Female representation in hollywood
- Thread starter astroboy
- Start date
60 years ago this discussion might have been insightful.
Female characters in film aren't exactly 50-50 with male protagonists yet but there's already a powerful and politically correct lobby of feminist writers (e.g. Joss Whedon), directors (e.g. Kathryn Bigelow) and actors (e.g. Angelina Jolie) that push to advance the cause. It's no longer the days where Hollywood was all the "boys club." The club is still around but there is a popular vocal opposition that's always growing.
Restating an issue that's being addressed is neither insightful nor helpful.
At least the lobby is proposing solutions. Stewing over the problem only feeds a victim mentality. We're well past recognizing that mentality is a trap.
Female characters in film aren't exactly 50-50 with male protagonists yet but there's already a powerful and politically correct lobby of feminist writers (e.g. Joss Whedon), directors (e.g. Kathryn Bigelow) and actors (e.g. Angelina Jolie) that push to advance the cause. It's no longer the days where Hollywood was all the "boys club." The club is still around but there is a popular vocal opposition that's always growing.
Restating an issue that's being addressed is neither insightful nor helpful.
At least the lobby is proposing solutions. Stewing over the problem only feeds a victim mentality. We're well past recognizing that mentality is a trap.
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Calling Bechdel test a test is specious at best. And your own argument is contradictory. You acknowledge that previous films from decades past were aimed at young men and boys in the actio genre and now we have those films featuring strong female characters but there's only one. So somehow if there are two and they pass the Bechdel Test is the benchmark? What if the character is the lead, is amazingly realized, but she doesn't talk to another woman in the film? Is this a failure?
Axlotl
Master Member
Angel of Verdun, "Edge of Tomorrow".
I think I'm in love...
My poor wife and kid... now I have to break it to them that while it's been fun, I have to track down this lovely lady and start my new life.
Great example.
Solo4114
Master Member
No, I don't, but I saw a bunch of news pop up about her yesterday, including Kevin Smith suggesting that she be cast as the Carol Danvers iteration of Captain Marvel. She seems to look the part. What's unclear is whether she can act at all. And to be honest, if she can't act, I don't want her in the film, no matter how close to the real deal she happens to look.
Aside from that, I think it's important to note the difference between representation on the one hand, and tokenism and pandering on the other. I'm all for more representation. Having women be fleshed out, positive, realistic characters, who exist for reasons independent of catering to heterosexual male sensibilities, and who show their worth by being more than just eye candy or a male fantasy. But I don't want to see roles cast as women just so we can say "Look! A female lead!"
The problem with focusing on raw numbers as far as how many speaking roles there are, etc., is that such a focus often misses that merely increasing quantity does not increase quality. Hollywood could undergo some internal shift where it starts casting a ton more roles for women...but still writes them as if they were dreamed up by a 13-year-old boy or an executive for the publishing company that owns Cosmo. I'd classify that as a "lateral move" rather than actual progress.
And to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see fewer overall roles for women, if it would guarantee that whenever you do see a woman on the screen, she's a fully realized character and the role is a quality one. But then, I'd rather the same applied to men, too.
Mostly, I'd just like to see better writing and movies that don't appear to view their audience as low-grade morons.
OldKen
Master Member
It's kind of her just being herself... But REALLY funny...
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSiMDOhtz80
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSiMDOhtz80
Thing is, if they cast Ronda Rousey in the role, I will be excited. The reason why is because Marvel is not known for stunt casting a role. If they cast someone, it's because they auditioned and were found to be the best choice for the role. This would mean that she "gets" the character and will do the job correctly.
Personally, though, I'm pulling for Yvonne Strahovski.
Personally, though, I'm pulling for Yvonne Strahovski.
For the last time,
NO ONE OWES ME ANYTHING AND I'M NOT DOING THIS FOR ANY KIND OF PRAISE.
I'm doing this because this is my criticism of the system. A system that, while certainly has shown signs of improvement, could still do a lot better.
So basically you're impatient and the rest of us suffer from your lack of impulse control. You have jumped in and derailed with negativity so many threads and wonder why people are sick of you. The positive aspects of your message become totally lost in your attempts argue this constantly. It's not advancing the cause you are fighting for, it's harming it.
The Bechdel Test (as applied to film) has been in the popular media for several years now. It's nothing new.
