Game of Thrones

[CutThumb]

Normally I would have had to wait for the series to end before I could have caught up with the rest of you, but friends invited me to watch it with them

I wish I hadn't.

There were parts of the seventh run when characters started acting in bizarre ways, the most obvious one being the Arya/Sansa falling out that felt totally at odds with the series and their bond. Then there were the daft battle plans and stupid strategies and wierd ideas and decisions and those strange, impossibly wrong time scales that just felt so off.

I was worried then but hoped it was just maybe a wobble because of the complicated and more difficult series end to come. Thats where they would have spent their time ,getting it right, I hoped.

I was so so wrong. I despair about how much I got that all so, so terribly wrong.

The last two episodes have wiped out almost everything I loved and cared about in the show.

It feels horribly like they fired all the original creative team and replaced them with a bunch of emergency hack writers and directors that came in just to finish it up as quickly as they could. They have little to no respect for the characters, the life changing decisions they make, the costly consequence of those action in and for the world that they lived in and how it should all work have worked out after for them and all these seasons of great storytelling. I should weep for the wastage, it tires me to think what could have been.

Instead we're operating on "Hollywood" rules now.Bad Hollywood rules. Where as the first GOT series actually changed the way many TV shows and some movies were written and made they've succumbed to their own vanity. Destroying everything that made the show so compelling and watchable for sell out shock moments, needlessly soap boxing character to make dramas, and vast OOT CGI spectacles which they then perversely hide in a cloak of darkness so deep and distracting you can't tell what's going on.

I didn't think I could feel such a dark and painful disappointment for these last episodes as I do with this series. I cared deeply about who and how the main characters , both the good and evil , survived or met their deaths in this final chapter.

I don't now. I cannot see how they can redeem the show. Neither Jon or Dany deserve to sit on the Throne.

I doubt that I will even buy the final DVD to add to the collection.

The Night King may be gone but before he went, he and that episode froze and killed my most of my respect for GOT more thoroughly than a dagger in the heart.

That stupid death for Rhaegal murdered the rest of my love for it.

No dream of spring for me .

 

[Clutch]

 

[Solo4114]

There are three key problems with the episodes in the last two seasons:

1. The Flow of Time/Continuity

As we've seen, time moves at the speed of plot apparently. It takes weeks to trek north of the wall, but Gendry can apparently run back to it in a matter of hours, and then Dany appears with her dragons just a few seconds later and WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING? Cersei is pregnant, but isn't showing now that it's, what, like 5 months later? 6 months? Or she's just lying to everyone and nobody has any knowledge of pregnancy or something. I dunno. Travel seems to happen in an instant, too. It's just damn sloppy work. I could excuse some of it in earlier seasons, but we're now at a place where the sequencing of events and passage of time really matter. Except, apparently, to the showrunners...

This has a further impact on the story, though, aside from mere continuity problems.

2. Abrupt Events.

The show has gotten ridiculously lazy about how abruptly stuff happens and how it lays the groundwork for those occurrences (or rather, doesn't bother at all). For all the "table setting" they've done in episodes, they still can't figure out how to set up stuff and effectively pay it off in a way that doesn't come across as ham-fisted, out of left field, or otherwise completely unearned. The writers just seem as if they can't be bothered to do that kind of work, and it's simple laziness and bad writing. I'm sorry, but it is. This was probably best exemplified in this past episode by the scene with Bronn.

The scene itself isn't a terrible one, although even the scene is a little off. You'd figure that Tyrion would have some concerns about whether he can actually deliver for Bronn and what it might mean for him if he can't. But what's more problematic is the simple fact that Bronn literally just shows up at their room, with a loaded crossbow, out of nowhere. Literally out of nowhere. Two episodes ago we heard he was traveling north. Now he's just in their room. That is sloppy, sloppy writing. It's lazy, and it's sloppy.

