Hollywood’s current state of failure and the reasons for it

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How is it different from a book? Even a book with multiple authors? If the book earns out its advance the authors get paid royalties on every copy sold by the publisher.

I don't think actors and writers that aren't big enough to "write their own ticket" should get shuffled off into the void while the properties they created for the studios continue to make money for the studios.

I'm not talking about paying people for nothing. I'm not saying that folks who wrote or acted in a show languishing in the janitors closet never to be monetized again should be getting paid. I'm just saying that creators should get paid for the things they create if the thing is out making money.

Frankly, to believe otherwise is to devalue people's work in favor of bigger bonuses for CEO's and shareholders.
It's about Artworks/artists and others, being protected by various laws and contracts. It can get complicated real fast!;)
From Copyrights, Patents, IPs, etc...the list is too long! People would be amazed at such laws and what/which they protect...or not.

Automation + AI has changed the world already and it's going to continue well into the future. Technology comes first (and fast), laws and how society deals with it comes later...and those laws can change overtime since we cannot foresee what could come next.

Whether we like it or not, if contracts are negotiated between any creator working on a movie and that contract stipulate that the creator will receive a residual every time the movie is played/sold on CD/streamed; the loss will be pass onto the consumers at the end of the day...and that's why it's a way to shoot yourself, and the industry, in the head!
 
you are looking at the wrong end of the equation. The old company is out of the picture. Once a person as a series of 6 month jobs on their resume, the new company they are applying to will start to ask questions, and refuse to hire them because they see the pattern.
Yes in a lot of jobs...saying that; the studio will still hire you since it's a given that these types of job in the industry are finicky by definition and always precarious in essence. Same with seasonal work/jobs: 6 months in and the other 6 months getting unemployment insurance and working again when the next season gets underway. I've seen C.V.s like these in my life and it's accepted since the context calls for it; the workers/employees have no choice.
 
And don’t forget James Cameron owns the Avatar rights. Disney just distributes it. He created it. He wrote it. He owns the rights. So of course he deserves to make the most out of everyone.
Don't think anyone has a problem with that. But as much as people just love to complain that execs get paid too much, you see the numbers above with Cameron. Not saying he doesn't deserve it, but 95 to him up front? Say he took 85 instead. Still a monster fee, still he can pretty much do anything in the world he wants with that. It doesn't change his life one tiny bit. However, that 10M would hire a lot more people for Avatar 2, or could raise the rates for the lower people on the spectrum dramatically. Avatar 2 had a budget and for him to get that big a chunk meant they couldn't spend that money elsewhere. Same with actor's getting those mega checks. I'm not debating the 'do they deserve it aspect', but i'm saying, they take a small portion less that will not affect their lives at all and everyone does better. Same thing applies to execs, but on a smaller level. Iger got what? 30ish last year? Disney overseas, what? 50? 100? productions a year? he takes 5M less, does it affect much of anything across those productions? Not likely.

Studio's need to be more financially responsible with what they make and how they make it. No question there. They need to be more financially responsible with the execs, no question there. However, that chasm between the top stars and everyone else gets bigger every year and that makes it much harder to pay everyone else as well. People generally don't want to acknowledge that bit.

Beetlejuice 2. We don't know the production budget (but say a very high number, 200M), Keaton and Ortega will likely be in the 20M range. So, on the low side these days for the big stars, but still, that's 40M of your 200M budget. When 1 or 2 people eat 20%, it's less for everyone else mathematically speaking. 160 is plenty to pay everyone decently and make a good flick. But while the stars fees probably don't change much, it's a very different ballgame if the budget is 100M isn't it?

The point of offloading money to the backend (for me anyhow), is Harrison Ford is absolutely NOT contributing 50M worth of ability to the making of IJ5. He's not. Not at all. He gets the money due to the draw they believe he brings to the theaters. Same with the Rock, RDJ at his height of IM, etc, etc. RDJ got his mega payday because Avengers did so well, not because he demanded a giant fee up front would be the prime example. Sure, you can bust your butt and turn in an Oscar caliber performance, but if no one sees it, you didn't earn a mega paycheck for it in the end did you.

Royalties are earned from things that do well. People keep paying to see it one way or another. If people don't want to watch it, HBO isn't going to pay to air it on HBO or HBOMax, or whatever they want to call it. People won't buy the DVD, Netflix won't pay to stream it and TBS won't pay to air it on TBS or TNT, etc. So, you can easily say the royalties are earned because they're continual income from the work done. The trade off there would a studio paying everyone a flat fee in lieu or royalties. They don't want to do that, though, because they lose money on things that fail to generate secondary income. They think that loss is greater than what they pay now in terms of royalties for things that do well as everyone believes they cook the books.

