Game of Thrones

Now that we know Danny has turned to the dark side and won't live long enough to rule who can? Now that too many people know that Jon is half Targaryon I don't see him being allowed to rule simply because of what Danny just did. He's tainted just by having Targaryon blood now. He could still be King in the North as they are still loyal to him, but I don't see the southern kingdoms bending the knee to anyone with Targaryan lineage. Not now.

Same goes for Tyrion. Who in their right mind would let another Lannister rule given their track record.

Time to let another Baratheon rule?
 
I've been watching #GoT since it premiered, and I can honestly say that I am only watching at this point because it's the last season and I might as well close it out.

I don't know if Martin/Rothfuss (his chosen successor) will finish the book series, but I hope they give these characters more satisfying finishes to their character arcs than the show has so far.
 
Is Bran's story done? I was hoping that there was something more to it.

I am a little disappointed but really how are they going to shock us anymore? I expected a lot of deaths and none have really shook me and I don't think any will.
 
I don't know if Martin/Rothfuss (his chosen successor) will finish the book series, but I hope they give these characters more satisfying finishes to their character arcs than the show has so far.

I'm guessing a major hurdle for the show writers has been the absence of character chapters to pull from in order to fully understand and better demonstrate the characters' thought processes and motivations for what they're doing. While I assume this is Martin's intended ending, I would imagine he'll do a much better job at filling in the details and establishing the right building blocks leading to this point. The love/fear distinction would be a good one to expand upon.

And I also don't blame him for taking so long to write this, since making someone convincingly turn from liberator to monster is a pretty hard thing to do. However, I do believe the foundations were there already in the birth right arrogance of the character. So many other characters have suffered the consequences for misusing a particular character trait that was both their strength and weakness, and I guess for Dany, it is her extreme ambition and the arrogance associated with it.
 
Now that we know Danny has turned to the dark side and won't live long enough to rule who can? Now that too many people know that Jon is half Targaryon I don't see him being allowed to rule simply because of what Danny just did. He's tainted just by having Targaryon blood now. He could still be King in the North as they are still loyal to him, but I don't see the southern kingdoms bending the knee to anyone with Targaryan lineage. Not now.

Same goes for Tyrion. Who in their right mind would let another Lannister rule given their track record.

Time to let another Baratheon rule?

After last night, I'm thinking it's time for a republic, personally...

I've been watching #GoT since it premiered, and I can honestly say that I am only watching at this point because it's the last season and I might as well close it out.

I don't know if Martin/Rothfuss (his chosen successor) will finish the book series, but I hope they give these characters more satisfying finishes to their character arcs than the show has so far.

I think the books will end up in largely the same place, but I think the journey to that point will be handled much better. I certainly hope it will, anyway.

Is Bran's story done? I was hoping that there was something more to it.

I am a little disappointed but really how are they going to shock us anymore? I expected a lot of deaths and none have really shook me and I don't think any will.

Sorry! There isn't time for that. Bran's done, Bronn's done, Tormund's done, Brienne's done. We're movin' on!

Anyway...

I thought it was a terrible episode that fell victim to most of the worst flaws of this season and the last season.

To be clear, the individual plot points that were hit were fine. They're workable. Could even be really good. But the way the showrunners have handled these things is...deeply, deeply flawed and it results in a pretty terrible execution that's big on spectacle, but short on characterization.

I'm not bothered that Dany had her heel turn. Not in and of itself. I can think back to the books and see how Dany is a tragic figure, and can also see how she's a terrible, terrible ruler and a much better conqueror. I can see how -- assuming it happens in the books -- the stuff with Jon along with many of the other misfortunes that befall her this season would finally push her over the edge.

