Female representation in hollywood

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by astroboy, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I understand that folks are annoyed at the muck-up regarding this conversation in the Star Wars Ep. 7 thread. Fair enough. That's a great thread and I wouldn't want to spoil it.

    So I thought I'd start a new thread that anyone can say their point, if they want. Or this thread can sink like a stone.

    I will say my point here and then let the thread be.


    many people are saying there have been so many great female characters that we don't need to bother talking about this any more. Yes there have been Xena, Leia, trinity, Katniss, The Bride, Lara Croft, Hit Girl, etc........Lot's of strong women who kick *.

    But that isn't my point. My point is that we need well written female characters and fair representation of gender.

    Often those women are the only female member of the cast (I'm not talking about Stand by me or das boot. I'm talking about movies that take place in regular society). It's such a noticed problem that right now, only about 30% of the speaking roles in hollywood are for women. And the sony hacks proved that the women who DO get roles, get paid a fraction of their male co-stars.

    For those not familiar with the Bechdel test, this is a short video that got me thinking a lot about the movies I watch in hollywood:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
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  2. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Here's a question I'd like to ask you. What are some examples where the writers try to create strong capable female characters but completely drop the ball? Like there is clear intent on not making them your typical damsels or romantic interest, but it somehow ends up not doing anything?

    I think one of the most prominent example of lazy attempts of making women strong is the straight up approach of having them completely upstage a male subordinate for no other reason than to appear 100% in charge. Because the only way we can show our women can do what men do is by dominating them either physically or vocally. Let me give you some examples.

    Agent Carter from Captain America: Winter Soldier. Her very first introduction in the Marvel Cinematic Universe executes this cliché in spades. We're introduced to her while she's addressing a group of soldiers. One of the soldiers doesn't take her seriously, so her response to show how tough she is is to beat him up in front of everyone. Now I'm thankful that Peggy Carter wound up being a much more interesting, fun and well thought out character as the MCU progressed, but this kind of introduction has the danger of making your tough female character unlikable. Like...

    Lois Lane from Man of Steel: Despite the military guy not wanting to shake her hand and stating that they weren't expecting her till the next day, she decides to tell him what he already knows about his failed injunction and ends the conversation with a dick measuring comment. Now Lois Lane was nothing if not a "take no ****** from anyone" especially in the Donner films, but she also had a sense of enthusiasm that made her a lot of fun. But having Lois come off tough by having be mean spirited did not make her a likable character.

    Captain Janeway and Torres from Star Trek Voyager: I could settle with the image of Janeway's introduction featuring her literally standing over Tom Paris with her hands on her side, but it's the very next episode Parallax that did the deed. We have an actual Starfleet Engineer who is butting heads with Torres, a Maquis engineer who hates Starfleet. Since their original chief engineer is dead, Voyager needs a replacement. Rather than having it be an easy decision, the show makes it convoluted and idiotic in disguise of "These women are smarter than you!". So the episode treats the male engineer like a whiny idiot after having his nose broken by Torres and being handed the idiot ball by asking whether maintaining the holographic doctor should be a priority.... You know, the only qualified medical 'thing' onboard the ship when during the episode the crew are experiencing mysterious health issues? Now when it comes to widening a space crack to get Voyager out of bad space, they need a shuttle in order to widen it since Paris said that bringing Voyager closer would cause it to collapse. So when Paris makes the suggestion that he should fly the shuttle since he's the best pilot, Janeway shoots him down by stating that he knows nothing of temporal mechanics... even though Paris just stopped Janeway from taking action that would have collapsed the crack seconds ago.

    Now some might say this about Ellen Ripley in ALIENS when she interacts with the Colonial Marines. Unlike the characters previously mentioned, we know that Ripley is a survivor who has dealt with a threat that the marines know nothing about but will soon have to face. While she questions some command decisions early on, she doesn't become insistent until lives are at stake. When she's telling Hudson to shape up when he's on the verge on panicking, it's not a show of dominance, but of practical sense. She's already been through this kind of thing so it makes sense that she's the one who can take charge of this situation through familiarity and experience. And it's clear that she's not in this alone when Hicks, who's the highest ranking officer is still giving orders.
     
