Lost season 6 with spoilers beware

I was waiting for them to call the MIB Esau.


According to the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, Esau was the fraternal twin brother of Jacob (whom God renamed Israel)—the patriarch and founder of the Israelites.[4] Esau and Jacob were the sons of Isaac and Rebekah, and the grandsons of Abraham and Sarah. Esau was born first and when Jacob was born, he held onto Esau's heel (Genesis 25:26). Isaac was sixty years old when they were born, but Rebekah is believed to have been much younger. Abraham was still alive at that time, though he would have been 160 years old by that stage, and would live another fifteen years.

As the first born, Esau was entitled to inherit the wealth of his father Isaac after his death. However, he sold his birthright to Jacob[4] in exchange for a "mess of pottage" (meal of lentils) (Genesis 25:29–34). According to the Talmud, the sale of the birthright took place immediately after Abraham died. The Talmudic dating would give both Esau and Jacob an age of 15 at the time.

The birth of Esau and Jacob, as painted by Benjamin WestEsau's name in Hebrew means "hairy", and, according to Genesis 25:25, it is a reference to his hairiness at birth. He is also called "Edom", which means red. Genesis relates this directly to his selling his birthright for some "red lentil stew" (Genesis 25:30), and the book also makes a point of mentioning that he was red when he emerged from the womb (Gen 25:25). The land which was inhabited by his descendants, Edom, contains a great abundance of red rock.

Genesis 36 details Esau's family. He took two wives from the women of Canaan: Adah or Basemath, the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah, the daughter of Anah the Hivite. Esau also married his cousin Mahalath or another Basemath,[6] daughter of Ishmael and sister of Nebaioth, upon hearing of his parents' displeasure with his marriage to Canaanite women. (Genesis 28:1–9)

The Bible depicts Esau as a hunter who prefers the outdoor life, qualities that distinguished him from his brother, who was a shy or simple man, depending on the translation of the Hebrew word "Tam" (which also means "relatively perfect man").[4] According to the Bible, Esau is the ancestor of the Edomites.[4] In the Book of Genesis, Esau is frequently shown being supplanted by his younger twin Jacob (Israel).

Genesis 25:19–25 narrates Esau's birth. He emerges from the womb with Jacob grasping his heel. He is described as follows: "Now the first came forth, red all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau."
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I can see some connection there.

Scott
 
Skaught said:
I was waiting for them to call the MIB Esau.

Scott
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Sorry man, that doesn't work. The whole situation with Esau and Jacob was that Jacob was born second and was not entitled to Isaac's fortune, which Esau then sold to Jacob. In fact, Jacob came out second holding onto Esau's heel.

In this episode, Jacob was clearly born BEFORE BIB (baby in black).
 
I'm not saying they are suppose to be the same, but there are some interesting correlations. He IS a bit hairier!

Scott
 
Seriously, you guys are going to be pissed off when this ends, because you're looking for too many real-world scientific answers.

Do you remember when you were a kid, and The Force was just The Force? We didn't need an explanation - it was just The Force.

So why can't the light just be something magical? Why can't smokey just be something magical? When the heck did we become so demanding with everything being completely and thoroughly explained? The Lost creators have been saying (for a while now) that they're going to give answers, but not everything will be answered. Like I said before - Boba Fett was RUINED by the prequel trilogy, and he was robbed of all of his draw/appeal/power as a character, for me anyway.

I don't want to know exactly what the light is, what smokey is, what Jacob's brother's name is, etc.

You're not going to get "real" answers. It's not gonna happen - I don't think that's the point in a show like this - because it's supernatural, and you just don't explain that kind of stuff. They're telling a story, not producing a Discovery Channel show on comets.
 
moffeaton said:
Seriously, you guys are going to be pissed off when this ends, because you're looking for too many real-world scientific answers.

Do you remember when you were a kid, and The Force was just The Force? We didn't need an explanation - it was just The Force.

So why can't the light just be something magical? Why can't smokey just be something magical? When the heck did we become so demanding with everything being completely and thoroughly explained?
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I blame Star Trek The Next Generation.

I think I can live with the light just being some made up sci-fi 'source' that you only understand if you drink that magical wine.

However, even when there are 'it just is' rules in a universe, the rules have to be consistent.

We know some people can see dead people - why? Why did 'MIB' get to see his dead mother and Jacob couldn't? Why does Hurley get to see dead people? Why does Miles get to 'sense' dead people's thoughts or whatever? Why are dead people stuck on the island?

Does this light/smoke/energy source have a personality of it's own or does it take on those of the people that die/it kills/it envelopes.

Did Jacob make up this game like MIB suggested he'd get a chance to when they were playing the game 'not mom' gave him. How did 'MIB' know how to play the game without being taught - does it have something to do with Walt's gifts?

Is the 'crazy' illness that 'not mom', Rousseau, and Claire seem to have all the same thing? Does it have to do with motherhood? If so, why didn't Sun get it? Why was Kate crossed off the list, did it have to do with becoming a mother to Aaron?

How did 'not mom' kill 'MIB's' 'others'? The only 'thing' we've ever seen kill people on that scale was smoky. Does Jacob have her powers to do that now? Did she go down that hole once to know it was worse than death, or did someone she came to the island with go down there? Does she have a counter part too?

