Game of Thrones

What was so integral about it? It led to the death of the Mountain and his reanimation, but they could have written into another character's story.

And the death of Cersei's daughter could have come from another character.

As it stands, they spent hours of screen time introducing and developing an entire kingdom to kill two characters.

Has Dorne directly impacted anything else?

The Dornish subplot plays a much more important role in the books, but in the show Oberyn's storyline not only helps to reveal more about Rhaegar Targaryen and who he was, but it also sets Tyrion on his journey to the whole endgame of this series. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon are really the major characters in all this. And since the show has been so reluctant in the past to do straight up flashbacks to explain important characters and events from the past, they've been relying on exposition from characters in the show's present. Thats what Oberyn's storyline helped to do. Plus, he is a fan favorite and was much cooler in the books. So, there was definitely a bit of fan service there as well.
 
The Dornish subplot plays a much more important role in the books, but in the show Oberyn's storyline not only helps to reveal more about Rhaegar Targaryen and who he was, but it also sets Tyrion on his journey to the whole endgame of this series.

Please refresh my memory. In the show, what does Oberyn's storyline reveal about Rhaegar? I honestly don't remember.

And it was Joffrey's death that set Tyrion on his path. If Dorne really has no other part in the story, I think the could have changed some "facts" and had Rhaegar have children with a woman from another established house. Then the Oberyn character could have just been another member of the family. It would have been tighter to develop a single character for the purpose of defending Tyrion than developing an entire kingdom.

And I totally agree. Dorne plays a much bigger part in the books, but why? Unless something drastic happens on the show involving them, I'm guessing they don't really factor into the endgame in the books, either.
 
Please refresh my memory. In the show, what does Oberyn's storyline reveal about Rhaegar? I honestly don't remember.

And it was Joffrey's death that set Tyrion on his path. If Dorne really has no other part in the story, I think the could have changed some "facts" and had Rhaegar have children with a woman from another established house. Then the Oberyn character could have just been another member of the family. It would have been tighter to develop a single character for the purpose of defending Tyrion than developing an entire kingdom.

And I totally agree. Dorne plays a much bigger part in the books, but why? Unless something drastic happens on the show involving them, I'm guessing they don't really factor into the endgame in the books, either.

In the show, the audience knows virtually nothing about Rhaegar except that Robert Baratheon hates him for kidnapping and raping Lyanna Stark and that, according to Barristan Selmy, he was a brave and honorable man. Thats pretty much all that was ever said about him until Oberyn comes to King's Landing. He's the first character who mentions that Rhaegar didn't kidnap\rape Lyanna. That he actually set aside his wife, Oberyn's sister, Elia Martell, to be with Lyanna. This was another instance of where the books merely infer something and the show comes right out and says it.

As far as changing the story (yet again) to eliminate Oberyn and the Dornish altogether, that really would've been a bad move by the showrunners for multipkle reasons. First, like I said, Oberyn and Dorne are fan favorites. The showrunners do like to throw the book fans an occasional bone, so it made sense to do it here. Also, Joffrey's wedding is the first major royal event in the kingdom since the show started. To have a great house such as the Martells absent from that, would seem weird. It would be another thing they'd have to come up with an explanation for when they can just include it, again because it appeases the fans and the Oberyn\Gregor fight is something cool to build up to. The Dornish have been referred to onscreen since the first episode of season one. Why else mention them at all if you're not going to ever show them?

Now, I'll give you that the whole Dornish have been handled miserably, but I doubt the showrunners set out to do that. So, of course they had to include them. They had a part to play, it was just mishandled. To ask the showrunners to come up with yet another hamfisted way of explaining their absence or making up some new house when they had all the material they already needed just seems like trying to bend over backwards to solve a problem they didn't have at the beginning.

As for why Dorne plays a bigger role in the books, its all there on the page. Prince Doran explains to his daughter that he and Oberyn have been involved in an attempt to destroy the Lannisters and restore the Targaryens to the throne since day 1. Though little by little Doran's plans are being dashed to pieces, there are still more books to tell the rest of that story and we'll see how much they truly factor into the endgame.
 
Thats pretty much all that was ever said about him until Oberyn comes to King's Landing. He's the first character who mentions that Rhaegar didn't kidnap\rape Lyanna. That he actually set aside his wife, Oberyn's sister, Elia Martell, to be with Lyanna. This was another instance of where the books merely infer something and the show comes right out and says it.

Ok. I'll buy this. It gave credibility to Jon being a Targaryen

Why else mention them at all if you're not going to ever show them?

That's my point. The Dornish as a whole could have been written out of the show entirely. No mention, no nothing.

As for why Dorne plays a bigger role in the books, its all there on the page. Prince Doran explains to his daughter that he and Oberyn have been involved in an attempt to destroy the Lannisters and restore the Targaryens to the throne since day 1. Though little by little Doran's plans are being dashed to pieces, there are still more books to tell the rest of that story and we'll see how much they truly factor into the endgame.

I feel like Martin had an idea for Dorne that he was toying with in the books, but realized it didn't make sense, and will just go no where.
 