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  3. binkleywalker

    binkleywalker Sr Member

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    The Force Awakens looks like it's going to be great!
     
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  4. jlee562

    jlee562 Sr Member

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    The biggest canard in the other thread were the lists of female characters.....

    Like, really?
     
  5. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Good idea, nice cast, and despite the 'sandwiching' promo poster, it could work. The only thing I see that can royally screw this up is JJ Abrams. Leaving aside the TV Medium, his movies leave a ton to be desired when it comes to female representation. Of the three Mission Impossible films he's been involved with, none of the female IMF agents are brought back in the following films, with Rogue Nation having only one female IMF agent for about a solid minute before being fridged. And for Star Trek with the slight exception for Uhura.

    Star Wars has a long way to go if it wants to up the ante on how it represents it's female demographic. I know this sounds like I'm giving absolutely zero hope to Disney's take on the franchise, but even if The Force Awakens is incredibly awesome with the character of Rei, the later films might completely ruin her. The final part of the trilogy is being directed by Colin Trevorrow, and if he had directed The Empire Strike's Back, this exchange would definitely have made it into the final cut.

    Han: You've been so busy being a Princess, you haven't learned how to be a woman. I could have helped ya. But it's too late. Your big opportunity is flying out of here sweetheart.​

    Imagine a whole character arc revolving around that premise. That's Claire's entire character in a nutshell. Even when she gets a "Moment of awesome!" her nephews still prefer Chris Pratt.
     
  6. dascoyne

    dascoyne Master Member

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    Now that we're at least on track with female characters let's get on the ball with Asian (Chinese, East Indian etc.) characters.
     
  7. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Despite the fact that a female poster on that thread said your "sandwiching" complaint was completely without merit! Didn't think much of your other thoughts on the subject either.
     
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  8. jlee562

    jlee562 Sr Member

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    While I can't say I agree with Jeyl's interpretation of the poster (especially considering that the movie hasn't been released), I also can't agree with the idea (in a general sense) that an argument related to sexism or female representation is without merit because "a female poster" didn't agree.
     
  9. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    She didn't agree with it because it doesn't exists. Often we forget, opinions can and often are, wrong.
     
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  10. NeoRutty

    NeoRutty Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So now we are getting mad at a guy and "what if"-ing he directed a movie from over 30 years ago?

    Can't you enjoy a movie?

    JJ's track record? Have you WATCHED 3 years of Felicity where he wrote the brunt of the episodes himself? A show with a female lead... with great supporting female characters... and gay characters...

    Alias...

    MI-3 Cruise is brought back to life by his wife... NOT a tough girl... handles herself in a scary as crap situation....

    His track record?!?!

    gawds.
     
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  11. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    I think the only big miss for JJ recently in regards to a female character was Dr. Marcus in ST Into Darkness and he and the writers owned up to it. They blew it, knew it, owned it. But I and I know MANY female fans who really appreciate the new Uhura. I think Zoe did a great job with the character and very much enjoyed her in the film.
     
  12. jlee562

    jlee562 Sr Member

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    Right, and I said that I don't agree with Jeyl's interpretation. My point is that you're trying to dismiss Jeyl by pointing out that "a" (as in singular) female didn't agree with him.

    This can't be where the bar is set for the discussion. The fact that one woman disagreed with Jeyl and commented as such, means that two people have a different opinion, no more, no less.
     
  13. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    He's talking about Jurassic World and Colin Treverrow ad already anticipating that Episode 9 will be a @$t show. That's the mentality we are dealing with and the obfuscating he will engage in to try and make a point. It's a shame as their is validity to the conversation but complexly lost by his presentation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    But this is his track record. He throws accusation first and never apologies when proven wrong later. His interpretation is wrong, there is no such intent in the image. It's a fantasy in his head made manifest as a criticism.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
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  14. NeoRutty

    NeoRutty Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Oh I know... just funny to see him getting worked up about what he MAY have done had he directed a previous movie.

