Message to "all" recasters (RESULT Page 18!!!)

[Ttaskmaster]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

let me ask a semi-related question here:

I know characters are owned by those who created them, but what about actors themselves? Do the same rules apply to real people? Like in this case, if cyberman had created this simply as a Ray Park bust, would he then fully own it? Say it was without the horns, etc. If I sculpt a bust of Harrison Ford, and sell it as just that, am I breaking the law? I know selling it as an Indiana Jones bust would, but I seem to remember learning that portraits of real people have different rules... yes? no?

Actors themselves do own some kind of copyright to their image.
I don't know if it's exactly the same, but the actor (or an officially designated representative or somesuch) has to give permission for the use of their likeness. It might depend on their contract - Someone playing a well-known character (Doctor Who, for example) might automatically forfeit their right to their likeness, as a condition of the contract.

Make sense?


I know of one case where licenced action figures were produced, of characters in a very well known Sci-Fi film.
One actor refused the company (who were licenced by the official film company) the rights to use their likeness in the figure of their character.

Consequently, the figure of that character looks nothing like the actor who played them!!

 

[Ttaskmaster]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

My question is thus:

Does this only apply to replicated & recast items being offered for sale?
Or for profit?

Or can I replicate something privately for myself. Maybe give it away or make a few copies as freebies/cost of materials? Does that infringe copyright?
Or would I own the rights to my private (not for sale/profit) replica and it'd just be a recaster who infringes?



If it is anything to which I don't hold the rights (for sale/profit or not) then surely any kid in a reasonably accurate home-made Halloween costume is liable for copyright infringement?

 

[TheSt.LouisKid]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Recasters are ruthless.
Recasters are a big problem in the garage kit/figure modeling world as well. Recently when some kit enthusiasts started an ebay patrol reporting recasts, an unusually large rash of C&Ds were handed out to kit producers shortly after by various companys that owned the rights to those characters. Most assumed it was the angry recasters giving the license holders info about garage kit producers websites and whatnot as retribution for getting their recast auctions pulled. A lot of kit producers closed up shop altogether as a result.

Wierd how people get pissed when you catch them and point out they are taking money and credit for your work.
Recasters punishing sculptors who are not letting recasters exploit them.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

So riddle me this: I used to offer my BB Grapple Gun on Ebay. I had no problems for a couple of years, but then one day I got Vero'ed by Warner Bros.

I tried again and got Vero'ed and C&D'ed, again by WB. The Vero clearly stated it was WB intellectual property and that WB had initiated the Vero.

At the same time, Coolmodels recast my grapple and began offering it on Ebay. I figured he must have reported me to Warner Bros and got me Vero'ed.

So I returned the favor and alerted Warner Bros to the recast item. To this day, I have sent WB several heads up and nothing has ever happened to Coolmodels. No auction has ever been pulled. No account suspension, nothing.

So in my instance, I am the originator of the replica grapple and I am not allowed to sell it, while the recaster remains unfettered.

 

[TheSt.LouisKid]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

So I returned the favor and alerted Warner Bros to the recast item. To this day, I have sent WB several heads up and nothing has ever happened to Coolmodels. No auction has ever been pulled. No account suspension, nothing.

So in my instance, I am the originator of the replica grapple and I am not allowed to sell it, while the recaster remains unfettered.

It is bizarre when they are hemorrhaging reasons for various studios to shut them down.

 

[Noeland]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

So, what's to stop a recaster from claiming vero on the artist? Is there a system in place that lets you somehow prove you are the owner of a certain sculpt without providing ebay any actual legal documents?

And what about recasters from other countries where copyright law does not exist?

Japan, for instance, is very different culturally and legally than the US when it comes to intellectual property and law.

Just a few random curious thoughts. Not trying to start a fight.

 

[propologist]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

So, what's to stop a recaster from claiming vero on the artist? Is there a system in place that lets you somehow prove you are the owner of a certain sculpt without providing ebay any actual legal documents?

And what about recasters from other countries where copyright law does not exist?

Japan, for instance, is very different culturally and legally than the US when it comes to intellectual property and law.

Just a few random curious thoughts. Not trying to start a fight.

There is no reason. It's based on people telling the truth and most criminals never tell the truth. EBAY used a broad stroke and just pulls whatever, they don't investigate everything.

Here's a example : ( using as an example, ONLY an example)

John sculpts a battle droid . We all know he sculpted it , cast it etc. What if you didn't like John , had several recasted battle droids to sell or anything. You could contact VERO and say that it's a infringement and they would pull it and possible everything he was selling.
Even if John produced progressive images of the creation it still could be pulled. Mainly because there are 100's progressive images of BD's on this site and others someone could use for anything. if you have more proof or a better story then it would get pulled.EBAY is the middle man and doesn't really care for smaller sellers or taking time to investigate everything.