Its easy at this point to say they could've written out Dorne from the show entirely because of how they screwed it up. Obviously they didnt intend to do that. I'm sure they figured that they'd be able to find something interesting to do with them. My theory is that after season 4, fatigue really began to set in for Dan and Dave, especially considering they had very little source material to rely on. HBO is pressuring them to draw out the show as much as possible, but more and more they were seeing that whenever they took too many liberties with the book established story, fans really came down hard on them and the quality wasnt always there. Then the Sand Snakes happened. The casting seemed fine, but the words coming out of their mouths, the storyline, and the performances were just really bad. This then turns into "lets just wrap this all up as fast as we can" and next thing you know, the Sand Snakes are kinslayers. Yeah, really screwed the pooch on that one. At that point its fair to say, what the hell was the point of all that. But from the beginning? Nope.
 
What was so integral about it? It led to the death of the Mountain and his reanimation, but they could have written into another character's story.

And the death of Cersei's daughter could have come from another character.

As it stands, they spent hours of screen time introducing and developing an entire kingdom to kill two characters.

Has Dorne directly impacted anything else?

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You can't just get rid of Dorne, then it'd only be the 6 Kingdoms, you'd lose the 7 Kingdom/7 Gods synergy. So you'd have to get rid of one of the new gods, (who; the maiden, the crone, the stranger? nobody likes him anyways) and then the Septons become the Sextons, and Cersei blows up the High Sparrow in the Great Sext of Baelor. Then you'd have to deal with the imagery of carving six pointed stars into the foreheads of the faith militant.

Too many head aches, lets just use a lame watered down version of the books' content.
:p
 
I think the issue with the Dornish is that they're important to the story of the books and to the overall story of the show. You can't have an entire realm of the Seven Kingdoms that's literally never mentioned, unless you just...cut all of Dorne away and never, ever have it included. But that wouldn't make a ton of sense, given the backstory for the whole thing.

The Dornish are important as big Targaeryan supporters, which is relevant to both the book and the show. Where the show dropped the ball, though, was in devoting enough time to actually make the Dornish stuff have that point. And part of that you can lay at Martin's feet, since he draaaaaaaaagged out the reveal of Doran's plot in the books. I think the showrunners should've spent more time developing Doran earlier in the show, kind of like what they did with Theon. If you recall, Theon's story as Reek began in, what, Season 3? Yet none of that appears until book 5. He just...disappears from the storyline after the failed attack on Winterfell for an entire book (book 4). I think you don't even know Theon is Reek in the earliest chapters of Book 5, for that matter. Yet the show kept all of that stuff running contemporaneously with the rest of the narrative.

The real problems with the novel series -- which made for major issues with the show -- arose from Martin's decision to split Books 4 and 5 into two books, and make them so incredibly long and (in many cases) kinda pointless. There's a lot of stuff that happens, but we're STILL waiting for the payoff in the books. Meanwhile, the show outpaced Martin's writing, and started revealing the "big picture" immutable plot points. It also provided a lot of shortcuts that the books can't, because the narrative is so convoluted in the books.

Don't get me wrong. I love the books and the rich background they provide, but really, Martin's pace just doesn't jive with TV writing.

My guess is that the Dornish will play more of a role in the books, if only because their motives will be examined more closely, you'll spend more time with POV characters than we did on the show (like...any time at all), and their involvement in the war will be more impactful, but not necessarily in ways that tie into the show's overall thrust. I think the show is really cutting the narrative down to the bone this season, to seriously focus it and wrap it all up.

There's probably a good bit more involved in the Highgarden/Maergery plot with the High Sparrow than what the books will show. Bear in mind that, in the books, Cersei has literally only just walked through King's Landing naked. The Sept of Baelor still stands. The High Sparrow and Faith Militant are still a threat. Maergery is imprisoned. Loras has been horribly burned while trying to mount a seige (at Dragonstone, I think?). So the notion of "Aaaaand then we just blowed everyone up real good" isn't necessarily what'll happen. It may, certainly, but it may not. It might just be the showrunners cutting the cast back dramatically because, to hit the notes they want to hit in the time they have to hit them...they have to cut this stuff away. That doesn't mean it isn't important, even essential, but it does mean it may not be important or essential to the show's storylines.


With that in mind, I think it's worth considering what the show is concerned with:

- Dany conquering Westeros and claiming the Iron Throne.
- Jon fighting the Army of the Dead (and maybe discovering his heritage?).
- The Lannisters botching the job of ruling and being defeated. Including subplots of Jaime's love for Cersei, and Cersei's inability to rule and cavalier attitude towards...everyone and everything.
- Tyrion's ultimate resolution and place in Westeros' future.


Aaaand that's about it. Everything else is a subplot that feeds into those major plots. And if it isn't...it gets cut. So, the Dornish? Cut. The Tyrells? Defeated. The Greyjoys? Defeated and imprisoned. Theon's story may yet develop further (some kind of redemption at freeing Yara?), but it's not a CENTRAL focus of the story.
 
