may be playing tricks on our eyes. If it is not a screw or bolt, where do the threads for attaching it come from? Nobody has addressed this yet in this thread, so I thought I'd toss it out there.
- The grip holes are symmetrical on the bottom, but not near the top. If there is any consistency to how they were drilled, we may never know.


Well, I'm DEFINITELY done for now!

That took over an hour to post.

 

[Brevin Din-Shay]

This seems to be the latest "craze" in this thread, so I thought I'd address it.

GRIP HOLES

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SinkTube Jedi wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
The grip holes are random. Even if you drilled them to match the Luke ESB screw holes, the 7 grips do not match up where they should be. I have tried, they are always off. this leads me to believe that this was just another ESB Luke Stunt and re-used as Vader's ROTJ. I think it has already been proven that there were several renderings of Lukes ESB saber used in ESB.
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lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I just double checked something and noticed that the one hole that was throwing it off I had marked wrong.
OK, forget that previous note about the top holes being off.

There is a top hole that should be visible and isn't (it should be in line with the control box).

There are 3 bottom holes that should be visible. Two are seen in the Archive book pic, the other should be in the gap past the top grip in that pic (meaning there is one hole on either side of the grip in line with the door catch).

I haven't checked all my photos yet, but obviously the door catch side of the saber is the hardest to find pics of since at MoM it's always displayed with the side down.
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Interesting.

I always thought that they were misaligned...at the very least, they were NOT symmetrical on the horizontal axis (that is, some were further from the midband than others).

So Chris, do you have any other info on this? Also, do you have a pic from the Archives book you mentioned that you could post?

 

[fried mon calamari]

I'm glad to see this thread resurrected from the brink of insanity!

As far as the rear D-ring goes:

I firmly believe the d-ring is not chrome, nickel, etc. All the shots. regardless of angle, light, etc. show a golden or brown coloring. I have to go with a brass or copper d-ring on this one.( or at least not chromed, I make no claims to being a metalurgist!

)
This is Killdozers montage

a shot from a studio lit setup

RE. the endcap.:
Kildozer highlights a great case for a seperate cap on the end. Be it a washer, plumber's plug, etc. I think we can all agree that it's concave and filled or covered over with a putty or epoxy of some kind. There is a definite brush pattern next to the d-ring assembly (the lower left pic of Killdozers montage)

It's either a seperate endcap/washer or the bottm was completely beat to hell and most of the edges were flattened at a 45 degree angle. So the question is, what are the odds of that?

Darth Saber's point of the finish being compromised by the adhesive they used affecting the finish is a good probability as well. So I guess I'm going to have to take my GR base and beat the hell out of the roll-over at the bottom and see if I can get the same results as the MOM pics! I'll leave it up to a braver soul than I to try it with a real Graf!

The grip holes:
that's easy. I have no idea!

 

[lonepigeon]

The Archives book pic is posted above (big grip closeup) thanks to Killdozer. Many keep calling this the "chronicles" pic, they forget it came from From Star Wars to Indiana Jones: The Best of the Lucasfilm Archives ("archives book").

I can only find evidence of one top "grip" hole (archives book pic). It's low compared to the "Ranch" saber screws -it may NOT be a top grip screw hole.

IF it was a top grip screw, 3 should be covered and 3 should be visible. One of the theoretical "should be" visible holes would be close to a grip edge so it's possible a crooked grip could cover it. There's no sign of the other hole that "should" be there.
So a single hole is not very convincing for the 'top grip hole' theory.

Plastikote is only a brand name they make all kinds of auto paint in addition to regular enamel spray paint - it's not a rubber coating or anything (Walmart carries a bunch of their product).

I have no doubt on the metal end cap - can't say for sure if it's a washer or just cut sheet metal. I lean towards the latter because it doesn't quite look like a perfect circle.
We know it's a step up because two edges are visible on the side facing the camera while the side away is only the single edge. If it was a step down we would see the reverse.

 

[DARTH SABER]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I'll leave it up to a braver soul than I to try it with a real Graf!
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That would be me

I should be starting on it in a few weeks..(Still need to pick up a few parts here and there..)

Anyhow, Im gonna start on some diagrams which touch on the overall length of the ROTJ saber in comparisaon to an unconverted Graflex...Stay tuned..

 

[DARTH SABER]

OK, heres a diagram I made showing what I see...

The red lines show the concave nature of the base and also show the lip of the Graflex tube which comes up slightly over the putty/epoxy/etc..

In some photos you can actually see this lip casting a shadow down on the epoxy..If there where a metal disc there would be a highlighted raised area instead of a cast shodowy area...

The yellow arrows on the bottom indicate the area on this saber where it looks like the epoxy/putty chipped off around the edges...This chipping only effects about less than a third of the circumfrance of the tubing..This is the area where some of you say there is the edge of the disc..I just think the putty chipped off leaving a rough area.

 

[Brevin Din-Shay]

Everyone,

Please look at my edited post above...two new (and I believe, very relevant) pics have been inserted.

Just a reminder - I noticed that we already have some broken images in this thread. Before it gets archived (and I strongly believe it will be, in perhaps the next 24-36 hours), you may want to consider sending all pics that you CANNOT permanently host to our HERO, Oohyeah KL!

There's nothing worse than an archived thread with more than half of the images gone.