Hawkeye (tv series)


firesprite

Master Member
The only bit that really stuck out to me as weak was the destruction of the bell tower from ringing the bell. Unless that arrow had a propulsion system that kicked in after it gripped the rope, there's no way it had the juice to ring that bell, let alone as much as it did. And if ringing it that much caused that much damage, the school has a terrible maintenance program who should be on the hook for most of the damage. But, that's the absolute definition of nit-picking :)
As I was watching it, I burst out "That building is CLEARLY not up to code! Someone could have been hurt! Kate did you all a favor by destroying that thing when no one was around." :D
 

Usagi Pilgrim

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
As I was watching it, I burst out "That building is CLEARLY not up to code! Someone could have been hurt! Kate did you all a favor by destroying that thing when no one was around." :D
See... I was thinking that the bell just wasn't rung, ever. Maybe the school knew it was not safe, therefore it just became ornamental over the years.

That probably wasn't communicated to the students, so a typical prank would be,

"Hey! Let's ring the bell! Could you imagine the look on the dean's face?"

"How would you do that? The building is closed off."

"I could hit it with an arrow from another roof."

Kate technically rang it with the ball arrow, but they seemed to be disappointed, I think because they wanted a big reaction. That's what's in my head, anyways.
 

Bloop

Sr Member
Batman CHOSE to train in private to become GOTHAM'S protector & remain anonymous. Kate trained in SEVERAL different disciplines, archery, gymnastics, fencing, martial arts, etc, with the intention of simply protecting herself & her mother.

At the time of the Chitari attack, she was totally helpless & lost a parent. She decided that wouldn't happen again. SHE WAS NEVER TRAINING TO BE A VIGILANTE. I'm failing to see how you watched the show at all & didn't see that. The opening credits animation did more to show a realistic advancement of a character's skills & personal arc than some films spend 2 hours on.

As far as Clint, did you just forget that he's a trained SHIELD agent? I'm pretty sure that blending in, remaining anonymous, & infiltration in chaotic situations would probably be covered during first day orientation.
She trained to protect herself and her mother, but my point is that she clearly is trying to be a superhero (Hawkeye), and most superheroes are vigilantes. That's the whole point of Captain America: Civil War, people taking the law into their own hands without authority. I'll concede she may not have intended to become a vigilante, but she is one now. She wears the costume of a famous vigilante and acts as a vigilante. Whether she planned to or not, she has engaged in vigilante activity.

As to the backstory presented in the credits, I still think it's unlikely that even the type and amount of training presented would enable a young woman that looks like Haley Steinfeld, or even a man, to be able to take on a group of male attackers. I'm having a harder time accepting these type of "one vs. many" battles than I used to, not just in this show, so I'm not just criticizing this instance. It's just not something that seems to be possible in real life. If Kate Bishop had superstrength and/or super healing it would help me accept her ability to stand up to a gang without major injury, but she is still a person of relatively normal strength, even if her some of her abilities are above normal. Her body does not look like one of a honed fighter, or even of an elite gymnast. I realize saying that the presence of superhuman abilities would make things more believable, but there's certain premises that I can allow for in the reality of a universe that has superpowers. A young woman that took (presumably) conventional martial arts and gymnastics just doesn't seem very likely to be able to fend off multiple attackers to me. If the show presented her training as a bit more intense and specialized, like with the Black Widow program, I'd be more inclined to believe it. I didn't get that from the animated intro or anything said in the show - like getting a black belt at a young age, as is stated in the show, may be unusual, but is not an indication of elite fighting ability. The belt system of commercial martial arts studios is known to be a cash grab that has little uniformity of ranking and ability among the different businesses that teach martial arts. The requirements for a black belt are different from school to school. The belt ranking system is simply a means of getting people to pay to progress through the individual system set by the business.

And I haven't forgotten Clint was a SHIELD agent, I'm saying they went to great length to show how famous he is, so it was weak how he walked past so many people without being recognized. Even if they didn't know he was Hawkeye (world famous superhero that doesn't wear a mask), none of the firefighters of that unit recognizes that he wasn't one of them. No police kept him from entering the crime scene. Sure, I admit that maybe it's possible for a person to go under police tape to enter a crime scene, walk up to a fire truck, open the door, put their bag inside and take a coat that's just laying there, grab a hat that's been left on the bumper, walk past law enforcement and fire fighters undetected and unquestioned then return to the truck to retrieve his bag. It's possible, but seems unlikely. Add in that he's incredibly famous and recognizable, and it gets harder for me to believe. That's all I'm saying. The writer(s) chose to make it easy for him to get in and out, and have a big, dumb clue right in his face as to who took his costume and where he would be because it advanced the plot quickly, and would put him in a funny situation later. Is it realistic? Debatable, but I don't feel it was, so I mentioned it because it stretched my suspension of disbelief. Same with the scene at the LARPing event. It didn't feel realistic in the reality they put Hawkeye in, so it took me out of said reality, reminded me that this is just a TV show.