    As for Jurrasic World, Whedon was pretty annoyed with the depiction of female characters in that movie, but then feminists went after Whedon for Black Widow in Age of Ultron...

    Then there are the misogynists who went after Mad Max Fury Road for hating men...

    It never even occured to me watching Fury Road that I was watching a woman empowerment flick... it was just a * good flick.

    All this ripping on this movie for not enough strong female roles, or Ghostbusters for pandering to strong female roles....

    I just want to be entertained!
     
  15. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Mad Max was a tour de force of strong female characters and I loved it!
     
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  16. Mr Mold Maker

    Mr Mold Maker Sr Member

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    Roll call,

    Any females present in this thread at all?
     
  17. dascoyne

    dascoyne Master Member

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    Mad Max Fury Road doesn't count because it doesn't support the thesis of this thread.
     
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  18. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Mad max was awesome with great female characters. It was a perfect movie for so many reasons.


    But....there was definitely an outcry because of the female characters.
     
  19. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Fury road totally counts because it schooled us on how it should be done.


    Make a movie with men an women. We just need to start with that
     
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  20. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    And one of the ways they owned up to it? By dropping her from the next film. All the things that the audience, fans and even the filmmakers said were problematic to her character are now going to be the only things she'll be remembered for. It'd be like if the new Clone Wars series saw how people thought Ahsoka was an annoying, unlikable sidekick to Anakin and responded by completely removing her from the series. Aren't we glad Ahsoka stuck around to became one of the most refreshing and endearing characters that Star Wars has had in a long time?
     
  21. dascoyne

    dascoyne Master Member

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    uhh ...


    ... I was, like, not being serious.
     
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  22. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I know. I just felt like fury road need even more praise.
    Seriously. That was a friggin' film!
     
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  23. The Mad Professor

    The Mad Professor Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    On the topic of Claire from Jurassic World, let's not forget one thing... Claire is a corporate busybody, not an outdoorswoman. This is plainly evident in her pale complexion, white clothing and high heels in a tropical environment. She was strong, yes, but in a different way than Owen. Her strength lies in the boardroom and in management. This is why she is in charge of a multimillion (or even multibillion) dollar theme park owned by one of the richest companies in the world. They wanted a corporate shark in charge of the place, someone who can do all the things that are necessary to ensure success, including wrangling everything from the day to day things that keeps JW open and running, to the scientists working on new attractions, to the government/military interests in the technology. This is her wheelhouse. Owen, as much of a man's man that he is, would probably fold under that kind of pressure.

    The fact that the boys gravitated to Owen is largely because very few kids can readily identify with someone like her. Her very job depends on her being an Ice Queen, and it's somewhat isolated her from her family and even crept into her dating life (hence the disastrous first date with Owen). Owen, on the other hand, is a role model for kids of their age. He's charismatic, smart, resourceful, and a survivor, capable of handling himself well in overtly dangerous situations (plus someone who trains freaking VELOCIRAPTORS automatically gets, like, a BILLION cool points).

    Given the disparity of outdoorsy knowledge between Owen and Claire and factoring in the situation with the Indominous loose, it's perfectly reasonable that you would gravitate towards the person most capable of helping you survive. The boys gravitating to him and not Claire is not indicative of sexism. It's because kids of that age instinctively seek protection from a father figure and nurturing from a mother figure (this is why Lex and Tim gravitated to Alan Grant for protection in the first movie when the crap hit the fan... it wasn't just because he was the one they were stuck with). Even when Claire took a level in badass by bringing in Rexy, she's still the same distant aunt that they know.

    Personally, if they had made her a competent outdoorswoman as well as corporate shark or had written the kids suddenly flocking to her side in that terribly cliched way that Hollywood sometimes does, it would have strained the limits of credulity.

    Yes, you read that right. I would have found THAT more incredulous than dinosaurs and dino-hybrids duking it out in modern times on the big screen.
     