A lot of the stuff we see in the books leads up to this, especially her time in Mereen. Dany tries to learn to rule, and ultimately learns that she can't. She doesn't have the patience for it, she doesn't have the head for it, and she's not politically adept enough to pull it off. She can lead people, build up a following, but she's much, much better at slaughtering her enemies. Her story in Book 5 is basically her struggling with her internal instinct to conquer vs. her instinct to rule justly. Jon's struggle is between his duty to do the right thing and his aversion to leading (which has the paradoxical effect of actually inspiring people to follow him). All this gets at the fundamental drama of their character arcs, namely that they struggle against their own natural instincts (indeed, their very natures) and the desires they have to be different as well as external pressures.

Time and again, Dany has been rejected and abused when she tried to make the world a better place. She also has a vicious, vengeful streak to those who've wronged her. Her story is a terrific villain story because she's the villain who wanted to be good. The other thing to bear in mind is that the books have an interesting quirk of telling everything from the characters' perspectives, meaning we are dealing with "unreliable narrators." Even when they write in 3rd person, the 3rd person view is colored by the character's perspective. So, it's not just people who have wronged Dany in an objective sense, it's people that Dany perceives as having wronged her. That's a key difference.

I suspect that, if and when this moment happens in the book, it will therefore be handled much, much better. We'll have seen the gradual descent into madness. We'll see the connections and understand why she ultimately makes the choice to engulf King's Landing in flame without pity or mercy, and rule through terror instead, which she will use to -- in her mind -- force the world to be a better place. Her version of "breaking the wheel" would be something like destroying the great houses that oppose her utterly and thereby set herself up as the only center of power (although "breaking the wheel" may just be a concept that the showrunners created, rather than Martin).

In that sense, I can see her story as being bittersweet, even tragic, as Martin describes, even if the actual end of the story overall is somewhat happier.

The problem is that the show hasn't done any of the heavy lifting to get to this point. Dany has had moments of ruthlessness, but the show has played them as moments of awesomeness, as cool badass scenes that inspire people to buy "Mother of Dragons" tee shirts, or as bad people getting their just desserts (e.g., Viserys and his "crown of gold"). The show has built up dragons themselves as these super cool creatures that win wars and stuff.

What the show hasn't done, though, is demonstrate that Dany has the potential to do THIS in any way. It's set her up as a heroine, without lacing that setup with enough of the subtle (or less than subtle) hints needed to make her heel-turn believable. Instead, it just feels like railroading, and Dany becomes insane because...uh...Jon wouldn't sleep with her and she's lonely, and oh yeah don't forget about the Targaeryan coin flip thing. Part of that is because we don't have Dany's internal monologue to lay some of this out for us, but a big part of it is that the show overall has simply rushed through the last two seasons, and a lot of the post-book plot.

It's felt more often like ticking bullet points off of an outline, and little else. Or it's felt like the showrunners had neither the desire nor the wherewithal to handle the complexity of the source material and run with it. So, Dorne is pointless and feels like a detour that nobody cares about, and is then done away with just as quickly. The Iron Islands are likewise sidelined because, meh, who cares about 'em. Euron dies as he lived on the show: pointless and extra. Mugging for the camera, but serving little purpose beyond that of a pantomime villain.

Cersei's death lacks any of the subtlety we'd expect (and since the show cut the bit about the valonqar, we don't get an answer there), and her purpose seems basically to just be a trigger for Dany's lunacy.

Jaime's arc -- which seems like that of redemption -- is just as quickly abandoned because >shrug< he loves Cersei and...uh....sorry, Brienne. Whatevs. He's off to King's Landing.

All of this stuff just...happens. The groundwork isn't laid for it to be anything other than visually spectacular, but ultimately hollow. It actually feels like a betrayal of the characters, and one done for pure shock value. Either the showrunners were purposely hiding the ball just so they could have the big reveal of "Surprise! She's nutso!" or they didn't understand their own show and realize that they'd taken Dany too far into hero territory, and couldn't simply "force" her to be insane.