Here's how the Bronn sequence should've played out. First, there should've at least been some shots of Bronn traveling, looking at the crossbow, and thinking to himself. This doesn't need to be a long, lingering shot. Just something to show that he's on his way. Maybe we just get a scene of him riding up to the gates of Winterfell in the midst of their revelry, and that's how he manages to sneak in. But you still bother to show him -- and that crossbow -- on his way. Why? Two reasons. First, it builds tension. We don't know what Bronn is going to do. Will he kill them? Will he let them go? Will he follow through on letting Tyrion make him a counter-offer? Will he get caught? Second, it establishes that he's even there, that he's moving around in proximity to them, so that when he finally does show up in their room, it isn't like he just bloody teleported in by magic. At least show him walking down the hallways.

But no, none of that is done. Bronn just...shows up, walks into their room, has a chat, and walks out. The end.

That's the show these days. That's how they handle emotional arcs, it's how they handle major plot points, it's how they handle travel. Things just...happen because now is the time they happen, and having happened, we're off to the next thing to happen. It's lazy, sloppy, bad writing.

3. Forced Failure/Drama.

This is probably my single greatest problem with the show as it stands. I saw it last season with Sansa and Arya's episode-and-a-half of distrusting each other and the show trying to make you think "ooooh, maybe Arya will kill Sansa!" Except, no, it's all just to trick the audience and Littlefinger for a big dramatic throat-slashin'. It's manufactured controversy that is just as quickly dispatched as it is introduced. Sansa's conflict with Dany is related to this. Like, when Tyrion said "You seem determined to dislike her," I thought to myself "EXACTLY. What the hell?" Like, why is there a conflict between them? And that brings me to my next point (which answers the question).

Characters behave in ways that suggest they have learned nothing from their experiences. Dany apparently learned nothing from ruling in Meereen, aside from the fact that she should get on her dragon and go burn stuff up and conquer. She's a terrible ruler. But she's previously been set up as if she could be a great one, only to now prove to be a wackadoo. Well what the hell?! There's conflict between Dany and Sansa, because Dany shows up and just says "I'm your queen. Bend the knee. I'll burn you if you don't. Also, this is my right/destiny, so just...bend the knee." She has zero capacity for making nice with people. And as soon as someone says "I dunno...why should I follow you?" she just gets pissy with them and starts ordering them around. And she's gonna be the one to break the wheel? She's the supposed breaker of chains? WTF?

Jon's another one like this. Apparently his time as Lord Commander taught him nothing of discretion. Instead, he's still the same dumb Stark he's always been, a chip off his uncle's block, doing the "right" thing even though it's also the deeply, deeply stupid thing. Like telling Sansa and Arya of his heritage. I get why he'd want to do that. But you would think that his experiences would have taught him "Maybe I should keep this under my hat." I'd rather have Sam be the one to reveal the info. He has more reason to, anyway, since he's pissed at Dany for burning up his dad and brother. But no, it's Jon, being Jon, doing the honorable-but-idiotic thing.

You also see this with Tyrion and Varys. These guys are supposed to be the brilliant strategists and schemers. Tyrion is supposed to be good at politics and ruling. So why the hell can't they seem to get anything right? Over and over and over again, Tyrion has had these failures, and they just feel forced. Like, they have to happen because the plot needs them to happen, not because they're natural outgrowths of his character or part of his character's growth. And for what? What's it building towards? What's the point of having him fail repeatedly? All it does is tell the audience "Oh, hey, this guy's an idiot." Meanwhile, the show has been working for years to suggest that he's a genius, that he's brilliant, and that the prejudice of the world around him is why his brilliance has never been rewarded or recognized and Dany is the first person in power to really do that. Except -- oops! Sorry. We need him to be an idiot now, sooo.....

Again, you can see examples of this even in the sequence where Rhaegal gets killed. NOBODY saw the huge fleet? Dany has eyes in the sky and yet can't apparently see an enormous fleet of ships waiting for hers? What is this BS?! This is just forced failure to create dramatic tension in about as subtle a manner as a Gallagher standup routine. The same way we have plot armor on characters, we also have plot pit-traps that mandate failure, just to move the characters from one place to the next, from one conflict to the next. Again, it's lazy, weak writing.