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  24. Mr Mold Maker

    Mr Mold Maker Sr Member

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    The only line from an Asian I can remember in Star Wars is "I'm hit!" *explosion*.

    Seriously. You want to talk about misrepresenting someone?

    How come every one of my Asian brothers and sisters are exclusively ninjas, or "derivery drivers" for Asian food places. :lol

    (PS Hollywood, we Asians don't all know martial arts.)
     
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  25. The Mad Professor

    The Mad Professor Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Look, I'm from Texas. We get the same treatment. All the popular images of a Texan include the cowboy motif or parts thereof.

    I'm thirty-eight years old, going on thirty-nine. Not once in my entire life have I owned a cowboy hat, a pickup truck, cowboy boots, or a belt buckle that doubles as a dinner plate.
     
  26. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    But you have Glenn!

    Isn't that enough?
     
  27. Mr Mold Maker

    Mr Mold Maker Sr Member

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    That's racist dude.

    I know we all look the same to your people, but Glenn doesn't play every Asian in every film you've ever seen.


    (I am absolutely kidding if that isn't apparent.)
     
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  28. jlee562

    jlee562 Sr Member

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    I know we're veering to the opposite of women; but on the subject of Glen, I've got to give a tip of the hat to The Walking Dead. I loved the little thing they did with Daryl and Glen, when the first time they meet, Daryl says something about "the Chinese kid," and Glen says "I'm Korean." Later on, Merle says something about "the Chinese kid," and Daryl corrects him and says "he's Korean."

    I loved that little moment.

    On Asian women, I've actually really enjoyed Ming Na Wen on Agents of SHIELD. The character is still a bit two dimensional, but it's nice to see an Asian woman not put into the demure role.
     
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  29. dascoyne

    dascoyne Master Member

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    Have you seen Joss Whedon's musical, Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog? The commentary track is also a musical and one of the writers/lyricists named Maurissa Tancharoen who is Thai has a funny (and beautifully sung) song about casting only white people for the show:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
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  30. CutThumb