The writer or extra or small part actor on TV show or movie that sucks doesn't make anything in royalties. Only on things that continue to make money. They aren't living on royalties from work that never garnered an audience or weren't good to begin with. The stars of something like Friends should be making good royalties to this day as it is still popular, still sells dvds, still drives people to streaming to watch it, and TBS still pays to air it. They aren't doing that because the studio did squat. They're paying still because of the actors, writers, etc. I think the hesitation with money from streaming is talent seems to think studio's are raking it in on streaming. That does not presently seem to be the case with Warner and Disney yanking stuff so they don't have to pay royalties and to get write-offs because the services aren't making money. You think they'd accept streaming royalties contingent on the profitability of the streaming services? I think that's the issue. Studio's don't want to admit they are losing money on steaming publicly. They all wanted to jump in to take the pie from Netflix and didn't know the full extent of what they were getting into. It goes public and some of these avenues likely go under and people start getting in trouble. The boards know what's going on most likely, but when it stays boardroom business it doesn't hurt the big picture.
 
Residuals are simply another way of saying royalties - authors get them, musicians, photographers, etc. - not sure what the disconnect here is. If you create an asset, like, say, JK Rowling and Harry Potter, not sure why royalty payments wouldn't be part of the agreement.
Studio's don't want to admit they are losing money on steaming publicly.
Bingo.
 
alienscollection.com I'm curious...as someone who's in the thick of it, what do you think is the most optimal outcome? Do you think the system was fine pre-streaming? Would you like to see that traditional Hollywood business model continue? I mean I'm sure it wasn't ideal, but do you think it was at least fair (or fairer as it were)? Or did it need an overhaul regardless of streaming and the insertion of AI?
 
alienscollection.com I'm curious...as someone who's in the thick of it, what do you think is the most optimal outcome? Do you think the system was fine pre-streaming? Would you like to see that traditional Hollywood business model continue? I mean I'm sure it wasn't ideal, but do you think it was at least fair (or fairer as it were)? Or did it need an overhaul regardless of streaming and the insertion of AI?
Good question - I honestly don't know - there's just so many different issues coming to a head... The old linear system, like say when most of us were kids, is you'd create a show and *hopefully* hit 100 episodes because that's when "the syndication money" would kick in - but now, with the business side (and viewing habits) transforming at such an exponential pace - coupled with the fact studios and networks now work overtime to hide metrics from both content creators and everyone else, well, here we are... Ed Solomon's been really vocal about highlighting this issue with how Sony claims 'Men in Black' STILL has yet to make a profit - it's absurd:




I mean, up until recently, Lucasfilm was claiming Return of the Jedi had yet to make a profit:

Screen Shot 2023-08-12 at 11.28.44 AM.png

Which we all know is nuts.

Anyway, I know it can fun and easy to poke fun at executives (guilty as charged), but there's just SO MUCH turnover in the executive ranks now (I came up as an NBC Page in the 90s, and most of my friends/classmates joined the executive ranks) . So much of the industry is built on relationships and the shorthand creatives have with execs - and those relationships are just evaporating as working conditions on both sides grow more and more untenable. Honestly, and without hyperbole, I've never seen the industry this bad...
 
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I've seen many people with all the skill and creativity as well as the desire and will to succeed in the entertainment industry end up going back home due to the cost of living in socal. For a reality check the indie scene for film making still has the $100 a day mentality. Who would work for that amount you might say, those that are trying to get a foot in the door. With a film crew and new hires nobody hires cold and if they do you're working for free to prove your worth. It's called "intern".

I saw a "documentary" on Roger Corman on YouTube a while back, where he said he had to stop filming at a certain time because people had to get to work. They were barely getting paid, some weren't at all, so he understood that they had to do whatever they had to do to make ends meet. They wanted to be in the movie, they were in the movie, they found creative solutions. I can respect that.

It's the people today who aren't really creative, who don't want to work hard, they just want to be handed automatic success that bug me. Of course, we live in a world where most people don't even get their first job until they graduate from college. That's a major problem. They come out with a piece of paper in one hand, saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills and they still have to start at the bottom because that piece of paper doesn't grant them experience. As I keep saying, welcome to the real world.
 
Anyway, I know it can fun and easy to poke fun at executives (guilty as charged), but there's just SO MUCH turnover in the executive ranks now. So much of the industry is built on relationships and the shorthand creatives have with execs - and those relationships are just evaporating as working conditions on both sides grow more and more untenable. Honestly, and without hyperbole, I've never seen the industry this bad...
Definitely. Massive turnover is what happens when these studios become part of these mega conglomerates. If the studios were still independent, I don't think we'd be seeing such turmoil.
 
I think that number is not as big as you think it is.
Exactly. And not only are creatives fighting for the survival of their industry, but now you have all these armchair quarterbacks who flippantly look at picketing actors and writers and think, "they're just lazy" or "they're already rich" - neither of which is true and only demonstrates a critical misunderstanding of the issues.
 
I do think Hollywood is reaching the limits of the safe old IP sequels/reboots.

