Materials, Time and Creativity

[MattMunson]

I'm not sure if this is pure off topic, as it's directly related to prop making and selling.

I've written an article for my blog that discusses one of the longest running debates in prop making history: How do we value an item someone makes.

Too often do I hear people in the junkyard say "You want 100 bucks for THAT? It's only five bucks in resin!!!" or something similar. I usually just bite my tongue, as some people are unable to be convinced of something contrary to their opinions.

This article is an attempt to articulate what I believe to be a pretty solid explanation of why artisan items cost more than the raw materials it takes to produce them.

The Project Workbench: Materials, Time, Creativity

This really came to a head in my mind during the recent discussions about Sonic Screwdrivers, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

Give it a read and let me know what you think. Especially if you disagree!!

 

[Kevin Gossett]

Nice read! I completely agree, having just completed my first major paid commission. I had to think long and hard on just how to price everything, because all of those factors came into play.

 

[Archive&Future]

That was one of the most informative, reasonable and downright excellent articles I have read in a long long while.
For the few pieces I've sold I've often struggles with the pricing, and in fact for one of them (which I didn't even sell in the end) I was asking for only half the price of materials which the customer still argued with, I'm so glad I didn't sell it; and that article would be a great help to explain why if you want something, ya gotta pay for more than materials!

 

[MattMunson]

Hey great feedback so far folks! I really appreciate you taking the time to read it. I know it's a bit long winded in some parts, but I felt that it was necessary to throw in some good examples to help sell my points

 

[Wes R]

My dad and I learned from his knife making that with the hours that go into a blade that if you charged per hour it would be enormous so he just charges what he feels is fair. He's also managed to find a popular design that he can knock out a bunch in a day in the forge with low cost materials and make a good profit off of at a fair price.

Part of the issue is in this day of mass production people don't appreciate what it takes to make items by hand and the cost in time let alone the cost in materials. When our grandparents (and some parents) were growing up there was still a lot of hand made things and they appreciated the costs that went into it (and quality) and knew that this stuff wouldn't be cheap. Now that you can get 10,000 of something from china for .20 each people have lost all appreciation and sense of value for things.

 

[majenko]

My dad and I learned from his knife making that with the hours that go into a blade that if you charged per hour it would be enormous so he just charges what he feels is fair. He's also managed to find a popular design that he can knock out a bunch in a day in the forge with low cost materials and make a good profit off of at a fair price.

Part of the issue is in this day of mass production people don't appreciate what it takes to make items by hand and the cost in time let alone the cost in materials. When our grandparents (and some parents) were growing up there was still a lot of hand made things and they appreciated the costs that went into it (and quality) and knew that this stuff wouldn't be cheap. Now that you can get 10,000 of something from china for .20 each people have lost all appreciation and sense of value for things.

Hell yeah! I have done a little forge work in the past - very basic stuff, just tinkering with a friend's forge, but the amount of work that goes into even the most basic of items, and the amount of skill as well, is truly eye opening. Just turning a piece of 0.25" stock into a S hook took me quite some time, and a few burns in the process :$

Mass consumerism and mass production has a lot to answer for...

 

[MattMunson]

Mass consumerism and mass production has a lot to answer for...

I'm not sure I agree with that. in fact, if ANYTHING, what mass consumerism has ingrained in us is that you're NOT just paying for materials. That there are tons of people along the supply and delivery chain that are making money from each item you purchase.

I think one of the biggest selling points of my position is that people seem to intuitively grasp the value of Time and Creativity when purchasing something like a car or a DVD, but when it comes to artisan made items, that intuition falls apart. Nobody argues with Target when they're being rung up for a DVD, offering to only pay for materials.

 

[jasonw2112]

I had a big issue with this, with automotive airbrushing. The materials are very costly! Than I have to transfer an image, or graphics to the surface, airbrush, clear coat, wet sand, than buff. I'm sure you are finding out very quickly (with the Mat mobile!) that the products make up more in money. Sometimes! If you make a mistake, and under estimate the time, than your losing money! So, than I say to the customer, roughly $400, $500, to paint said item on their car, and they look at me like I have Lobster's crawling out of my ears! Needless to say, I barter no more! There's always a customer who will say "Oh, but I will advertise for you, with all these car shows I go to" Nope! I say! My time is more valuable, and I have plenty of other things to do! My buddy runs his own custom shop, He tells people $45.00 an hour, no matter what! People will pay, because they know he does great work. However! There is always some rookie that tries to under score work, by pricing cheaper. We both came to the conclusion, that they will find out "Good work ain't cheap, and cheap work ain't good!" Guess what! Those same people come back :cry "I don't know what happened!" We than fix the problem, than charge more (and it always justifies it!) than the original cost!