    CutThumb Sr Member

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    What was false or misleading about the list I put up? It was purely a factual response to Jeyls oft trumpeted point that sci fi and fantasy neglected or deliberately side lined strong female roles. When I thought about it and actually started looking at it I found it wasn't actually supported by the evidence. There were literally dozens of roles where the lead character was an actress. Infact whole TV series were based entirely on the stories surrounding them ,and, were in their time, enjoyed by millions. Even the series that didn't have a direct female lead had characters that were hugely memorable and became cultural icons.
    The first female character I actually really liked was Dianna Rigg as Emma Peel in "The Avengers" and I wondered why? I quote:" She is a heroine; she is rarely bested in any fight and is capable of rescuing Steed if he is in trouble. She is a master of "Martial arts" and a formidable fencer. A certified genius, she specializes in chemistry and other sciences. She is often seen in episodes engaging in artistic hobbies and had success in industry at the helm of the company of her late father, Sir John Knight. Her husband, Peter Peel, was a pilot whose plane disappeared over the Amazonian forest. He was presumed dead for many years, and Peel went on to work with Steed. She drove a convertible Lotus at high speeds, and convincingly portrayed any series of undercover roles, from nurse to nanny. Her favourite guise was that of a women's magazine reporter, trying to interview big business tycoons and rich playboys. The name "Emma Peel" is a play on the phrase "Man Appeal" or "M. Appeal", which the production team stated was one of the required elements of the character ". So I guess I liked her because she liked a lot of things I did, and that's why to a certain degree , strong female roles like hers appeal to guys, because we can admire and relate to them more easily.
    I have never met any woman who could claim to be anything like Emma Peel in reality and in my younger days I had a fair number of adventurous hobbies . In fact the one thing that was entirely noticeable was the lack of female participation in these activities. I did a lot of different martial arts and the bulk of the participants were blokes. Same with all the risker sports, like abseiling or free fall and the gun clubs, when we had such things in the UK. Even paintballing .Not many female members. One or two, who were openly welcomed and just as proficient if not better at times than the men. But the numbers of women showing a participatry interest were always small in comparison to the men. Say, unlike horse riding, where getting a big dumb animal to do what exactly what they want brings great joy to thousands of women.
    And unfortunately the same has been true mostly true of sci fi and fantasy, though it has been changing slowly, excepting where the genre has been adapted to inject an element of sci fi and fantasy into what is basically a romantic dilemma, such as "The Hunger Games" or "Twilght", in which I have no interest whats so ever, but millions of others, mostly female fans do, because that is the kind of story they like or prefer next to a Superman or Star Wars film. And that is to be welcomed because it opens up the imaginations of people everywhere.
    BUT, if you simply look at the numbers of members in the RPF posting builds and props the overwhelming majority are male. Apart from costuming there don't appear to show any great of interest from female members, and very few displaying the heightened mad passion and obsession we blokes show for a film like Star Wars for example. One or two perhaps and that is it. No, instead they are all posting in forums about the films like that they love like "Hunger Games " or "Harry Potter" for example where they show, I imagine ,just as much passion for their fandom as we do here, because thats the kind of story they prefer.
    Which is why Jeyls continiously posting has become highly irritating. It seems to me the bulk of the membership here have no problem at all with strong female characters AT ALL. Infact we openly embrace them, admire them and enjoy what they bring to the fictional stories we read, watch and play. Not a single mysoginist objection has been raised to the casting in TFA as far as I'm aware, but Jeyl carries on as if the world is hell bent on grinding womens roles into the dirt and extinction. That is simply not the case. The films and series I listed would simply not exist if it were and, if anything they are growing in popularity. Because women are liberated enough to decide entirely what they like and dislike in a film totally by themselves.
    So to continually be bombarded by Jeyls posts on about it in so many threads is really rather insulting, often because he is just completely wrong and totally ignores the fact when his attention is drawn to it. He harped on no end about "X men DOFP" dropping Kitty Pride, threatening to boycot the film because of it,infact I don't think he actually has seen it yet. So he totally ignored the fact that the major role around which the entire story pivoted is actually that of Mystique/Raven and it is her choices ,entirely of her own free will eventually , which esentially changes the entire future of the world for the better. Arguably by not being a bloke and blowing Trasks brains out with a bullet. And its entirely a measure of just how good Jennifer Lawrence is as an actress that she makes her role as Mystique and her internal conflict so movingly believable.
    But does he actually give her any credit for this or for the writers who created the story for her?. Does he hell, he just continues to rant on and on about it like a spoiled child because the movie they produced is not the film as he envisaged it, without doing them the curtesy actually going to see it. Go read it if you don't believe me.
    So its just hugely annoying that he does exactly the same in many other threads and now with Star Wars, and without any shred of evidence to the contrary he heaps loads of scorn on all the possibilities of the female roles before hes even seen what the parts bring to the story. I wonder what the actual actresses would think having read what he's written about them ?Particularly Gwen Christie, who actually puts a hell of a lot of effort into learning the skills needed to make her roles convincing.
    But he seems convinced that his one man mission to prove his point of view is going to change the world. Newsflash Jeyl. It doesn't need you because the sci fi and fantasy genre has already found the huge blockbusting films and stories that appeal to millions of female fans worldwide without you. The fact they are not the ones YOU want them to be means nothing to them and us , the times have changed already and moved without any help from you . You're outdated and poorly constructed arguments to the contary seem dishonest, disingenious and above all,nothing else but away to provoke some attention that somehow I don't think you get from the real world, and which to be honest, if you've had any opportunity to have the same kind of discussion with the opposite sex would probably mark you as a remarkably creepy guy. Most women will be highly suspicious of you as a bloke pushing this agenda into any conversation you may have with them. So give it up.
    Drop this agenda and post something that is actually more relevant because you can do that and have had some interesting points to make and contribute in a thread and this forum. Continue doing this, and at best you're going to be ignored.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  31. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Why is it that so many folks are under the impression that just because I have issues with female representation that I don't believe women in the real world are capable of forming their own opinion on the subject? If a woman said she didn't like how men were treated in a film, I'm not going to lecture her about how, as a man, I don't need her concerns and that I can decided for myself how men are treated in movies. That's just wrong man. You're painting the person in a bad light where there is none. If they say something that you know is not true, why should your responses be so full of accusations and scorn? If female representation isn't all that bad, just talk about that. If you're here on a mission to post comments like this,