I saw some of this last season with the "conflict" between Arya and Sansa, which was never, ever believable and always felt forced and stupid, and as if it was done more just to allow for a big audience reveal when they killed Littlefinger. It was less about the internal, organic development of characters and them behaving in ways that made sense, and more about "Hmm. We need the story to go here, so...uh...the characters do X. There. That solves it." You can have plot-driven stories. You can serve the needs of your plot narrative in storytelling. But you have to do it in a way that is internally consistent with the world and characters and story you've built up to that point.

These guys....didn't do that.

So, Dany is crazy by DM fiat, and "no one" will probably kill her next episode.
 
I agree “no one” will likely kill Dany. I kinda feel that Arya is basically Death. She seems to be at what ever location a big name character dies. Father, Brother, Mom, adopted bro ( Theron ), Mountain, Red witch, Night frosty King, Jorah, Jamie, cersi, Robert Baratheon. Idk she gets around.

Also helps Watching her climb up on horse.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death,
 
I don't know if Martin/Rothfuss (his chosen successor) will finish the book series, but I hope they give these characters more satisfying finishes to their character arcs than the show has so far.

I think the books will end up in largely the same place, but I think the journey to that point will be handled much better. I certainly hope it will, anyway.

As you mentioned, I think having the POV style perspective of his writing will handle things much better while still arriving at the same basic end

Early on in the series the show did an excellent job of creating scenes to get that POV across. One of the most memorable was the scene between Robert and Cersei. It distilled everything down and told us so much about those characters and their relationships.


Same with the Jamie and Brienne scene in the tub back in Harrenhal

Stuff like that has been missing from the last 2 seasons. We got some of that back in the episode before the battle of winterfell, but not enough where needed

I don't believe it in any way, but, if you take a cynical look at things, you could say Martin dragged his heels writing while waiting to see how things were received so he could course adjust as needed. He figured let them test out the ending for him :lol:
 
Early on in the series the show did an excellent job of creating scenes to get that POV across. One of the most memorable was the scene between Robert and Cersei. It distilled everything down and told us so much about those characters and their relationships.


This is a perfect example of when the show's writing was quite good. This scene wasn't even in the books. The showrunners created it themselves and it felt so natural and fit in with the overall tone. Lately they haven't been able to find that sweetspot and that's whats so disappointing.
 
I think they've just kind of checked out. Early on, this show was their baby. It was their job to bring it to the screen, and to knock it out of the park. But after many years and a pretty complex production schedule, they're ready to move on to other things, and it shows in the slap-dash approach to the last two seasons and the general decline in writing quality. These guys have checked out. They're already using GoT as a springboard to other projects with HBO and the rumored Star Wars trilogy -- which I will now be wary of seeing.

But yes, early on, the scenes they added and the streamlining they did with the story worked really well. Now? Now they're just rushing through their outline and making sure to deliver visually spectacular sequences to run in promos and show in still photos.
 
I enjoyed it, as a Dragon blowing sh%t up episode, BUT...

The problem with current GOT is the fan service... which normally is FINE, you SHOULD service fans... but every favorite main character doesn't need to be killed by another main character to have impact.

For example, this episode alone:

Dragon blows a hole through the gate behind the Lannister army guy (don't know his name... looks like a Disney prince). He gets hit with fire so hot it kills a horse, but he's alive and fine so GREY WORM SPECIFICALLY can kill him.

A fleet of ships, and uncle Grey Joy is the only one who washes up on shore SPECIFICALLY so he can fight Jamie Lannister to the death.

Thousands and thousands of people, but The Hound still can run into his zombie brother so they can have it out.

Yeah you needed Hound vs. Brother Zombie... but if they took their time they could have had it be a stand off that wasn't just conveniently "Ah... we meet on the stairwell! What luck! time to die!"

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Jamie and Cersei still live... cuz they were only killed by bricks... and there aren't a lot of hardcore brick fans out there.

"I wanted Arya to kill Cersei! Not bricks! BOOOO!!!"