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that you get what you pay for! You want something hand made, painted, fabricated, expect to pay! I will be the first to admit, that I have underscored the cost of a job (mainly by time!) one too many times, but I learned from it! If you are good at something, you deserved to get paid for it. If they don't want to pay, than so be it!

Oh! I have learned, that most the people who will pay the money for a handmade creation, are artists themselves! They understand the process!

 

[Moviefreak]

This crosses over from Props into the graphic arts and illustrative arts as well. Too many people believe if you have a talent, then it is easy for you so you shouldn't cost much. Plus, with people seeking artist on Craigslist, they have a false impression of what a trained skilled professional charges. They see these fly-by-night artists or part time artists doing spec work, or for a few bucks, and they think all artists should work at those fees.

 

[JBReplicas]

Matt, what a brilliant read and very true, it made me think back to when I first put my Magneto helmets up for sale, and I had more than a few members saying 'that's quite expensive can you lower the price just for me' I did find it quite insulting especially as, if they'd followed the build thread, they would have seen pretty much every step of the scratch build and seen that it was a real labour of love, blood, sweat and body filler! Thanks for an informative article, I hope everyone here gives it a read

 

[Jedifyfe]

Great article Matt. The one thing I found missing was DEMAND.

Why does a Ferrari cost considerably more than a Honda? It's not just material cost or design skill related, but the demand for said product.

If I have 20 people all willing to pay TOP DOLLAR for a product and there are 10 others that just can't afford that price, well the DEMAND for the higher value wins. You may not like it and there may be others that agree with you BUT the demand shows otherwise.

I actually think that demand outweighs time, skill or materials.

 

[MattMunson]

I actually think that demand outweighs time, skill or materials.

As a fundamental economic force, I would be inclined to agree. At the end of the day, without demand, NOTHING about your product matters.

however, when isolating the discussion to artisan pieces, and knowing that the potential customer is already interested in the piece when they email you, the article was really meant as a discussion point for THAT person. If I were to focus on broader economic forces and how the artisan market interacts with them, I'm sure demand would figure heavily in it.

As ThePrincessZelda was also telling me this morning, demand can OFTEN influence the price. It usually does.

 

[SofaKing01]

Great read!

All my commission work was based on what I referred to as the "Times 3" equation. I always took my material cost and multiplied it by 3. For example... If I'm painting a portrait, I know I will not use ALL my paint(s) for that one portrait. So, I took the cost of each tube I used, the price of the brushes and any other material (canvas, tape, etc) added them all together and multiplied it by 3. This total is passed to the buyer and sold / described as time and material.

I haven't created or sold any props so I'm not sure if that equation would apply.

 

[Bigdaddy]

What a great article! Thanks for posting it here. :thumbsup I'm a carpenter by trade, and often have people wanting a "breakdown" of the job "cost". These are usually good candidates for "Time and material", however people rarely want to pay me an hourly fee to layout a kitchen, or drive to the supplier to pick things up. When I built a bed for my wife I thought about attempting to market it, the problem is most people don't understand the amount of time, materials, creativity and energy it takes to produce something from raw materials and concept into something purposeful. :lol and factory furniture is so much cheaper (less expensive too!) than hand-built.

 

[Zeppo]

This would fall under the "time" portion of the value equation, but I find that a lot of people don't have any respect for, or idea of how much time goes into research alone. I'm building a replica of Jefferson's costume from Once Upon A Time right now, and have spent hours researching the details of the coat, and the materials used. This has involved trips to multiple fabric stores, a leather shop, e-mails with a friend who works in the costume department on the show, an hour spent hanging around when I'd happened by the set the other day, so I could talk to another friend in the costume department. As well as all the hours spent online trying to find high quality photos, so I can figure out all the construction details.

Now, this is a personal project, and not one for a customer, so I'm putting in all this effort on my own dime, but try explaining to a customer why you're charging them X amount of money for research on a replication.