The OP should understand that many of us are already familiar with the Bechdel Test long enough to recognize that the significance taken out of context amounts to little more than a novelty. Everybody understands that today.
That's why so many of us are jumping into the discussion because an argument founded on this is inherently specious.
The OP should understand that many of us are already familiar with the Bechdel Test long enough to recognize that the significance taken out of context amounts to little more than a novelty. Everybody understands that today.
That's why so many of us are jumping into the discussion because an argument founded on this is inherently specious.
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Riceball
Master Member
That's the one thing I don't like about SyFy's Dark Matter, of course the one Asian character on the show is some sort of martial arts expert and we have to be beaten over the head nearly episode with reminders that he knows martial arts. It also doesn't help that he's easily the most boring character on the show and despite being Asia n myself with a strong liking of Asians on TV and in movies I'd have no problems with the producers getting rid of him.
Solo4114
Master Member
And this pretty much embodies my issue with representation in terms of quantity vs. quality. If Hollywood suddenly adds 10,000 more Asian roles next year, are we any better off if all of them are "wise martial arts master" or "silent ninja killer" or "dorky computer geek" (which seem to be the three more popular tropes that I've come across)? I'd say no.
I'd rather see some roles where it's an Asian actor in an otherwise "neutral" but well-realized, complex character (e.g. Glenn on the Walking Dead, where his being Asian has literally zero bearing on the story aside from the interactions with the racist dudes), and some roles where a character's Asian background comes into play, but isn't played as a stereotype.
And really, that goes for all underrepresented folks in Hollywood.
Jeyl, I've got to ask these questions and its important that you respound to them honestly.
How do you think you would have made the actresses portraying these characters in TFA and Rogue one actually feel if they read you're posts? Before you've really had any opportunity to even see what they can bring to their characters on screen? Do you think they would have felt you were positively supporting them or any women in general appearing in a Star Wars film as you claim to be or were actually attacking them ? Just think about what you've said in the thread and how it appears to the rest of us.
For many people, not just the ladies, being in this film has been the opportunity of a lifetime and a moment of personal fulfilment for some. For a few it is the breakout role of their dreams. Suddenly ,out of nowhere they are chosen to be a lead in one of the most popular film series of all time. That's like winning the lottery. Few ever believed we'd see a Star Wars movie ever again.
And yet you went and poured such baseless vitriol on what the entire team are trying so hard to achieve , based simply on your perception of a single artists positioning choice of a character in a poster, WITHOUT REALLY A SHRED of evidence to support your observations. Theres actually bucket loads (researched by many) to the contary about just how major Reys role is in all this and actually you came across in this instance more like an anti feminist than the rest of the forum put together.
You also absolutely and completely fail to take into account just how much influence and skill the individual actors will bring to the portrail of their characters on screen, the effort that's been put into the story to get it right and all the behind the scenes work that's going on to try and deliver a stunning SW movie. And thats a tremendous slight and hugely dismissive. Don't you see what you've said and how you've said it will upset people? Or are you emotionally blind?
In all the press shows and interviews everybody seems to be utterly thrilled to be in a Star Wars movie just as much of the rest of us will be able to watch it in a few months. And their excitment and happiness to be part of this new trilogy ,particularly Daisy Ridley, who has signed for the entire series ,seems authentically thrilled , heart warming delighted and so completely over the moon ,if not the DeathStar, to be part of this brand new and exciting time in the Star Wars universe they are almost bursting at being unable to tell you.
Think about that. And what you have said in the thread. And then think about what those actresses would say to you if they read what you posted.
How do you think you would have made the actresses portraying these characters in TFA and Rogue one actually feel if they read you're posts? Before you've really had any opportunity to even see what they can bring to their characters on screen? Do you think they would have felt you were positively supporting them or any women in general appearing in a Star Wars film as you claim to be or were actually attacking them ? Just think about what you've said in the thread and how it appears to the rest of us.
For many people, not just the ladies, being in this film has been the opportunity of a lifetime and a moment of personal fulfilment for some. For a few it is the breakout role of their dreams. Suddenly ,out of nowhere they are chosen to be a lead in one of the most popular film series of all time. That's like winning the lottery. Few ever believed we'd see a Star Wars movie ever again.