No one wants to see a pile of bricks sitting on the Iron Throne.

Oh... and as I was about to fall asleep, hoping to dream of Dragon's obliterating crap, suddenly it hit me....

"Wait... Now that I've seen a single dragon could do all that damage... Why didn't they just continually carpet bomb the white walkers, over and over and over and over and over... and... over.....and.....

*falls asleep*

Anyway, Arya still rules.
 
CAEB3138-5814-4973-9978-C13DB2E4B2B7.jpeg
Seeing this show fall to hell is the reason I never watched this show.
 
While I do feel Danni’s character development this season is really rushed, Ive always felt this its final destination. Shes always been a conqueror, not a just and wise ruler of the people. Always needing one of her beloved and trusted advisors talk her down. Remove those that she trusts and loves, leave her surrounded by those that feel neither for her, and what are you left with?

Really though this season should have been two separate seasons. One being the Living vs the Dead, and the last being the Battle for the Throne. Its a shame its so rushed

And for those of you that still dont think this was always Danni’s final destination, I leave you with this
15ACEE06-E818-4CBE-935E-7069ABC40817.jpeg
 
I enjoyed it, as a Dragon blowing sh%t up episode, BUT...

Oh... and as I was about to fall asleep, hoping to dream of Dragon's obliterating crap, suddenly it hit me....

"Wait... Now that I've seen a single dragon could do all that damage... Why didn't they just continually carpet bomb the white walkers, over and over and over and over and over... and... over.....and.....

*falls asleep*

Anyway, Arya still rules.

I believe this is why they purposefully brought in the snow/cold storm that put out dragon fire. It negated the ability for Danny's dragons to have much affect on the dead.
 
While I do feel Danni’s character development this season is really rushed, Ive always felt this its final destination. Shes always been a conqueror, not a just and wise ruler of the people. Always needing one of her beloved and trusted advisors talk her down. Remove those that she trusts and loves, leave her surrounded by those that feel neither for her, and what are you left with?

Really though this season should have been two separate seasons. One being the Living vs the Dead, and the last being the Battle for the Throne. Its a shame its so rushed

And for those of you that still dont think this was always Danni’s final destination, I leave you with this
View attachment 1018940
Help, what it the picture from. Dream?
 
‘Game of Thrones’ Needed to Earn Daenerys’ Decision; It Failed

"Over the course of the last two seasons of Game of Thrones, fans have argued about Daenerys. As recently as last week, I wrote about how the show had failed to justify Daenerys’ trajectory. The show was pushing her to be more volatile and insane, but also had done little in the way of her actions to make that turn believable. The series has felt insanely rushed in its closing seasons (a baffling decision since I don’t think anyone at HBO was saying, “Please, wrap up this hit show”), and nowhere is that clearer than in how muddled Daenerys’ arc has become. You could run two competing articles where one person claims that the show hasn’t earned Daenerys’ heel turn and another where you can say it’s been headed in that direction the whole time, but even to the latter point, it didn’t stick the landing.

Sometimes it’s good for a character to be enigmatic and leave viewers guessing, but Daenerys is not that character. She’s not some unknowable being. She’s a queen fighting to take the throne. However, her actions have been at cross-purposes so there’s no clear descent into madness or build up to her actions in “The Bells.” The Daenerys of previous seasons was in a heroic mold. She could be brutal against her enemies, but she had an affinity for the downtrodden. Slaves like Missandei and Grey Worm became her closest advisors. But because the show needed to push her towards a darker path, she started to rely more on “destiny” and entitlement for the throne even though her actions for the majority of the series were about trying to rule fairly and justly. When there were uprisings in Essos, she didn’t indiscriminately burn the people until they fell in line. She had to wrestle with upheaval and find solutions.

