Materials, Time and Creativity

[Moviefreak]

I know we all agree with the article, but the sad part about it... Joe public doesn't care about overhead, hidden costs to run your business, research, etc...
If we ask what we need to stay in the positive, they will always claim it should be cheaper. We live in a world where imports from china are busted out cheap, and have become the norm.

 

[Tan Djarka]

What I'm going to say may not be popular, but what we do is of limited value. I'd venture to say few of us make a living at this (meanig more don't than do). When you do this as a hobby, a side job, or even if it is your chosen profession, until you're established in the market, you labor and skill have almost no value. If you can find someone to pay what you belive is the right price, that's fine.

As an indivdual, it's unrealistic to believe you can recoup all of your costs. A company that makes a thousand or a million pieces can make each one for far less than you can make a run of a dozen. It's simple economics. If you think you can sell what is essentially the same as a big company provides and do so at your cost, which is substantially greater than that company, you're kidding yourself.

This is a hobby. Chalk up your expenditures to your hobby, and if you actually sell something, it's all good. If you want to make a business of it, you've got a hard road ahead of you. Most small businesses fail within the first two years. Basically, you've got to undercut the compitetion or clearly demonstrate why your product is more desirable and worth more. But not so much more that you price yourself out of the market.

 

[Zombie Killer]

I disagree Tan, an artist offers something for a price, if you think it is too much then you pass on it and get nothing. Eventually you realize that if you want that something you either pay what the artisan wants or you move on without anything. If you try to do it yourself you find it costs twice as much because you are making one and some of the costs that gets spilt up or shared with when multiple of something are made. And you aslo understand that it ends up taking a few tries to get it to the same quality that someone who has done it before has. One thing Matt left out was the fact most of the time artisans have to do their "job" many times to get the quality that is expected. Experience is worth something too. Lets face it, if it really was that easy then everyone would do it. There are plenty of people who do understand what art costs and they are the customers artisans want.

 

[MattMunson]

I greatly appreciate all the dialog and feedback. Super happy to know that this article has struck a chord with so many

 

[MattMunson]

As an indivdual, it's unrealistic to believe you can recoup all of your costs. A company that makes a thousand or a million pieces can make each one for far less than you can make a run of a dozen. It's simple economics. If you think you can sell what is essentially the same as a big company provides and do so at your cost, which is substantially greater than that company, you're kidding yourself.

I don't think anyone is claiming what you're disputing. I'm not whining about how my home made blu-ray players cannot compete with Sony's. This is about artisan crafts, which are essentially unique, custom made items for a very small consumer base.

The friction that drove the creation of my article came not from a belief that I'll never recoup my costs, but from customers (potential and actual) who do not understand why an item is priced the way it is priced.

Also, I completely disagree with your first assessment. Recouping costs is really not that hard at all, assuming the piece is priced intelligently, and it's something that is in demand. I have sold TONS of products that not only recoup costs, but turn a profit.

I think what IS hard is earning a decent living off the sales of niche/artisan props.

 

[Moviefreak]

And you will sell to potential customers if you hold out on your price, it just might take longer. That is what will make it hard to earn a living doing it. You can sell at the price you need and sell one item every few weeks, thus...,not making a living. And you can't sell for less, or you will be losing money so you cannot live like that either. That is the true nature of being an artisan these days.

I have a friend who does art shows around the country. Some shows he doesn't even make back his booth rent and entry fee. So he decided to try a new approach. He sells a lot of sculpture and such, and took his scraps of clay and started molding these quick little trinkets. He would bust these out and have hundreds just from scraps. He would price them at between $15-20 and they sold like hotcakes. So the next show he did more and sold out. Show after show... Sold out. So now, he brings a couple expensive pieces, and hundreds of these trinkets that everyone can afford. He makes more money than ever and has made this his full time job.

 

[CGeorge]

Very well said Matt. I agree with you 110%.

Christian

 

[GeneralFROSTY]

Incredible read, should be manditory for those in our hobby.

Reading it, I was reminded of times I may have been insensitive to artisan pricing.
During the past year, I've done some work for people that has increases my respect for artisan value and your write up has really put things in a greater perspective for me.

Thank you for being such a valued member in our community.

 

[Tan Djarka]

Don't get me wrong, I've sold my "wares" and never lost any money. I've designed tattoos for friends, designed local band logos, etc. The thing is, while I am paid generously for my materials (literally a piece of paper with some ink on it), my ability is harder to price.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable pricing my own work. I don't want to charge too much, but what's too little? I often let my "client" name the price. $40 dollars for what is literally a shiny nickel's worth of material? Hey, you're twisting my arm, but okay... I'll take it.

A piece of paper with some ink on it: 5 cents. The ability to put the ink on that paper in a desirable fashion? Priceless. The question is which side of the spectrum should the price gravitate toward?

 

[Tan Djarka]

Why does a Ferrari cost considerably more than a Honda? It's not just material cost or design skill related, but the demand for said product.

Well, that may not be the ideal example. While part of the pricing is the hand made character of the car, and yes, desirability (largely based on reputation), a good part of Ferrari pricing was based on Enzo Ferrari's unabashed desire to fund his race team (producing cars that weren't as "limited" as they were meant to be nor "affordable" as they could have been).

 

[thd9791]

What I'm going to say may not be popular, but what we do is of limited value. I'd venture to say few of us make a living at this (meanig more don't than do). When you do this as a hobby, a side job, or even if it is your chosen profession, until you're established in the market, you labor and skill have almost no value. If you can find someone to pay what you belive is the right price, that's fine.