None of these individual moments or events would necessarily be a problem IF the show bothered to lay the groundwork for them. But it doesn't. It can't, really. Even with 80 minute episodes, with only 6-7 episodes per season, you simply need more time to unspool this stuff and build the foundation for it. Realistically, they probably needed another 20 1-hour episodes to tell the story of this season alone. Half of that spent on the fight against the Night's King, and another half spent on the "Last War." If they had that time, they could show Dany's gradual descent into paranoia and madness. They could build up Jon's internal conflict about embracing and revealing his own heritage, his struggle with his own identity. They could more effectively address why Tyrion continues to be a moron. And they wouldn't have to rely on cheap, forced failure to do things like rob Dany of Rhaegal. I mean, hell, he could've died in the LAST episode and it would've made perfect sense! Why keep him alive just to kill him in this episode? I'll tell you why. Because the show runners are entirely focused around cool moments, and can't be bothered to create the context around them that actually makes those moments cool. They have these ideas for nifty visuals like "And then Rhaegal gets a spear to the neck and coughs up a mass of blood!" but they have no idea how to work those moments into an actual story.

Right now, the show feels like a series of bullet points from an outline, rather than a proper narrative. That's cool and all when you're just tossing ideas around with your buddies. But it doesn't make for good actual storytelling.

 

[Laspector]

What happened to Winter and The Long Night? Still all sunny and warm everywhere except Winterfell. Was The Long Night literally just one long night?

 

[Strikerkc]

I always understood "the long night" to be a term for if the night King achieved total victory. Not about their bizarre Winters.

 

[Axlotl]

I thought the Long Night was when the white walkers came the first time, and rampaged Westeros for a winter that lasted a generation.

 

[Analyzer]

I thought the Long Night was when the white walkers came the first time, and rampaged Westeros for a winter that lasted a generation.

Yes, that's the time referred to as "The Long Night"

 

[Analyzer]

The scene itself isn't a terrible one, although even the scene is a little off. You'd figure that Tyrion would have some concerns about whether he can actually deliver for Bronn and what it might mean for him if he can't. But what's more problematic is the simple fact that Bronn literally just shows up at their room, with a loaded crossbow, out of nowhere. Literally out of nowhere. Two episodes ago we heard he was traveling north. Now he's just in their room. That is sloppy, sloppy writing. It's lazy, and it's sloppy.

....

That's the show these days. That's how they handle emotional arcs, it's how they handle major plot points, it's how they handle travel. Things just...happen because now is the time they happen, and having happened, we're off to the next thing to happen. It's lazy, sloppy, bad writing.

....

Right now, the show feels like a series of bullet points from an outline, rather than a proper narrative. That's cool and all when you're just tossing ideas around with your buddies. But it doesn't make for good actual storytelling.

I think this nails why the last 2 seasons, and possibly back as far as season season 6 have felt so off. Especially the season 7 and 8.

They still do many epic scenes as well as many great character drive scenes. However that thread tying them all together is all screwed up. Earlier in the series there was very careful setup and payoffs, but sadly it has devolved into epic moments without a unifying/coherent story.

I really have enjoyed much of it, but it could have been so much better than just checking off bullet points in an outline

i.e. for the most part I am fine with the main parts of how they story has unfolded, it's just how they are getting to each of those parts that makes them seem so out of left field or require giant leaps in logic that brings you out of those moments

 

[Solo4114]

I think this nails why the last 2 seasons, and possibly back as far as season season 6 have felt so off. Especially the season 7 and 8.

They still do many epic scenes as well as many great character drive scenes. However that thread tying them all together is all screwed up. Earlier in the series there was very careful setup and payoffs, but sadly it has devolved into epic moments without a unifying/coherent story.