At some point, showrunners D.B. Weiss and David Benioff made the decision that the dramatic tension of Daenery’s character should be based around unpredictability. They pursued this by making her more isolated. She loses her dragons, she loses her advisors, and she’s betrayed by some of the people closest to her. Then in “The Bells” they reiterate the line about how when a Targaryen is born, “the gods toss a coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.” That may be great for dramatic tension, but it’s horrible for character development; it says that what you’ve done is create someone who doesn’t have a core set of values as much as they have a 50/50 shot of behaving one of two opposite behaviors. Everything this character has been through gets tossed out the window in favor of random chance. Maybe you could get away with that if we had never met Daenerys Targaryen before. It doesn’t work when have eight seasons of spending time with the character and knowing how she relates to other people.

You can see in “The Bells” how the writers are straining to explain Daenerys’ eventual choice. Her close advisors Missandei and Jorah are dead. Varys and Jon have betrayed her. Even though Machiavelli doesn’t exist in this world, she chooses that it’s better to be feared than to be loved because the people who loved her are either dead or betrayed her. Let us set aside this is a shockingly myopic view for someone who has literally ruled in Essos. This isn’t Daenerys’ first rodeo, but if this loss and betrayal was supposed to transform her, then we needed to see that transformation, not have it be two episodes after she was willing to risk her life for the fate for the world in “The Long Night.”

But even then, you have to get Daenerys to a place where she would willingly murder thousands of people after she’s won. That’s the kicker in “The Bells.” If the show had played it differently where Daenerys gets impatient for the bells and starts destroying things before the bells have had a chance to ring, that would have worked because it would speak to her impatience and being so close to her goal that she can’t risk losing it. It would also add an air of tragedy–that if she had just waited a few more moments, lives could have been spared, but she was so concerned with herself, she didn’t want to wait. While still a rushed conclusion, it would at least have a reasonable motivation to it. But she’s won! She knows she’s won! And she chooses to murder thousands of innocent people for no reason!

One can make the argument that the show has always been headed here. You can say Daenerys burns people all the time, and that’s true. However, she burns people who have wronged her. She’s reactive, and her vengeance is swift, but she doesn’t just kill people for no reason. Run down the list: Mirri Maz Duur, House of the Undying, Astapor, Masters of Meereen, the Vaes Dothrak, and the Wagon Train. Daenerys didn’t start those fights, but she ended them. Yet her reasoning for burning thousands of people to death in a battle she’s already won is suddenly, “I guess I need to rule by fear because my BFFs are dead.” That makes no sense! Cersei is a character who I absolutely believe would kills thousands of innocents to achieve her goals. When Cersei blew up the Great Sept of Baelor, no one questioned it because we knew she was ruthless and didn’t care about killing innocent people. But for Daenerys, there’s a sizable gap between burning your enemies and burning thousands of innocent people in a battle you’ve already won.

Given all of this, it looks like Weiss and Benioff attached themselves to two ideas to close out the series. First, that Daenerys, as a Targaryen, walks a thin line between greatness and madness even though her “madness” seems only to have emerged late in the game and for flimsy reasons of isolation. Second, that those who are perceived as heroes are capable of great atrocities in their quest for power, which would work except toasting all your subjects when you’ve already won the battle is nonsensical and would require levels of madness that are clear and unambiguous. These two ideas do not work together because one is built on not knowing which way Daenerys will go, and the other is built on sending her on a path so clear that the evidence for it is insurmountable.

The failure to justify Daenerys’ choice to raze King’s Landing is emblematic of the show’s rushed conclusion and how it has failed her character and her story. Given more time, we could see Daenerys’ descent from confident ruler of Essos to isolated, paranoid maniac. Given more time, we could see how greatness morphs into madness and no notices or comments because they’re attached to an ideal or they’re willing to ignore clear warning signs (like executing innocents as opposed to people who have tried to kill you or enslave you). There is a way to get to Daenerys, flying high above King’s Landing, deciding to burn the whole thing down even though she’s already victorious. But “The Bells” didn’t get there. It wasn’t even close."
 
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