The summer of 2023 is looking a lot like Spielberg's warning from a decade ago. He predicted that sooner or later a bunch of big tentpole movies would all bomb at the same time and it would force a re-evaluation of the tentpole habit.

Disney has taken the most damage this summer but that's partly because they own so much now. If antitrust laws were still enforced then 'Indy 5' and 'The Little Mermaid' and 'The Flash' would be coming from 3 different studios. 'Mission Impossible 7' and 'Fast & Furious 10' were two more shows that didn't severely bomb but they under-performed. Also, Disney would probably be absorbing a 'Star Wars' bomb right now too if they hadn't pulled the plug on SW movies after the last several turds.


This is the 4th summer since Covid. I think we've only had a few real big theater hits since then. I mean movies that sold a lot of tickets, AND those viewers didn't regret buying the tickets, AND they might still remember the movie in the future:

- Top Gun 2
- Barbie
- possibly the Nintendo/Mario flick

So, about 2-3 memorable movies in 4 years.
The biggest one was a legacy sequel with an older star & viewers.

The industry can't survive like this.
 
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This is the 4th summer since Covid. I think we've only had a few real big theater hits since then. I mean movies that sold a lot of tickets, AND those viewers didn't regret buying the tickets, AND they might still remember the movie in the future:

- Top Gun 2
- Barbie
- possibly the Nintendo/Mario flick

So, about 2-3 memorable movies in 4 years.
The biggest one was a legacy sequel with an older star & viewers

Does Avatar 2 fail the memorable test? Because people will come back for part 3, even if it disappears from pop culture in the interim.
 
Does Avatar 2 fail the memorable test? Because people will come back for part 3, even if it disappears from pop culture in the interim.
I think given the trend, we cant even be sure people are coming back to 3. We have to wait and see.

On the one hard, familiar IP. On the other, it never was a good series in terms of story and 2 was essentially a rehash of one set in another set. I think most people can see the trend and may just skip 3 unless word of mouth says its really good.

Exactly. And not only are creatives fighting for the survival of their industry, but now you have all these armchair quarterbacks who flippantly look at picketing actors and writers and think, "they're just lazy" or "they're already rich" - neither of which is true and only demonstrates a critical misunderstanding of the issues.
Worst is youtubers who criticize shows and movies for getting fewer views than them so they must be bad.

Agree that its not just one factor that is resulting in this crash. Movies budgets are too big, stars and top talent overpaid and other critical members of the pie-making are underpaid, AI threatens to break the system, streaming has already broken the system.
 
I considered Avatar 2 but I just don't see the lasting impact/value.

'Barbie' instantly affected the culture. You can feel it. 'Top Gun 2' made tons of people tell others to go see it because they had such a good time. Etc. These movies made an impression on people.
 
Does Avatar 2 fail the memorable test? Because people will come back for part 3, even if it disappears from pop culture in the interim.
Sure they will because a lot of people are just mindlessly hypnotised by CGI. I bet they won't remember the story of 2, any more than they remember the details of the story of 1. Hell, I didn't remember most of the story of 2 while I was watching it!
 
This is a whole nother issue that isnt only related to the entertainment industry.

The how "regulatory" industry is a joke with people asleep at the wheel. Banks wouldnt have become "too big to fail" if the regulations did their job in avoiding a concentration of huge banks, as well as the 2008 financial crisis if the agencies actually asked what was in the "consolidated assets" they were selling and not stamping AAA on everything.

Now FTC allowing Disney to buy Fox of all things and Microsoft being allowed to purchase Activision in the video game industry (which is essentially the equivalent to Disney buying Fox in terms of magnitude).

Regulation is needed because when entities get too big, bad things happen. We wither get a monopoly or similar with consumers getting no choices and having to grin and take it or the big entity collapsing from all their weight and needing a "bail out" cause they f-ed up.
 
Sure they will because a lot of people are just mindlessly hypnotised by CGI. I bet they won't remember the story of 2, any more than they remember the details of the story of 1. Hell, I didn't remember most of the story of 2 while I was watching it!

Yeah, IMO it's fair to say the 'Avatar' flicks are not top-tier. They are better than soulless Michael Bay toy-franchise movies. But they don't feel connected to the cultural zeitgeist like the best classic movies do.

'Jaws' was filmed on the summer resort beaches of Martha's Vineyard. Yet it was a very blue-collar story about a town being hit with an economic calamity. It was filmed a year after the 1973 gas crisis had suddenly trainwrecked the US economy.

Early-80s New York city is basically one of the main characters in 'Ghostbusters.'

People watched 'Star Wars' a few years after the Apollo missions and talked about how it made space travel look realistic for the first time. They also recognized it as a mashup of other genres like westerns & fairy tales.


The 'Avatars' feel like what you might get if you took a filmmaker, gave him a big pile of F-you money, moved him to the other side of the world from where he grew up, and sent him down to explore the bottom of the ocean for many years. Then you brought him back up at retirement age and asked him to make a fantasy movie out of his old high-school drawings.
 
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