    It's not going to work. There are more polite ways to get me to see things from your point of view. I mean, everything you said up there before you started talking about me was really good! I've never watched the Avengers outside of the dreaded 90s film. I would be interested in seeing what kind of character Emma Peel is like.
     
  32. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I consider his Uhura to be a failure. Although her role on the old series was simply of an officer, in the new series, he felt the need to tie her romantically to Spock. It really makes no sense. And as great as Zoe is, she comes of as a shrewish girlfriend. Most of her scenes revolve around her being mad at spock for his lack of emotion.

    Their relationship makes no logical sense and it reduces her character to being one where she just props up the man in her life.
     
  33. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    Yah, 'cause, like, movies with men and women have never been made before. :facepalm
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  34. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yet only 30% of the speaking roles in hollywood are for women.....hmmm
     
  35. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    It's funny - I have as many female friends as male friends and can you guess how often female representation in Hollywood comes up in conversation?
    Exactly never.
     
  36. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Then you'd think the men in films have as many female friends as you do. But they never do.
     
  37. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    They "never" do?
    You don't watch many movies, do you?
    There's more than just action and sci-fi films aimed at teenage boys out there, you know.
    There are grownups making movies, too - some of them, like Woody Allen, have been making movies for decades.
     
  38. astroboy

    astroboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I watch lots of movies. But that doesn't change the statistic.

    Sure, Allen makes great films, but he is a rare bird.

    As for action films, they's no longer aimed at boys. They're the biggest draw at the box office by a long shot. And yes, many of them contain a strong, female. But for the most part, she's the only woman in the movie. Did you watch the video I posted above regarding the Bechdel test? It's very short but it hits the point home
     
  39. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    I'm familiar with the Bechdel test.
    Very few films these days actually fail the test - and they're usually the lowest-common-denominator action-movie crap that's all the rage right now.
    And as long as grown-ups like you and I (I assume you're a grown-up) continue paying money to watch that garbage, the beancounters who greenlight movies will continue crapping it out because they think that's what we want.

    The solution is simple: Stop paying for that crap, and hopefully hollywood will stop making it.

    Hollywood is making progress, though.
    "Guardians of the Galaxy" was HUGE last year, and it had 2 very strong, very cool females.
    You could argue that Gamorah was just a foil for Quill's affections, and I'm sure you or Jeyl will, but I can counter-argue that Quill is a guy, and being a guy he likes pretty girls and can't help but try to get in their pants.
    And I'm perfectly fine with that relationship between men and women in films, because that's the way it is in life.

    I'm all for equality, but I'm also all for sex, and I don't want that line between the sexes eroded until we're living in 1984 wearing matching coveralls and going to prison for smiling at a pretty girl. Which is where I sometimes fear uber-feminists like you and Jeyl want us living.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
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  40. OldKen

    OldKen Master Member

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    Do you guys know who Ronda Rousey is?

    One of the baddest MMA fighters in the world.

    And she likes to also be girly, pretty, and sexy.

    There are many bikini pics on the net. And she LIKES to do that kind of thing. She isn't the kind of girl that COULD be taken advantage of or exploited. She's loving life, proud of her strength. AND PROUD OF BEING SEXY AS HELL!

    She would laugh at your thread and could beat you all up at the same time...

    Women can be whatever they WANT to be.

    A Dr. A stripper. A lawyer. A rockstar.

    Even a ghostbuster!!!


    Why aren't our awesome female RPFers stepping in and praising/thanking you for throwing your coats in a mud puddle????