 

[Hubbard]

Excellent article. Often, we can separate materials and effort such as when I have to pay for "parts" and extra for "labor" for my car. But when you add a creative/inspiration element, "labor" becomes much harder to quantify.

The rules of supply and demand do help determine a price of a physical object but it also impacts the value of the time put in. When only a few people can do or make something, each of those "per hours" should be worth more.

That said, I can't blame members for wanting to "horse trade" and negotiate on a price. I can understand wanting to get as much props for the dollar they can. But if they want it for materials only, they can go build it themselves.

In the end, the question for the seller is, "was the price worth my time and effort." and for the buyer it was "was my enjoyment of the object worth the price." Lets hope both answers can be yes as often as possible.

 

[TripdWyr]

Loved the article and shared it with my prop making friends.

I often torture myself with 'How much is my time worth?' when coming up with a cost, it's an interesting reflection of your article. I can see the raw materials, know how much they cost, figure out the costs involved in getting and putting together those materials, but when labelling it with a final price, I tend to have a small brain collapse.

Perhaps I overthink the 'time as value' aspect too much, perhaps I value my time too little or underestimate it, but reading your article really brought home to me the 'big picture' which is what I guess I've been working my way towards, so thanks for putting it so succinctly. Maybe some day soon, i'll be able to confidently put a price on my own time and creativity (and then get miffed when people question it!).

 

[nomuse]

Good essay.

I'd expand on what you said in that there are also Amortization costs, Opportunity costs, office costs and capital gains to worry about.

I'm not a business major and I don't play one on TV, either. Have been free-lancing for twenty years and have to file business taxes, though.

Opportunity costs is a sneaky one. Say you need to put three coats of paint on something, with an hour drying time between each. The time committal is maybe twenty minutes total. But you've tied up three hours in which you have to be near your workshop, and can't make any dust. So, sure, you can use that time to play Final Fantasy or catch up on emails, but if you weren't painting, you COULD have been at a job site somewhere else for a half-day.

When I budget for a show that's going to use afternoons and evenings for a week, I bid by the opportunity cost; I need to charge based on what I could have been making had I spent that week working a different job.


Amortization is my catch-all way of saying; so, this thing I'm building now took less time and looked nicer because I had a bandsaw. I didn't buy the bandsaw to build it. I can't include the cost of the bandsaw in the shelf price. But at some point in the year, I have to have made enough with all the jobs of that year to pay for the thing.

Same thing for classes, training, making experiments in new materials (some which don't pan out), making things you will never sell as practice for the ones you will, etc.


Office costs. It takes time, and internet bandwidth, to put something up on Etsy. And time and paper to do taxes at the end of the year. Adding up receipts and depositing checks and answering emails doesn't sound like a lot of work, but it adds up. It is time and it is also a non-zero cost of doing business.


Capital gains. Some art is considered by the tax people to create tangible value, and you pay taxes based on it. I can't imagine this would be a problem for someone making a few props here and there, but if can happen to someone drawing an independent comic book, it can happen to anyone...

 

[nomuse]

This crosses over from Props into the graphic arts and illustrative arts as well. Too many people believe if you have a talent, then it is easy for you so you shouldn't cost much. Plus, with people seeking artist on Craigslist, they have a false impression of what a trained skilled professional charges. They see these fly-by-night artists or part time artists doing spec work, or for a few bucks, and they think all artists should work at those fees.

Yah.

This is something that keeps me awake nights, sometimes. Because there are people who will do it for less (or nothing), and often enough their skills are good enough for what the client needs done.

So how I justify getting paid for my work is that sometimes, you DO need the kind of skills that only come if you do the thing for a living. And the only way you can do the thing full time, and learn those kinds of skills, is if enough people are paying you that you can afford to do that.

So the cost to society for having good artists available is that you pay all of the artists, even the ones who are just starting out, a fair wage. And you keep the cases where people are doing it under the table or as a favor or for eyeballs to a small percentage.

 

[thd9791]

Great article! I do have to say that I agree completely. Customers who don't grasp the true value aren't diabolical cheapskates though....they may not understand the value simply because they aren't in the world of artisan craftsmanship. can everyone say they understand the true day-to-day hour to hour process of an undertaker? :lol communication is key