Also to add fuel to the fire , Doug Chiang ( who really designed the BD, that everyone resculpts from) could really mess your world up , because he would have " official " documents and one word...' LUCAS" ...nuff said

And because this is a FREE site where everything is pretty much open anyone can do it. John might uses the same ebay name as RPF id, someone could come in here that's not even registered and do anything. He wouldn't even know who did it.

That's why I don't use my real name or address on ebay and on many sites i use. I have two ebay accounts and many email addresses to try to avoid any issues.

Once you open that can of worms , it's a huge problem. You can try to be Captain America or the Hall monitor for the community , but realistically you need to worry about yourself and just educate yourself more about the system and things around it.

 

[SithLord]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

As I said in the other thread (to which this thread should be merged)....if it is an image or likeness of a Star Wars character, and it is, then IP rights reside with LFL. Claiming otherwise is infringement of LFL rights.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Lucasfilm has rights to the character.

Phil has rights to his own sculpt.

Rights to a character is generally seen as Intellectual Property. It remains to be seen in an individual artist's right can come under the same category. If a photographer's photo was being copied and sold on eBay, so long as he can prove original authorship or ownership, he should have sufficient basis to have eBay remove auctions of piracy of his photograph.

Someone sculpting the likeness of a character is not infringing upon Lucasfilm's trademark. LFL's lawsuit against AA/SDS was, in part, about trademark infringement (but let's not discuss that lawsuit here).

Some additional discussion on this matter:

http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?t=1814

 

[CSMacLaren]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Actors themselves do own some kind of copyright to their image.
I don't know if it's exactly the same, but the actor (or an officially designated representative or somesuch) has to give permission for the use of their likeness. It might depend on their contract - Someone playing a well-known character (Doctor Who, for example) might automatically forfeit their right to their likeness, as a condition of the contract.

Make sense?


I know of one case where licenced action figures were produced, of characters in a very well known Sci-Fi film.
One actor refused the company (who were licenced by the official film company) the rights to use their likeness in the figure of their character.

Consequently, the figure of that character looks nothing like the actor who played them!!

In some film contracts, the actor signs over to the film studio the right to use his/her image for promotion, publication and, of course, the film itself. The actor can further agree to have his/her likeness used in merchandising, e.g. action figures, t-shirts, etc. What is permissible depends on the details of the contact.

There are venues of fair use that the actor cannot necessarily sue, e.g. when actors typically get photographed on the red carpet going to the awards ceremonies. Those are journalistic. If a photographer then starts selling photos of the actor for money, it falls into a grey area. I've heard of one case where one actor sued because photos of him/her became the photographer's merchandise. At the same time, Corbis sells photo rights but the nature of the photograph remains journalistic.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

This might help. Apparently in 2003, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld that identical copying of a sculpture was protected, howbeit thinly, by copyright law.

Phil, I'm sure, has photo documentation of his sculpting process, or can prove ownership of his own sculpt.

He can't copyright the idea of using silicone or glass eyes or certain paints/pigments. But this does look promising where the article says, "An artist may protect any original expression he or she contributes and may vary the pose, attitude, gesture, muscle structure, facial expression, coat, or texture of animal, Judge Gould found."

More: http://ipcenter.bna.com/pic2/ip.nsf/id/RSAR-5LHHU4?OpenDocument

 

[CSMacLaren]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

So riddle me this: I used to offer my BB Grapple Gun on Ebay. I had no problems for a couple of years, but then one day I got Vero'ed by Warner Bros.

I tried again and got Vero'ed and C&D'ed, again by WB. The Vero clearly stated it was WB intellectual property and that WB had initiated the Vero.

At the same time, Coolmodels recast my grapple and began offering it on Ebay. I figured he must have reported me to Warner Bros and got me Vero'ed.

So I returned the favor and alerted Warner Bros to the recast item. To this day, I have sent WB several heads up and nothing has ever happened to Coolmodels. No auction has ever been pulled. No account suspension, nothing.

So in my instance, I am the originator of the replica grapple and I am not allowed to sell it, while the recaster remains unfettered.

Sorry to hear that; that sucks.

Were you using WB's trademarks when advertising the gun on eBay? And did you use any disclaimers that acknowledged who really owned the trademarks and that this is not an official WB or BB product?

