Miniature Spacecraft in The Mandalorian Star Wars TV show

DanielB

Sr Member
So here's something unexpected. The Mandalorian, the new Star Wars TV show, is using miniature VFX for space craft. That's pretty much unheard of since 1997.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE miniature spacecraft.

BUT, in the practicality of TV production, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. That ship would be easily created and rendered in CGI and look just as good or better. CG spacecraft can easily rival or surpass miniatures.

Here is a video featurette on how they did it...

https://youtu.be/GrlTosbjylA?t=2859
 
There's just something special about using miniatures in Star Wars movies... CGI has its uses, but miniatures are more fun, and can definitely be more real than even the best 3d rendered model.
 
There's just something special about using miniatures in Star Wars movies... CGI has its uses, but miniatures are more fun, and can definitely be more real than even the best 3d rendered model.

That may have been true in the past, but CGI rendering technology has taken a huge leap forward in the past 5-6 years with physically based rendering. Ideally, with the right artists, you could match miniature photography and not be able to tell the difference.
 
For Disney, the drive behind doing it this way is all about marketing, not practicality. It is likely cheaper and faster now to do it all CG, but the benefit they get from the fan base (which they're clearly trying to placate after the last year and a half) is worth the extra expense. Disney knows a loud and angry segment of the fan base are the older, OT-centric fans who still get moist with nostalgia at the idea of doing things the "old school" way. It's the same reason JJ and the marketing team bent over backwards to give the impression that TFA was all about "practical effects" when the movie had more CG than any of the PT films. It's just another message from Disney to the fans saying, "We're doing Star Wars the right way, not the icky George Lucas way." That being said, for Filoni and company this is undeniably fun stuff and it's great to see their enthusiasm. There's always some fun in going back to do things by traditional methods rather than employing newer technology. I mean, we're model builders. We can buy fully assembled and painted replicas or make them in a computer, but we build them by hand because it's a fun challenge with tactile payoffs. So I look at this stuff with equal measures of cynicism and appreciation.
 
BUT, in the practicality of TV production, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. That ship would be easily created and rendered in CGI and look just as good or better. CG spacecraft can easily rival or surpass miniatures.

Didn't they make practical spaceship models for The Orville? I for one freaking LOVE that they did this for the Mandalorian. I've always wanted to do some motion control spaceship stuff of my own, but haven't gotten around the MILLING OUT A FREAKING 3-AXIS MOCON UNIT IN MY GARAGE!

John Knoll, man.

SB
 
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Didn't they make practical spaceship models for The Orville? I for one freaking LOVE that they did this for the Mandolorian. I've always wanted to do some motion control spaceship stuff of my own, but haven't gotten around the MILLING OUT A FREAKING 3-AXIS MOCON UNIT IN MY GARAGE!

John Knoll, man.

SB

The Orville made 7-8 stock shots with a miniature, but the vast majority of shots are CG.

Also, I DO have a 3-AXIS Motion Control unit. I just need to finish a model to film with it...heh.
 
This is awesome! Nothing beats practical effects in my opinion. The reason the original trilogy and movies like 2001 A Space Odyssey look so real is because of the use of practical effects. No CGI image can compare to something real being filmed
 
he reason the original trilogy and movies like 2001 A Space Odyssey look so real is because of the use of practical effects. No CGI image can compare to something real being filmed

I think it's subjective. My daughters think the ships in the OT look like my models -- in other words, fake. In many shots, they're not wrong. There's a doc on YouTube about ILM (the one narrated by Tom Cruise) and in it Dennis Muren talks about the transition from photochem effects to digital. He recalls showing two images to one of ILM's old school compositors: one that was composited using an optical printer and one that was digitally composited (i.e. basically Photoshop). The digital comp was clearly better and more realistic because it lacked all the flaws and artifacts of optical compositing, but the compositor insisted the old composite was "better." People are the same way about old stop motion animation -- insisting it "gives life" in a way digital creatures cannot. To me, it's all just tools with different kinds of limitations.
 