One other thought:

Some are reading the scene between Dany and Jon when the dragons fly over as being not about sexual tension, and therefore probably not about them coming together. What I saw, instead, was actual respect and intrigue on both their parts, or at least on Dany's part, which could form the basis for a later attraction.

And yeah, it's creepy incest, but it's also the Targaeryan's and that's just how they roll.
 
Considering its aunt\nephew incest, thats almost tame for Targaryens. But yeah, this they hate each other now, so that means they're probably going to hook up stuff will probably end up getting on my nerves soon. If its going to happen I hope they hurry up and get there. They probably will though considering how things are going.
 
Well, Jon's always had the issue with not knowing who his mother was so he's afraid he might be sleeping with a relative (not realizing he's a Targaeryan which makes it preferred). Not to mention it seems like he has the code of the black tucked deep down inside still. He's a man on mission, he doesn't have time for romance.

That being said, he's the rare man that doesn't want to conquer Dany sexually so that make him a bit of a curiosity to Dany, add onto that Davos's unexplained slip about the knife to the heart and he's a total man of mystery.

Considering its aunt\nephew incest, thats almost tame for Targaryens. ...

Well she has three dragons so I was hoping for double incest, aunt/nephew+brother/sister but there is no Griff/Young Griff so no chance for that. btw, can you Worg a dragon?
 
One other thought:

Some are reading the scene between Dany and Jon when the dragons fly over as being not about sexual tension, and therefore probably not about them coming together. What I saw, instead, was actual respect and intrigue on both their parts, or at least on Dany's part, which could form the basis for a later attraction.

And yeah, it's creepy incest, but it's also the Targaeryan's and that's just how they roll.


I didn't see any implied sexual intent or spark between Dany and Jon in these initial meetings at all. What I DID see, is a possibility of a growing alliance and freindship between the two. When they look at each other, sizing each other up, it wasn't sexual...it was a feeling of trying to understand each other, of motives and trustworthyness and a slowly growing alliance which may reveal their familial connections. Jon is not the lustfull type. He will always only love Ygrette.
 
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Well she has three dragons so I was hoping for double incest, aunt/nephew+brother/sister but there is no Griff/Young Griff so no chance for that. btw, can you Worg a dragon?

Young Griff is also her nephew, so it would still be the same level. Thats assuming he even truly is a Targaryen, which he probably isn't. As for warging a dragon, I guess we'll see. In the books all the Stark children can warg into their wolves. In the show only Bran really does. He ccould also warg into Hodor(rip), so who knows. I've heard rumors we're going to see Bran warg into a raven this season just like the previous Three Eyed Raven did. Maybe he'll eventually warg into one of Dany's dragons as well.

Speaking of Dany's dragons, how likely is it she'll end up losing one? I think they're setting that up.
 
One other thought:

Some are reading the scene between Dany and Jon when the dragons fly over as being not about sexual tension, and therefore probably not about them coming together. What I saw, instead, was actual respect and intrigue on both their parts, or at least on Dany's part, which could form the basis for a later attraction.

And yeah, it's creepy incest, but it's also the Targaeryan's and that's just how they roll.
I saw it as the beginning of trust, and that could lead to dancing. :p

Also, Ser Jorah -- Tyrion's a great hand, but he's no general. He's been outmaneuvered twice now. Jorah, I think, will fill that gap when he gets to Dragonstone, and that's when they'll start winning the war.

Random thought -- Jon better make thousands of arrowheads from that dragon glass. Then maybe we can have an undead Agincourt in the North?
 
I saw it as the beginning of trust, and that could lead to dancing. :p

Also, Ser Jorah -- Tyrion's a great hand, but he's no general. He's been outmaneuvered twice now. Jorah, I think, will fill that gap when he gets to Dragonstone, and that's when they'll start winning the war.

Random thought -- Jon better make thousands of arrowheads from that dragon glass. Then maybe we can have an undead Agincourt in the North?

Unlikely, if only because the dead don't tire under the weight of their armor, so the terrain advantages present at Agincourt that led to the French men-at-arms exhausting themselves before reaching the English vanguard won't be possible.

But yes, shoot them with arrows and keep your distance!
 
Also, Ser Jorah -- Tyrion's a great hand, but he's no general. He's been outmaneuvered twice now. Jorah, I think, will fill that gap when he gets to Dragonstone, and that's when they'll start winning the war.

Ah. I like this. Makes sense. We've spent a lot of time with Jorah and grayscale. There has to be a reason why he was cured.
 
Young Griff is also her nephew, so it would still be the same level. Thats assuming he even truly is a Targaryen, which he probably isn't. As for warging a dragon, I guess we'll see. In the books all the Stark children can warg into their wolves. In the show only Bran really does. He ccould also warg into Hodor(rip), so who knows. I've heard rumors we're going to see Bran warg into a raven this season just like the previous Three Eyed Raven did. Maybe he'll eventually warg into one of Dany's dragons as well.

Speaking of Dany's dragons, how likely is it she'll end up losing one? I think they're setting that up.

Yeah I realized I screwed that up:facepalm

Didn't Jon warg into Ghost in the show? The first few seasons were close enough to the books that I can't keep those smaller things straight.
 
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