It's hard for studios to shut down people selling sculptures that they sculpted themselves, but they can have precedence if people abuse their trademarks for perceived financial gain. Authorized trademark use is generally based on a contractual basis. "Official" products are those where a manufacturer licenses the use of the trademark, and may include use of the likeness of production photos, etc. for promotion of the licensed product. A logo is a trademark (hence "TM" or "R" whether unregistered or registered) and use of a logo would be defined by the terms of the contract.

You did what you thought was right with an honorable heart. Kudos to you. :thumbsup

 

[CSMacLaren]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

I also found 11 copyright lawyers online to answer on JustAnswer.com:

http://www.justanswer.com/

I was presented with choices to pay $15, $30, $45 for the answer.

 

[GINO]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Phil and I created this bust together as a joint project. We agreed in the beginning that he would have the ability to offer some pieces to recoup his time investment. I just wanted a piece for myself.
Had it been up to me (as I'm sure Phil can attest) I'd have preferred it that these not be made available to anyone else.
But Phil, being more trusting and more willing to share, was not as apprehensive as I.
And this is how he was repaid. Damn shame.

Here's my advice to all those who make and offer anything.
Trust no one except your close personal friends. Not loose internet acquaintances.
Assume, that everyone else you may offer something to could either be a potential recaster, or may at some point in the future sell your item to a potential recaster.
Everyone gets the stink eye until proven otherwise.
Stop sharing your work with others, unless they have proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are trustworthy. And don't be afraid to put conditions on the item before sharing with them. If you feel there is a chance that said person may not live up to these conditions, then they are not considered a trusted friend.


About this VERO thing, I don't know about whether or not Phil or any other creater has rights to issue one or not. Nor does it matter.
If this is a loophole that can be exploited to stick it to ebay recasters then fantastic. Just make sure you don't sell on ebay.
It's going to hurt them more because ebay is their by far most significant venue for offering recasts.



.

 

[Tan Djarka]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Seems to me the simplest way to keep recasters at bay and preserve your rights as an artist is to create original artwork and not replicas. Otherwise, you get what you get (recast, C&D'd by the IP holder, etc).

It's as simple as that.

 

[itsalive]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Seems to me the simplest way to keep recasters at bay and preserve your rights as an artist is to create original artwork and not replicas. Otherwise, you get what you get (recast, C&D'd by the IP holder, etc).

It's as simple as that.

Recreative Artists need a place in this art world as well. Without the funds to go after the rights to make these things legally.

What can we do to recover the loses we endured for the time and money involved to make these swan songs?

I honestly wish the IPRH guys would love us as much as we love the films and characters they created. I wish more than anything in the world that companies like LFL would let fans make "From Scratch" replicas "Legally" under certain terms. Like a sale of "X" amount only and then no more.

We could offer copies of our hard work to those who want it- Limited to a number of copies we can offer, and after that we could protect what we made from recasters- since we were entitled by the IPRH guys to do this.

This would allow us scratch recreatives to grow and expand our abilities as recreatives. Cause honestly, some of us get off on recreating things more than we do making original mind to hand art.

I know I'm one of these sick unfortunates.

 

[BDK]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Wow, for once there is a thread where I have to agree with GINO...


Simple answer is only way to eliminate is to follow his advice and only sell to the people you explictly trust. VERO may help sometimes, but it could also snow ball out of control or lead to a situation like outlined where the sculptor was VERO'd by the IP on a report of the recaster. To sell anything openly your taking your chances. Thats the way this hobby has been and always will be. Its just a risk that has to be taken because you'll never have that legal backing to actually do something against recasters without possibly exposing yourself to recourse.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Simple answer is only way to eliminate is to follow his advice and only sell to the people you explictly trust.

Even then it is difficult... because... can you really trust them?

 

[CSMacLaren]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

As much as we believe fellows are good people, there are some people who, when hit in their pocket books, allow codes of honor go out the window because it's a perceived matter of survival, e.g. "Do I hold onto this prop or do I pay the hospital bills / do my kids eat?"

You ideally find someone to sell to that's within the circle of friends you have, but when money really matters, people go outside the circle.

We can trust people, but people are subject to life circumstances beyond our control. Eventually the prop pases outside of our circle - it's only a matter of time.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Message to "all" recasters

Recasters are ruthless.
Recasters are a big problem in the garage kit/figure modeling world as well. Recently when some kit enthusiasts started an ebay patrol reporting recasts, an unusually large rash of C&Ds were handed out to kit producers shortly after by various companys that owned the rights to those characters. Most assumed it was the angry recasters giving the license holders info about garage kit producers websites and whatnot as retribution for getting their recast auctions pulled. A lot of kit producers closed up shop altogether as a result.

Yeah... 'cause recasters are too ****ing stupid to realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot when being little ****-ant squealers. If they can't have it, no one can. Sad.