I really have enjoyed much of it, but it could have been so much better than just checking off bullet points in an outline

i.e. for the most part I am fine with the main parts of how they story has unfolded, it's just how they are getting to each of those parts that makes them seem so out of left field or require giant leaps in logic that brings you out of those moments

Yeah, I mean, in many respects, the thigns that are happening are....fine. But the execution of how we get there (and often how they happen on screen) is just kinda dumb.

Last episode's Dothraki charge, for example, was just...dumb. Really, really dumb. It looked awesome, but within the context of the universe itself, it was stupid. Why would you sacrifice your cavalry in a frontal charge like that? I mean, there's a ton of dumb tactics in that battle, but that one was just incredibly dumb, and you could tell it was only included because of how cool it'd look to see this mass of lit swords charge into the darkness, and then wink out one by one.

Or the sequence with Rhaegal this episode. It looked cool and was surprising, but it was surprising because it's like "Where the hell did this random fleet come from?! How is it that nobody saw that already?"

I mean, I'd have been super surprised if the Mountain had speared Cersei up on the battlements at the end of the episode and then took of the helmet, pulled off its face, and oh hey! It's Arya! That'd be plenty surprising, but equally as "deus ex machina."

The character conflict likewise feels manufactured, as if they all insist on being idiots and incapable of seeing the larger picture. That stuff might work, but only if you put the time/effort in to lay the groundwork, and the show hasn't done that in a while.


All of this just makes me hope that as soon as the final episode has aired, Martin will announce release dates for the next book, and will follow the one after that within 2-3 years. I look forward to seeing how he wraps this all up, because I think even if he hits many of the same bullet points, he'll at least have laid the groundwork for the characters' behavior to make sense.

Jon's experience as Lord Commander and Dany's experience trying to rule Meereen should have taught them both what their true natures are, and how they need to modulate their instincts and/or rely on those around them for better advice. But no, Jon's still a one-note "Do what's right, no matter what" guy, and Dany still doesn't understand how to rule people and that her benevolence and the rightness of her claim alone won't win the day. It's like she thinks "What? I showed up. Isn't that enough?" and doesn't understand what to do if people don't just fall at her feet immediately and recognize how amazing she is.

And I think the single thing that most irritates me about all of this is that they have NOT effectively addressed the obvious solution: marriage between Dany and Jon. Doing that would bring the North in, would seal the breach between their respective claims, would nullify the issue of Jon's superior claim, and would allow them to rule as co-rulers.

But the show dodges this by saying "Oh, no, Dany is too much of a wacko to accept being co-ruler, and Jon is too much of a wimp to actually balance Dany out." Like, they're this way just because the show said they were, and that's the end of it. It's stupid and lazy.

 

[Grey]

Seeing all these people complain about the "tragedy of the final season" and i'm just over here enjoying it for what it is. I've read the books, and it's not like Martin will ever finish them. A mildly satisfying finale is better than no finale for me.

People are throwing this all on the showrunners when it's Martin you should be pointing the finger at, they signed up to adapt a story not author it. I think they're doing the best they can to bring this massive series to a close, when i'm not sure Martin himself knows how to at this point.

 

[AJTaliesen]

There are three key problems with the episodes in the last two seasons:


The scene itself isn't a terrible one, although even the scene is a little off. You'd figure that Tyrion would have some concerns about whether he can actually deliver for Bronn and what it might mean for him if he can't. But what's more problematic is the simple fact that Bronn literally just shows up at their room, with a loaded crossbow, out of nowhere. Literally out of nowhere. Two episodes ago we heard he was traveling north. Now he's just in their room. That is sloppy, sloppy writing. It's lazy, and it's sloppy.

Here's how the Bronn sequence should've played out. First, there should've at least been some shots of Bronn traveling, looking at the crossbow, and thinking to himself. This doesn't need to be a long, lingering shot. Just something to show that he's on his way. Maybe we just get a scene of him riding up to the gates of Winterfell in the midst of their revelry, and that's how he manages to sneak in. But you still bother to show him -- and that crossbow -- on his way. Why? Two reasons. First, it builds tension. We don't know what Bronn is going to do. Will he kill them? Will he let them go? Will he follow through on letting Tyrion make him a counter-offer? Will he get caught? Second, it establishes that he's even there, that he's moving around in proximity to them, so that when he finally does show up in their room, it isn't like he just bloody teleported in by magic. At least show him walking down the hallways.