Is this 'never be the sameness' that Syad and Ben got by being healed by the water similar to what happened to MIB when he fell down the river light?

So... I can accept things that just are, but these connections that seem tied to rules to the game need to be explained or else it is just a 'making it up as we go along thing'...
 
moffeaton said:
Do you remember when you were a kid, and The Force was just The Force? We didn't need an explanation - it was just The Force.
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Actually, Kenobi explained it to Luke in a very specific and satisfying way.

I guess the white light in the gold cave is the "source" of the force. :eek

I hated the episode. Not because of answers. The story wasn't compelling or interesting to me. It didn't challenge me. I've watched this show since the pilot, and even on it's worst episodes I found something compelling and interesting. This one was just flat. The story, the characters, nothing grabbed me.

I've been generally disappointed in season 6. I was looking forward to this episode to see what kind of story they would tell. It wasn't very good. Y'know?
 
Soooo... thoughts on that the smoke monster is? The way it was shot was kind of like this was the first time the smoke monster had been out. Was it created by MIB entering or just released?

Maybe MIB's soul combined with the light and he "polluted" it?
Maybe MIB was just the first visage that Smokey took on?
Mom said that going into the cave would be worse than death. Why? Because the bad parts of you live on forever?

Also mom said that she made it so the boys could never hurt each other. That didn't really work out. I guess you could argue that MIB was alive going into the cave but it's kind of like pushing someone off a cliff and saying the ground killed them.

IMHO this episode muddied up the mythology a lot (but there's 3.5 more hours for them to clear it up!)
 
With commercials it'll probably be more like 2. All points addressed above are good. I don't need to know everything, but if they don't explain the game, it's rules, and why (just in general, WHY!?) then the whole show has been a waste of my time.
 
OK, so it was Jacob who launched his brother into the light-pool, but he found his body later, and paced it next to his mothers.

So MIB is not MIB? Smokey is a copy of MIB? So, was sending MIB into the "pool," a mistake that jacobs is spending the rest of his life trying to amend? Did th elight change into MIB, and now if MIB leaves, the light leaves and that is why he can't leave because the light can't leave?

My brain hurts
 
Another thought...

Mom was killed by the dagger-that-you-have-to-use-before-you-speak-to-the-person. MIB killed her before she spoke to him. Does that mean that she was a smokey too?
 
i'm surprised nobody brought up (what confused me the most), is that MIB seems to be dead (viewed by Kate, Jack, Locke) early in the story...yet we know him to be alive later, presumably making F'Locke?

There's a likely time travel loop mixed in there....or perhaps the MIB corpse really isn't MIB?

One thing to add....(i don't remember that episode, but was reminded) that Jack got to that cave because the the ghost of his dad (that we now know to be MIB) pointed him in that direction. Seems MIB wanted Jack to see the corpses?
 
I think it's safe to assume that smokey IS dark bro. I believe we can now take his statements about his mother and about being a person and having a regular body before Jacob turned him into what he is at face value. Last night's episode simply gave us another side of the story, leaving us to wonder whose side is really "right." Dark bro killed his mom, yes, but we saw more transgressions from Jacob and his mother. She murdered their mother right after she gave birth. Jacob beat his brother for simply discovering the truth and wanting to pursue it further. Upon finding out the truth - that his "mother" did kill his real mom - Jacob chose to play it safe and stay with her, on her side. Weak. It wasn't wholehearted - he did say he'd stay with her "for a while," but the next scene showed him in his forties, just obediently working alongside her still. Jacob came off like a brainwashed cult member while MiB was portrayed very sympathetically. He even seemed horrified by what he'd done after his one transgression, begged his brother to pause and understand why he'd done it, and then was punished horribly for his actions. Everything Jacob did was for a cause he didn't understand, for a woman who raised him but gave him no real reason to trust her and couldn't even reassure him that she cared for him as much as his brother.
 
Smokey isn't the real MIB, that was mentioned earlier in the thread. He just took his form and possibly some part of his personality or memories. Jacob's brother is dead.

EDIT: Or like above, he turned into smokey and left his body behind.

As for following like a cult, Locke was the same way, as was/is Jack at times, and so are we for watching the show. :)
 
This episode actually brings most every statement MiB/Smokey has said in any form into a truthful light. He really does just want to leave; he's wanted it since he was a child and has been given no real reason why he shouldn't be allowed to. After centuries of imprisonment and the trauma he went through as a human, I can see his justification for killing anyone who stands in the way of his goal... Not saying he's right to do that, but he's definitely been framed in a different light now.
 
Risu said:
Smokey isn't the real MIB, that was mentioned earlier in the thread. He just took his form and possibly some part of his personality or memories. Jacob's brother is dead.
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How do you know this? I don't agree with it. I think Smokey is the brother, just transformed. His life left the body, but is trapped in this form. He could take the appearance of his former self, as he could take the form of any dead body. But to say that he's not the brother now would rob last night's episode of much of its importance, if not all. Think of the "message" he chuckled at in the cave - Jacob left the stones for his brother. Think of them on the beach. "Do you know how badly I want to kill you?" He can't kill him now, or ever, because of whatever his mother did to ensure that they could never harm each other. That was a rule applied to the boys. Smokey could seemingly kill just about anyone else; he had to get Ben to kill Jacob.
 
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