I think it's subjective. My daughters think the ships in the OT look like my models -- in other words, fake. In many shots, they're not wrong. There's a doc on YouTube about ILM (the one narrated by Tom Cruise) and in it Dennis Muren talks about the transition from photochem effects to digital. He recalls showing two images to one of ILM's old school compositors: one that was composited using an optical printer and one that was digitally composited (i.e. basically Photoshop). The digital comp was clearly better and more realistic because it lacked all the flaws and artifacts of optical compositing, but the compositor insisted the old composite was "better." People are the same way about old stop motion animation -- insisting it "gives life" in a way digital creatures cannot. To me, it's all just tools with different kinds of limitations.

Maybe your daughter thinks they look like your models because your models are so realistic...lol...
 
I'm all for using miniatures as long as the quality can be the same but I can't imagine that certain camera moves or effects will be as easy. A good compromise would just release the 3D files to fans to print them... lol that will never happen but I can dream.
 
Maybe your daughter thinks they look like your models because your models are so realistic...lol...

If only. :lol:

I mean, I love old school stuff as much as any other nerd, but let's be honest -- would anyone go see Avengers End Game if the effects work was limited to what was possible in Superman: The Movie?

It's not a dismissal of the past to embrace the future. Artistry and technology advance. They are not doing this method on The Mandalorian because it's cheaper or necessarily visually better. They're doing it to get some positive attention from the media and fans. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is.
 
If only. :lol:

I mean, I love old school stuff as much as any other nerd, but let's be honest -- would anyone go see Avengers End Game if the effects work was limited to what was possible in Superman: The Movie?
QUOTE]

I'd tear up my tickets to a million ******* pieces if it were...[/
 
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If only. :lol:

I mean, I love old school stuff as much as any other nerd, but let's be honest -- would anyone go see Avengers End Game if the effects work was limited to what was possible in Superman: The Movie?...
It's not all or nothing. You can use digital shooting and compositing and still have practical models. Best of both worlds.
 
It's not all or nothing. You can use digital shooting and compositing and still have practical models. Best of both worlds.

Absolutely. And that's what they're doing. They're comping everything digitally and I'm sure other elements will be CG. But really this is no different that how Lucas did things in the PT. The amount of practical effects in TPM is well-documented, but in 1999 the PR emphasis was on what had been achieved using "eye-popping" computer effects. Remember, TPM came out less than two months after The Matrix, which made everyone cream their jeans over the amazing the computer graphics. So Lucasfilm's publicity department hailed all the groundbreaking computer work while downplaying all the tons of practical effects. Now we live in a time when fans get gooey for exactly the opposite. But I completely agree that the technique should be less important than the results.
 
It sounds like they are doing lots of things in The Mandalorian to appeal to diehard OT fans.

Even the ILM people were excited about doing it more like the OT way.

Without watching a behind the scenes clip, I doubt hardly anyone would even guess a physical model was being used for flight shots.
 
This is awesome! Nothing beats practical effects in my opinion. The reason the original trilogy and movies like 2001 A Space Odyssey look so real is because of the use of practical effects. No CGI image can compare to something real being filmed

To this day, no spaceship in any movie feels as real and massive to me as the Enterprise in Wrath of Khan.
 
This reminds me or reminiscent of the ship "Nell" I believe? used in "Battle Beyond the Stars" the one that Johnboy from the Waltons TV show flew.
 
I have to both agree and politely disagree with some of the opinions stated in this thread.

TL;DR Version: CGI has become quite capable at achieving sufficient photorealism to maintain suspension of disbelief...but only when adequate effort is invested in VFX sequences. Modern CGI is more likely to suffer from very poor lighting and terrible virtual camera movement. Practical effects have several advantages, and some notable disadvantages, yet still (in my opinion) can be superior to current CGI.

Full Version:

First, I'll absolutely agree that CGI has made giant leaps forward in terms of photorealism, complexity, and narrowing (if not eliminating) the uncanny valley. Techniques and technologies like subsurface scattering, photogrammetry, and raytracing, among others, are enabling artists to realistically mimic the interaction of light with 3D meshes and texture maps. It's a great time for audiences...if productions have a sufficient budget, and the inclination, to pursue realistic CGI.

Having said that, there are many, many productions putting out CGI that is extremely cartoonish (and I do not mean intentionally stylized) and not believable, even within a specific narrative context. Yes, sometimes that's a deliberate stylistic choice designed to achieve a particular aesthetic...but I have seen many, many recent A-List VFX sequences that I simply didn't believe. My eye could easily pick out the unreality of the model or character and pass along enough information to my brain to distract me...collapse my suspension of disbelief and immersion in the film/show. Yes, I was able to recover, but that doesn't change the fact that I was thrown out of the viewing experience.