    CAUSE THEY DONT NEED YOU TO!!! THIS ISNT THE 1950's!!!!!




    This thread is as useless as * on a bull.

    Or Bruce Jenner.







    MIC DROP..................
     
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  41. CutThumb

    CutThumb Sr Member

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    Jeyl- I'll make you a deal. You keep all your comments about female representation in films to this thread and this thread only and I will never ever, ever reply to another of your self centred and utterly self absorbed posts again. Promise.
     
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  42. dascoyne

    dascoyne Master Member

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    60 years ago this discussion might have been insightful.
    Female characters in film aren't exactly 50-50 with male protagonists yet but there's already a powerful and politically correct lobby of feminist writers (e.g. Joss Whedon), directors (e.g. Kathryn Bigelow) and actors (e.g. Angelina Jolie) that push to advance the cause. It's no longer the days where Hollywood was all the "boys club." The club is still around but there is a popular vocal opposition that's always growing.
    Restating an issue that's being addressed is neither insightful nor helpful.
    At least the lobby is proposing solutions. Stewing over the problem only feeds a victim mentality. We're well past recognizing that mentality is a trap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  43. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Calling Bechdel test a test is specious at best. And your own argument is contradictory. You acknowledge that previous films from decades past were aimed at young men and boys in the actio genre and now we have those films featuring strong female characters but there's only one. So somehow if there are two and they pass the Bechdel Test is the benchmark? What if the character is the lead, is amazingly realized, but she doesn't talk to another woman in the film? Is this a failure?
     
  44. Axlotl

    Axlotl Master Member

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    Angel of Verdun, "Edge of Tomorrow".
     
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  45. NeoRutty

    NeoRutty Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I think I'm in love...

    My poor wife and kid... now I have to break it to them that while it's been fun, I have to track down this lovely lady and start my new life.
     
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  46. Bryancd

    Bryancd Master Member

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    Great example.
     
  47. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Master Member

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    No, I don't, but I saw a bunch of news pop up about her yesterday, including Kevin Smith suggesting that she be cast as the Carol Danvers iteration of Captain Marvel. She seems to look the part. What's unclear is whether she can act at all. And to be honest, if she can't act, I don't want her in the film, no matter how close to the real deal she happens to look.




    Aside from that, I think it's important to note the difference between representation on the one hand, and tokenism and pandering on the other. I'm all for more representation. Having women be fleshed out, positive, realistic characters, who exist for reasons independent of catering to heterosexual male sensibilities, and who show their worth by being more than just eye candy or a male fantasy. But I don't want to see roles cast as women just so we can say "Look! A female lead!"

    The problem with focusing on raw numbers as far as how many speaking roles there are, etc., is that such a focus often misses that merely increasing quantity does not increase quality. Hollywood could undergo some internal shift where it starts casting a ton more roles for women...but still writes them as if they were dreamed up by a 13-year-old boy or an executive for the publishing company that owns Cosmo. I'd classify that as a "lateral move" rather than actual progress.

    And to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see fewer overall roles for women, if it would guarantee that whenever you do see a woman on the screen, she's a fully realized character and the role is a quality one. But then, I'd rather the same applied to men, too.


    Mostly, I'd just like to see better writing and movies that don't appear to view their audience as low-grade morons.
     
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  48. OldKen

    OldKen Master Member

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  49. The Mad Professor

    The Mad Professor Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thing is, if they cast Ronda Rousey in the role, I will be excited. The reason why is because Marvel is not known for stunt casting a role. If they cast someone, it's because they auditioned and were found to be the best choice for the role. This would mean that she "gets" the character and will do the job correctly.

    Personally, though, I'm pulling for Yvonne Strahovski.
     
  50. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    For the last time,

    NO ONE OWES ME ANYTHING AND I'M NOT DOING THIS FOR ANY KIND OF PRAISE.

    I'm doing this because this is my criticism of the system. A system that, while certainly has shown signs of improvement, could still do a lot better.
     

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