Agree with all of that.

Also, I had a problem with the whole agreement. Up till now, Bronn has been a very practical person, but this "deal" is just stupid on every level.

I assume we will see Bronn a lot more going forward. We have to. The deal as it stands is ridiculous.

Knowing what we know about him, we can't possible expect him to show up after the war and say "Here I am, now give me High Garden!" There's no way he would be dumb enough to think that will ever work out.

Tyrion would say to Dany "Yes, he held a cross bow to my head and said he'd kill me if I didn't promise him High Garden so I did." and Dany would just say "You did the right thing Tyrion...Drogon, eat Ser Bronn of the Blackwater for Mommy."

Or...She might say "Well...A Lanister does always pay his debts, I name you Lord Bronn of High Garden...Drogon, Eat Lord Bronn of High Garden for Mommy."

Unless he actually does something for Daenarys, he can't possibly be dim enough to expect her to honor Tyrion's promise after the war. I'm confused why he didn't stick around to at least make sure Tyrion was laying the groundwork. I hope we end up seeing that he has a real plan and is playing a much deeper game.

 

[firesprite]

Seeing all these people complain about the "tragedy of the final season" and i'm just over here enjoying it for what it is. I've read the books, and it's not like Martin will ever finish them. A mildly satisfying finale is better than no finale for me.

People are throwing this all on the showrunners when it's Martin you should be pointing the finger at, they signed up to adapt a story not author it. I think they're doing the best they can to bring this massive series to a close, when i'm not sure Martin himself knows how to at this point.

I would agree, except for the fact that Martin TOLD them what he had planned for the books. Season 7 ended on 8/27/17 and season 8 premiered on 04/14. They had over a year and a half to stick this landing, and, at best, they've only landed about half to 1/3 of it.

This is a show that people have invested basically 10 years into watching and discussing. I honestly don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect competent writing.

 

[Analyzer]

Forgot to add how badly Ghost was just thrown away by Jon....got rid of a dragon and a direwolf in the same episode way to save on that budget over good storytelling.

Turns out the decision to not have Jon petting Ghost was because it was much "simpler" over having to CGI the whole thing

Here's Why Jon Snow Didn't Pet Ghost In His 'Game Of Thrones' Goodbye | HuffPost

Well, now that mystery has been solved thanks to director David Nutter.

“Since the direwolves are kind of CG creations, we felt it best to keep it as simple as possible,” said Nutter. “And I think that it played out much more powerfully that way.”

“Game of Thrones” visual effects supervisor Joe Bauer previously explained the difficulties of bringing the direwolves to life ahead of Season 8, saying real wolves need to be filmed and scaled up. And unfortunately, those wolves “only behave in certain ways.”

 

[Solo4114]

Seeing all these people complain about the "tragedy of the final season" and i'm just over here enjoying it for what it is. I've read the books, and it's not like Martin will ever finish them. A mildly satisfying finale is better than no finale for me.

People are throwing this all on the showrunners when it's Martin you should be pointing the finger at, they signed up to adapt a story not author it. I think they're doing the best they can to bring this massive series to a close, when i'm not sure Martin himself knows how to at this point.

I would agree, except for the fact that Martin TOLD them what he had planned for the books. Season 7 ended on 8/27/17 and season 8 premiered on 04/14. They had over a year and a half to stick this landing, and, at best, they've only landed about half to 1/3 of it.

This is a show that people have invested basically 10 years into watching and discussing. I honestly don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect competent writing.

Martin has a rough idea of the end he wants. The details on how to get there depend, however. The other thing to bear in mind is that a LOT of stuff from the books has been altered, storylines have been shifted to different characters, etc. As a result, there are likely large portions of the books which will be different. I mean, there already are.