I recall watching an interview with a VFX artist in which he recounted the experience of hearing an audience member whisper, "Oh, that's a great model shot!", and immediately feeling like he had failed. I can't attribute that story at the moment, and I've heard a few variations on it since, but the principle was that the audience shouldn't really be thinking about an effect as an effect. They might know, in the recesses of their minds, that it is an effect (especially when the artist has created something that does not, or could not, exist in the real world), but maintaining suspension of disbelief is one of the VFX artist's biggest responsibilities.

Having waxed philosophical for a moment, let me get back to the original topic. In my opinion, some modern CGI is absolutely stunning and totally convincing (e.g., much of the character work from the new Planet of the Apes trilogy). Also, I felt like a lot of the starship CGI model work in Rogue One was quite good (especially the Star Destroyer models, shot against the backdrop of the Death Star). On the other hand, other CGI sequences are pretty bad. Captain Marvel, for example, didn't feel very real to me. Independence Day: Resurgence was not visually compelling, despite a staggering number of VFX shots.

Practical effects like the ones being used in The Mandalorian benefit from several advantages over modern CGI:
  1. It's a real model (physical object), interacting with real light. The artists do not have to simulate light interacting with computer-rendered material. It's actually happening in-camera. This not only saves rendering time, it also avoids replicating physics that any human is intuitively, subconsciously familiar with through a lifetime of experience. The importance of realistic lighting in VFX cannot, must not, be understated. Many, many VFX sequences in even high-budget films get lighting wrong. All the time.
  2. Shooting a physical model with a camera and lens forces the VFX team to respect other laws of physics...namely, that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, and a camera cannot get "too close" to a spaceship...or fly into/through its guts. A real camera cannot "phase" through a glass window, for example. That's a subtle point, but very important to maintaining complete immersion for an audience. One could argue that it's a small distraction, but it is undeniably a distraction.
  3. Camera movement is extremely important. Unrealistic or impossible movement is a dead giveaway that a sequence isn't real. Again, I understand that every thing in the sequence might be impossible (fictional), but that's not a valid excuse. The job of the VFX department is to make the impossible feel not only possible, but utterly convincing. Forcing the filmmakers to consider how objects move (Favreau specifically mentions going back to the OT to study ship movement and--implicitly--camera movement) also forces them to get creative, and inherently helps to protect each VFX sequence from getting sloppy with camera/subject motion. This only serves the strengthen the final product.
  4. Modern technology (LED lighting, 3D printing, digital control systems and motors) solve a lot of the old problems with matchmove, studio scale modelmaking, etc. Modern tech speeds up what was once an extremely laborious and time-consuming pre-production process of building all the models from scratch (or kitbashing), building custom (primitive) control systems, working with very hot, very large studio lighting (no longer a problem, thanks to LED-based cinema lighting technology), et al. What we're able to do now is marry modern materials science, crafting techniques, and computer control with tried-and-true practical techniques to ease the burdens of those classic methods. Modern motion control systems are incredible. Lighting gear is fantastic. Even internal LED lighting of scale models can be precisely (often wirelessly) controlled, with an array of effects that were not possible in the 1970s and 1980s...and with no thermal threat to the model itself. Speaking in terms of animatronics, think about how we now have access to small, powerful digital motors with incredibly precise control, wireless technology, efficient and high output Lithium-ion batteries, new material to simulate skin and flesh, carbon fiber skeletal structures to reduce weight...and so much more that I won't get into here, because it's not strictly topical.
I could go on, but I feel like I've made my point, and probably overcooked it a bit.

CGI is great. But shooting a real model under real lights, with a real camera and lens (modern lenses are also incredible...fast apertures for shooting in low light, great element design, full format coverage, etc.) is still superior in many ways to CGI. You don't have to fake it, because it's real. And when you take that practicality and marry it to CGI to hide the rough edges, add detail, enhance the old techniques...you get a hybrid creative process that is very much the best of both worlds. The artisan's past meeting a cutting-edge present. To me, that's just a return to movie magic.

All of this is simply my own personal, over-thought opinion.

~JD
 
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