And yet you went and poured such baseless vitriol on what the entire team are trying so hard to achieve , based simply on your perception of a single artists positioning choice of a character in a poster, WITHOUT REALLY A SHRED of evidence to support your observations. Theres actually bucket loads (researched by many) to the contary about just how major Reys role is in all this and actually you came across in this instance more like an anti feminist than the rest of the forum put together.
You also absolutely and completely fail to take into account just how much influence and skill the individual actors will bring to the portrail of their characters on screen, the effort that's been put into the story to get it right and all the behind the scenes work that's going on to try and deliver a stunning SW movie. And thats a tremendous slight and hugely dismissive. Don't you see what you've said and how you've said it will upset people? Or are you emotionally blind?
In all the press shows and interviews everybody seems to be utterly thrilled to be in a Star Wars movie just as much of the rest of us will be able to watch it in a few months. And their excitment and happiness to be part of this new trilogy ,particularly Daisy Ridley, who has signed for the entire series ,seems authentically thrilled , heart warming delighted and so completely over the moon ,if not the DeathStar, to be part of this brand new and exciting time in the Star Wars universe they are almost bursting at being unable to tell you.
Think about that. And what you have said in the thread. And then think about what those actresses would say to you if they read what you posted.
jlee562
Sr Member
I'm going to preference this by saying that I'm not the 'right' advocate for "feminism." Aside from being a cis-gender male, my own personal viewpoints have been influenced more by ***** theory than feminist theory. Although I have studied feminist theory in an academic context (both in film and as a social science), I am by no means an "expert" on what "feminism" in a modern context entails. I would also further put the disclaimer out there, that there's lots of debate within feminist circles about representation in Hollywood and what really constitutes real and equal representation.
That having been said.
What I mean when I say that lists of female characters is a canard, is that pointing out that female characters appear, even in heroic or notable roles, doesn't simply solve sexism in Hollywood. "Equality" is not about reaching a quantitative parity between men and women in film.
Whether or not one accepts the Bechdel test as legitimate, it is one lens through which to examine the roles of women in film, which shows a pretty amazing disparity. Do all the films you list pass the Bechdel test?
In one of the Ghostbusters threads, I brought up the fact that there were feminist criticisms of Bridesmaids. Some of those criticisms revolved around issues that haven't even been considered in any discussion here: such as the perpetuation of heteronormative gender roles.
It's not just a question of whether women are seen or heard in film. It's a qualitative question of HOW those women are presented; whether or not the film perpetuates a patriarchal hierarchy; the question of sexual politics.
Those are the kinds of issues which are more pertinent to the discussion.
I have no clue. I do not know any of them in real life so there is no way of knowing how they would react if they read this forum. If they did read it and had contacted me in person regarding what they thought, than I'll know. Would I recommend they read it? No. I think their time is better spent trying to win over as much of an audience as they can for their upcoming movie than reading an internet forum.
Actually, I find his knowledge of martial arts to be very much in character for him specifically. Remember that Four's history is that he was the heir to an empire. In many governments with an imperial or monarch as ruler throughout history, the nobility is expected to know how to fight. Nobility, especially the upper echelons, were expected to be able to effectively wage war if needed. This still holds true today around the world, even if we in the U.S. pay it little more than lip service with the President also being the Commander-in-Chief.
Now, if Four had been some random guy of Asian descent that was a master martial artist, then I could get behind your point, However, Four had been trained as a warrior by the best warrior in his father's service in expectation of rising to the throne of Emperor (before Step-Mommy-Not-So-Dearest intervened) and had participated in military campaigns before his frame-up. Given this, I don't see him knowing martial arts as any kind of stereotype. He knows martial arts because he was heavily trained in it, and that training was part and parcel to his backstory as a character.
Kerr Avon
Master Member
Maybe. But they can't be THE Ghostbusters. THE Ghostbusters are the originals. They could have had a Ghostbuster that was female. But by getting a guy who didn't want to do the movie and just wanted to make a chick flick, forcing him to do a bad reboot ignoring history and ****ting on what everyone loved, just poisoned the well. You insult the fans, you **** off the fans. You don't get equality by pissing off the people you are trying to bring into the fold. You shove something down someone's throat, they're going to vomit it back up at you.
I've been a Ghostbuster's fan ever since I was in my single digits and I don't need you to speak for me. This Ghostbuters fan is looking forward to the new movie and I hope it winds up being both fun and exciting.
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