Look. I know other people didn't have problems with these things, I'm just saying that I did, and it hurt my ability to enjoy the show so far. Maybe I'm nitpicking, fine. I just had issues and mentioned them here.

And since others mentioned the wine bottles not breaking, that's actually something I found realistic. Liquor bottles don't really shatter against people's heads like is normally shown in movies and TV shows. I've seen real-world footage of a liquor store robbery where one worker fought back and bloodied the robbers head by striking him multiple times with a bottle that never broke. Breaking a heavy glass bottle against a human head that will give way when struck is a lot harder to do than striking the edge of a bottle on a rigid, stationary surface, and even that can require a lot of force to do.
 

Usagi Pilgrim

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
She trained to protect herself and her mother, but my point is that she clearly is trying to be a superhero (Hawkeye), and most superheroes are vigilantes. That's the whole point of Captain America: Civil War, people taking the law into their own hands without authority. I'll concede she may not have intended to become a vigilante, but she is one now. She wears the costume of a famous vigilante and acts as a vigilante. Whether she planned to or not, she has engaged in vigilante activity.

As to the backstory presented in the credits, I still think it's unlikely that even the type and amount of training presented would enable a young woman that looks like Haley Steinfeld, or even a man, to be able to take on a group of male attackers. I'm having a harder time accepting these type of "one vs. many" battles than I used to, not just in this show, so I'm not just criticizing this instance. It's just not something that seems to be possible in real life. If Kate Bishop had superstrength and/or super healing it would help me accept her ability to stand up to a gang without major injury, but she is still a person of relatively normal strength, even if her some of her abilities are above normal. Her body does not look like one of a honed fighter, or even of an elite gymnast. I realize saying that the presence of superhuman abilities would make things more believable, but there's certain premises that I can allow for in the reality of a universe that has superpowers. A young woman that took (presumably) conventional martial arts and gymnastics just doesn't seem very likely to be able to fend off multiple attackers to me. If the show presented her training as a bit more intense and specialized, like with the Black Widow program, I'd be more inclined to believe it. I didn't get that from the animated intro or anything said in the show - like getting a black belt at a young age, as is stated in the show, may be unusual, but is not an indication of elite fighting ability. The belt system of commercial martial arts studios is known to be a cash grab that has little uniformity of ranking and ability among the different businesses that teach martial arts. The requirements for a black belt are different from school to school. The belt ranking system is simply a means of getting people to pay to progress through the individual system set by the business.

And I haven't forgotten Clint was a SHIELD agent, I'm saying they went to great length to show how famous he is, so it was weak how he walked past so many people without being recognized. Even if they didn't know he was Hawkeye (world famous superhero that doesn't wear a mask), none of the firefighters of that unit recognizes that he wasn't one of them. No police kept him from entering the crime scene. Sure, I admit that maybe it's possible for a person to go under police tape to enter a crime scene, walk up to a fire truck, open the door, put their bag inside and take a coat that's just laying there, grab a hat that's been left on the bumper, walk past law enforcement and fire fighters undetected and unquestioned then return to the truck to retrieve his bag. It's possible, but seems unlikely. Add in that he's incredibly famous and recognizable, and it gets harder for me to believe. That's all I'm saying. The writer(s) chose to make it easy for him to get in and out, and have a big, dumb clue right in his face as to who took his costume and where he would be because it advanced the plot quickly, and would put him in a funny situation later. Is it realistic? Debatable, but I don't feel it was, so I mentioned it because it stretched my suspension of disbelief. Same with the scene at the LARPing event. It didn't feel realistic in the reality they put Hawkeye in, so it took me out of said reality, reminded me that this is just a TV show.

Look. I know other people didn't have problems with these things, I'm just saying that I did, and it hurt my ability to enjoy the show so far. Maybe I'm nitpicking, fine. I just had issues and mentioned them here.

And since others mentioned the wine bottles not breaking, that's actually something I found realistic. Liquor bottles don't really shatter against people's heads like is normally shown in movies and TV shows. I've seen real-world footage of a liquor store robbery where one worker fought back and bloodied the robbers head by striking him multiple times with a bottle that never broke. Breaking a heavy glass bottle against a human head that will give way when struck is a lot harder to do than striking the edge of a bottle on a rigid, stationary surface, and even that can require a lot of force to do.
Each & every point you have is completely valid, & I'd wholeheartedly agree with you if we were talking about something with a more serious tone, or even something like GOODFELLAS, MUNICH, THE GODFATHER, or HEAT.