The whole Dorne plotline, for example, plays out radically differently in the books. We have fAegon as well, who may have been merged with Jon for the show. Robert has several bastards still out there (Mya Stone, Gendry, Edric Storm) in the books, whereas on the show it's just the one.

I do prefer getting some ending to getting no ending. No argument there. But I also don't think it's unreasonable to criticize the show, given that even back in Season 5, it was still functioning better than what the show is doing now.

I know folks are pessimistic that Martin will finish the series, but I think he will. Book 6 is already mostly written. I mean, seriously, he's been working on it for 8 bloody years. He's gotta be pretty close by now, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn he's held back publishing the book to wait for the show to end.

The big bullet points for his outline will likely remain the same, but the execution will be -- I hope -- a lot better. I can't imagine how it wouldn't be, simply because he'll have more time and pages to play with in getting the reader there, plus he'll have internal monologues to work with.

Right now, the show feels like all it wants to do is hit those big bullet points and deliver thrilling moments, but the connective tissue to get you there just...is absent. It's still entertaining for what it is, but it could be -- it HAS been -- much better.

For example, in the last two huge battle sequences, I felt like the show really took a nosedive. Compare Battle of the Bastards and the battle against the Night's King against the defense of Castle Black. The Castle Black battle was WAY better. It was tense, it had a clear sense of geography, it was lit decently, too, for a night battle. It had stakes to it. And it felt like the tactics of the battle were actually pretty decent. The Battle of the Bastards was just a muddle. Most of it was tactically idiotic, and that was when you could make out what the hell was going on. Same story for the Battle of Winterfell against the army of the dead. Half of that battle I had no idea what was even happening, given the lighting and the camerawork. When I could make out what was happening, it was taking me out of things because of the hero shields and such. And then much of the battle just had no sense of geography. Where are the crypts in Winterfell? How do you get there? How do you get to the Godswood once you're inside the main walls? We have no idea, because they didn't bother to show any of it. You just saw people run into rooms, and then try to get to another door, but there's no sense of connection between the battlements and the library and the crypts and whathaveyou. It's just people running in corridors, and then showing up in rooms. That's it. Compare that to the set they built for Castle Black, and the sense you had the entire time of EXACTLY where everything was and where everything was happening. There's never a moment where you're wondering "Wait, how the hell did they get there? WHERE are they even?"

It's the same with the story as a whole. The show has been better than what it is now. I'm personally just holding the show to the standard it established for itself, and it's not measuring up.

 

[Strikerkc]

And here we go, the actual ending isn't matching the fan fiction folks have written out in their heads; and the show has slowed down the indiscriminate murder because they were going to lose the characters to "**** this, I'm out" after the battle, and folks are complaining about it, even though they complained about when characters died left and right.

The inevitable nerd butt hurt has arrived.

Was a fun thread while it lasted. LoL

 

[JoeG]

Right now, the show feels like all it wants to do is hit those big bullet points and deliver thrilling moments, but the connective tissue to get you there just...is absent. It's still entertaining for what it is, but it could be -- it HAS been -- much better.

This, right here! Its not that they (the showrunners) aren't doing what I thought they should do. I've never been one to second guess the storytellers. I've always been the person who is along for the ride, wherever that may take us. Its that they set the bar at a certain level, and now, when the end is in sight, it feels as if they're barely trying. Like they just want it to be done with, so they're throwing together a half assed attempt to just wrap it all up. They can do better. They've DONE better. Now, they've left us with something less than and it just feels really crappy.

 

[ghostryder]

 

[Thain]

This show is suffering from Snyder-syndrome. Threading some cool spectacle moments together with really ****** story and no earned build-up.

 

[Darth Fetty]

 

[Solo4114]

I mean, let's be honest here. Missandei and Grey Worm were doomed as a couple as soon as they started talking about "Whatcha gonna do after the war?"

If this were a cop show, they'd both be one week til retirement and saying "By this time next week, I'm gonna be off on a lake fishing!"