As an indivdual, it's unrealistic to believe you can recoup all of your costs. A company that makes a thousand or a million pieces can make each one for far less than you can make a run of a dozen. It's simple economics. If you think you can sell what is essentially the same as a big company provides and do so at your cost, which is substantially greater than that company, you're kidding yourself.

This is a hobby. Chalk up your expenditures to your hobby, and if you actually sell something, it's all good. If you want to make a business of it, you've got a hard road ahead of you. Most small businesses fail within the first two years. Basically, you've got to undercut the compitetion or clearly demonstrate why your product is more desirable and worth more. But not so much more that you price yourself out of the market.

I'll just simply say I agree. I'm getting vibes that things change when we consider ourselves "craftsmen (or women)" or "Artisans." I don't doubt the uniqueness of what we do, but I do doubt the demand for our work. We claim our work to be worth a lot based on our view of the world - the workshop. The teacher from Wisconsin? She may find it of lesser value based on her view of the world. Unless you can clearly communicate the expense, it isn't realistic to ask so much. EDIT - ask so much in order to support yourself. Making money on the side can be frustrating for this same reason, but if there's no time limit - hold out. You'll make it.

 

[Lost in Trek]

Good article. This ain't the cheapest hobby around because so many of the items available are hand made. I've always understood that and have no problemn paying a fair price for an item. In fact, one of my pet peeves, is reading a WTB thread, generally from newer members , saying something like "Looking for an accurate replica of ... Low on funds. Who can sell me one for $20?" Really???

 

[thd9791]

Well, they like to feel included too. We're dealing with people, not corporations, so prices are not set and manageable. If we acted like that - there'd be a big banner on the RPF saying "if you don't have a steady supply of money, get out."

 

[Rylo]

Good Job, Matt. :thumbsup

-Rylo

 

[BAK55]

This is why I will not deal with anyone about making something for anyone when I have been asked. I couldn't be compensated enough. I did it once, but never again.

I will share my knowledge with anyone who will ask on how I made a prop.

I will encourage them to make the effort to do it themselves. To me, that is what this forum is all about.

 

[MadMike]

WHAT?!? You really want $34 for these horns? Are you kidding me?! I can make them on my own for half the costs!

Honestly Matt, how often have you heard that? :lol

No but seriously, that was one of the best essays I've read for a long time. And what you also forgot (though it might be included in the working time) is the preparation. I guess some projects could be finished within a few hours, and even if a consumer would accept that, who knows if he gets that you are sitting on your computer for hours to have a look for reference (which again is time, electricity, internet-connection, etc)?

And to come back to the "I could make that on my own"-thing, I guess the problem is that some people really can make it on their own (and perhaps even do it), but most of the people who say something like that wouldnt even know how to start, as they have absolutly no connection to craftmanship. And so, they have a total lack of knowledge what something is worth or not. They just see something they want and can't even imagine the work.
The most shocking example if you want so (though it also might have been nothing but a troll) was a guy commenting on Volpin's Guy-helmet video on YouTube. The video is entitled "How to make a Daft Punk helmet in 17 months", and the guy said something like "hey, will you sell it for 200 bucks?"
I didn't know if I should laugh or cry at that moment.

I hope that more people read the article in the future (perhaps you could send it to a newspaper to reach more people), so that these discussions will (hopefully) end

 

[Lflank]

This is why I will not deal with anyone about making something for anyone when I have been asked. I couldn't be compensated enough. I did it once, but never again.

I will share my knowledge with anyone who will ask on how I made a prop.

I will encourage them to make the effort to do it themselves. To me, that is what this forum is all about.

Here's where I agree. While this forum is filled with very skilled and talented craftspersons and artisans who do movie-quality work (which they more than deserve to get a fair price for), my heart and soul is always with the scratch-builders who make their own. Any schmuck with a big bank account can write a check and buy professional-quality stuff from someone else. But making one's own requires creativity, imagination, and at least a modicum of skill. Things which very few people have.

I have two rooms full of props and costumes which I use for making fan films. I made virtually every item myself. Are they ILM-quality? No, most of them are not. But I am still prouder of them than I would be if I had purchased them all at The Prop Store.

 

[Lflank]

This crosses over from Props into the graphic arts and illustrative arts as well. Too many people believe if you have a talent, then it is easy for you so you shouldn't cost much. Plus, with people seeking artist on Craigslist, they have a false impression of what a trained skilled professional charges. They see these fly-by-night artists or part time artists doing spec work, or for a few bucks, and they think all artists should work at those fees.

I see similar things with freelance writing. I think part of the difficulty comes from the reality that very few people actually make their living in creative endeavors like graphics, writing or prop-making--most of the people who do it, do so as either hobbyists or as a side-job for extra spending money. That often leads, perhaps unintentionally, to people offering to do particular things very cheaply, thereby undercutting the people who actually do make a living at it and making it that much harder for anyone to make a living at it. Freelance writers have responded to this problem by attempting to form "writers unions", in which everyone agrees on a set schedule of standard fees for everyone--but since there's no way for anyone to enforce those, they always get undercut and fall apart.

Sadly, I don't see any real solution to the problem.

 

[IndyFanChuck]

Wonderful article. You very clearly outlined so many of the things I have been feeling for years.

Two thumbs up brother. I hope the new members will read this and help form some of their opinions from it.

:thumbsup

 

[Sorenzo]

Fantastic read, couldn't agree more. Having taken this 'hobby' on as more or less my full time job it is a constant concern.
A very well though out piece that I will definitely be sharing.