My point was that there's GOT to be a level of suspension in a show like this, but that doesn't give a fantasy show like this (a modern times-set fantasy, but a fantasy still), carte blanche to do something like having the characters do a 'Scooby Doo' midair run or the file cabinet drawer hiding trick, but I personally didn't see anything that broke my level of enjoyment or suspension.

I had a friend that went to see the STAR WARS SPECIAL EDITION in theaters, & he said when the reinserted scene with Jabba in CG happened, a guy in the back of a packed theater yelled out, "FAKE!!!".

I kinda think this is almost the same type of thing, but I do want to say that in re-reading my post, I apologize if it came across as demeaning. I didn't mean it that way & I think I could've worded it better.
 

firesprite

Master Member
She trained to protect herself and her mother, but my point is that she clearly is trying to be a superhero (Hawkeye), and most superheroes are vigilantes. That's the whole point of Captain America: Civil War, people taking the law into their own hands without authority. I'll concede she may not have intended to become a vigilante, but she is one now. She wears the costume of a famous vigilante and acts as a vigilante. Whether she planned to or not, she has engaged in vigilante activity.

As to the backstory presented in the credits, I still think it's unlikely that even the type and amount of training presented would enable a young woman that looks like Haley Steinfeld, or even a man, to be able to take on a group of male attackers. I'm having a harder time accepting these type of "one vs. many" battles than I used to, not just in this show, so I'm not just criticizing this instance. It's just not something that seems to be possible in real life. If Kate Bishop had superstrength and/or super healing it would help me accept her ability to stand up to a gang without major injury, but she is still a person of relatively normal strength, even if her some of her abilities are above normal. Her body does not look like one of a honed fighter, or even of an elite gymnast. I realize saying that the presence of superhuman abilities would make things more believable, but there's certain premises that I can allow for in the reality of a universe that has superpowers. A young woman that took (presumably) conventional martial arts and gymnastics just doesn't seem very likely to be able to fend off multiple attackers to me. If the show presented her training as a bit more intense and specialized, like with the Black Widow program, I'd be more inclined to believe it. I didn't get that from the animated intro or anything said in the show - like getting a black belt at a young age, as is stated in the show, may be unusual, but is not an indication of elite fighting ability. The belt system of commercial martial arts studios is known to be a cash grab that has little uniformity of ranking and ability among the different businesses that teach martial arts. The requirements for a black belt are different from school to school. The belt ranking system is simply a means of getting people to pay to progress through the individual system set by the business.

And I haven't forgotten Clint was a SHIELD agent, I'm saying they went to great length to show how famous he is, so it was weak how he walked past so many people without being recognized. Even if they didn't know he was Hawkeye (world famous superhero that doesn't wear a mask), none of the firefighters of that unit recognizes that he wasn't one of them. No police kept him from entering the crime scene. Sure, I admit that maybe it's possible for a person to go under police tape to enter a crime scene, walk up to a fire truck, open the door, put their bag inside and take a coat that's just laying there, grab a hat that's been left on the bumper, walk past law enforcement and fire fighters undetected and unquestioned then return to the truck to retrieve his bag. It's possible, but seems unlikely. Add in that he's incredibly famous and recognizable, and it gets harder for me to believe. That's all I'm saying. The writer(s) chose to make it easy for him to get in and out, and have a big, dumb clue right in his face as to who took his costume and where he would be because it advanced the plot quickly, and would put him in a funny situation later. Is it realistic? Debatable, but I don't feel it was, so I mentioned it because it stretched my suspension of disbelief. Same with the scene at the LARPing event. It didn't feel realistic in the reality they put Hawkeye in, so it took me out of said reality, reminded me that this is just a TV show.

Look. I know other people didn't have problems with these things, I'm just saying that I did, and it hurt my ability to enjoy the show so far. Maybe I'm nitpicking, fine. I just had issues and mentioned them here.

And since others mentioned the wine bottles not breaking, that's actually something I found realistic. Liquor bottles don't really shatter against people's heads like is normally shown in movies and TV shows. I've seen real-world footage of a liquor store robbery where one worker fought back and bloodied the robbers head by striking him multiple times with a bottle that never broke. Breaking a heavy glass bottle against a human head that will give way when struck is a lot harder to do than striking the edge of a bottle on a rigid, stationary surface, and even that can require a lot of force to do.
It's all cool, man, although I get what you're saying about her physique, I'd call that more of a Hollywood misconception than realistic.

Most elite athletes don't have the super-chiseled physiques that so many people seem to associate with them. Kate is an archer and a martial artist and a gymnast. If we look at the sport represented there that has the most recognizable 'type' physique-wise, the gymnast; even if you do a google search for images of Olympic gymnasts, you're going to find a variety of body types represented, some of which don't look that far off from Hailee Stanfield.

Maybe this is just a show you'll enjoy more once all the episodes are out and you can watch it all at once like a movie instead of week to week. There's nothing wrong with that.

You're absolutely right about the wine bottle, though. Movies have made us badly misjudge how fragile bottles like that are! :)
 

HMSwolfe

Sr Member
I kind of agree in some ways, but I think it’s mostly about the way that Kate Bishop is presented. I mean, if she was training her whole life to be a superhero/vigilante/someone who helps people because Hawkeye inspired her, what is she doing taking stupid dares from friends? That’s the kind of behavior of someone rebelling against their parents/seeking attention, not someone who’s caught up in the idealism of helping people. I don’t find the show as bad as Wandavision, which made me want to stop watching an episode and a half in, and while there is stuff that I actually like (virtually everything with Clint, and I do like Hailee Steinfield as an actor, just not so much the character yet), they’re going to have to work a little bit harder in coming episodes to overcome the slightly cheap and poorly written feel of the first two. But again, nothing’s been bad enough to get me to commit to not seeing anymore.
 

Lightning

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I mean, if she was training her whole life to be a superhero/vigilante/someone who helps people because Hawkeye inspired her, what is she doing taking stupid dares from friends? That’s the kind of behavior of someone rebelling against their parents/seeking attention, not someone who’s caught up in the idealism of helping people.

I'm not really seeing a conflict. She starts training because she wants to keep herself and her mother safe. She doesn't start with the vigilante stuff until after she becomes suspicious of her mom's boyfriend.

Also, the bell tower stumt wasn't particularly stupid. There was no indication they knew ringing the bell would cause any physical damage, it's a classic harmless stunt.
 

Malibu139

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I am just digging this in general.

The Holiday vibe in New York, low scale non world ending plot/mission/baddies(so far), Ren Faire Renner cracked me up, and of course the musical.

I have liked Hailee Steinfeld since Bumblebee and her comic timing is good here withRenner’s deadpan.

Sure you could nit pick but I am along for the ride with an open mind, a healthy suspension of disbelief , and a big smile.
 

NeoRutty

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I love me some Clint Barton (fave in End Game) and Haley I've been a fan since True Grit (Edge of 17 is great also)

I think my only real problem is the editing... there's something not well timed in the fights that's making every little hit feel weak... which isn't helping Kate Bishop any... No building of tension anywhere...

And I've seen that car chase already... yikes. It's very evenly timed. I wanna go in and **** with it!

I mean the larping edit... I know what they WANTED it to look like... but it didn't read at ALL.

But overall I'm enjoying it.
 

Malibu139

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Also, are we gonna get some reconciliation of the Black Widow movie after scene at some point in this series?
 

CelticRuins

Sr Member
You mean to tell me y'all didn't catch that giant Wilson Fisk drop???

I know that sadistic chuckle from anywhere...

wilson fisk television GIF by NETFLIX
 

HMSwolfe

Sr Member
Episode 3 was a bit more fun, in my opinion. The smashing of the hearing aid just came across as really petty than anything else, though. Chase was fun, the phone call was good, conversation in the diner was good. Hopefully the next few episodes keep on being just some light entertainment at least.
 

rocketeer25

Sr Member
I'm sure this has been covered before, but the ONE thing that makes the character of Hawkeye stand out in the Avengers movies and in this series, the ONE thing that Clint has that makes him stand out... is his family. He is a family man. Its what grounds him and motives him and makes him special. He doesn't have super powers or a bazillon dollars or was programmed to act a certain way. He's an "every man" who goes to work. I LOVE the fact that he is unabashedly a devoted husband and father. He's not perfect, and work sometimes interferes with his personal life, but his family is his priority. I really appreciate how in Infinity War when the Avengers had no where else to go they went to Clint's farm, and how in Endgame when Clint had lost his family it sent him over the edge. Even the fact that he has hearing damage due to "work" is perfect. This series is pretty good from a superhero\action show standpoint, but what has me invested is seeing Clint figure out a way to not disappoint his wife and kids.
 

JoeG

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Wow! Just watched the latest episode. This show just continues to be so damn good! Not just the big reveal at the end that we pretty much knew was coming, but the awesome scenes with Yelena! So good! Florence Pugh is frickin awesome! I could watch her all day. I hope they give her her own show!
 

HMSwolfe

Sr Member
Gosh, I really wish I never had to see Florence Pugh or hear her phony accent ever again. That episode was rough. Barely any Hawkeye, almost barely any Kate Bishop either. Some really weak writing in spots.
 

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