Female representation in hollywood
- Thread starter astroboy
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astroboy
Master Member
I know. I just felt like fury road need even more praise.
Seriously. That was a friggin' film!
On the topic of Claire from Jurassic World, let's not forget one thing... Claire is a corporate busybody, not an outdoorswoman. This is plainly evident in her pale complexion, white clothing and high heels in a tropical environment. She was strong, yes, but in a different way than Owen. Her strength lies in the boardroom and in management. This is why she is in charge of a multimillion (or even multibillion) dollar theme park owned by one of the richest companies in the world. They wanted a corporate shark in charge of the place, someone who can do all the things that are necessary to ensure success, including wrangling everything from the day to day things that keeps JW open and running, to the scientists working on new attractions, to the government/military interests in the technology. This is her wheelhouse. Owen, as much of a man's man that he is, would probably fold under that kind of pressure.
The fact that the boys gravitated to Owen is largely because very few kids can readily identify with someone like her. Her very job depends on her being an Ice Queen, and it's somewhat isolated her from her family and even crept into her dating life (hence the disastrous first date with Owen). Owen, on the other hand, is a role model for kids of their age. He's charismatic, smart, resourceful, and a survivor, capable of handling himself well in overtly dangerous situations (plus someone who trains freaking VELOCIRAPTORS automatically gets, like, a BILLION cool points).
Given the disparity of outdoorsy knowledge between Owen and Claire and factoring in the situation with the Indominous loose, it's perfectly reasonable that you would gravitate towards the person most capable of helping you survive. The boys gravitating to him and not Claire is not indicative of sexism. It's because kids of that age instinctively seek protection from a father figure and nurturing from a mother figure (this is why Lex and Tim gravitated to Alan Grant for protection in the first movie when the crap hit the fan... it wasn't just because he was the one they were stuck with). Even when Claire took a level in badass by bringing in Rexy, she's still the same distant aunt that they know.
Personally, if they had made her a competent outdoorswoman as well as corporate shark or had written the kids suddenly flocking to her side in that terribly cliched way that Hollywood sometimes does, it would have strained the limits of credulity.
Yes, you read that right. I would have found THAT more incredulous than dinosaurs and dino-hybrids duking it out in modern times on the big screen.
The fact that the boys gravitated to Owen is largely because very few kids can readily identify with someone like her. Her very job depends on her being an Ice Queen, and it's somewhat isolated her from her family and even crept into her dating life (hence the disastrous first date with Owen). Owen, on the other hand, is a role model for kids of their age. He's charismatic, smart, resourceful, and a survivor, capable of handling himself well in overtly dangerous situations (plus someone who trains freaking VELOCIRAPTORS automatically gets, like, a BILLION cool points).
Given the disparity of outdoorsy knowledge between Owen and Claire and factoring in the situation with the Indominous loose, it's perfectly reasonable that you would gravitate towards the person most capable of helping you survive. The boys gravitating to him and not Claire is not indicative of sexism. It's because kids of that age instinctively seek protection from a father figure and nurturing from a mother figure (this is why Lex and Tim gravitated to Alan Grant for protection in the first movie when the crap hit the fan... it wasn't just because he was the one they were stuck with). Even when Claire took a level in badass by bringing in Rexy, she's still the same distant aunt that they know.
Personally, if they had made her a competent outdoorswoman as well as corporate shark or had written the kids suddenly flocking to her side in that terribly cliched way that Hollywood sometimes does, it would have strained the limits of credulity.
Yes, you read that right. I would have found THAT more incredulous than dinosaurs and dino-hybrids duking it out in modern times on the big screen.
Mr Mold Maker
Master Member
The only line from an Asian I can remember in Star Wars is "I'm hit!" *explosion*.
Seriously. You want to talk about misrepresenting someone?
How come every one of my Asian brothers and sisters are exclusively ninjas, or "derivery drivers" for Asian food places. :lol
(PS Hollywood, we Asians don't all know martial arts.)
Look, I'm from Texas. We get the same treatment. All the popular images of a Texan include the cowboy motif or parts thereof.
I'm thirty-eight years old, going on thirty-nine. Not once in my entire life have I owned a cowboy hat, a pickup truck, cowboy boots, or a belt buckle that doubles as a dinner plate.
astroboy
Master Member
Mr Mold Maker
Master Member
That's racist dude.
I know we all look the same to your people, but Glenn doesn't play every Asian in every film you've ever seen.
(I am absolutely kidding if that isn't apparent.)
jlee562
Sr Member
I know we're veering to the opposite of women; but on the subject of Glen, I've got to give a tip of the hat to The Walking Dead. I loved the little thing they did with Daryl and Glen, when the first time they meet, Daryl says something about "the Chinese kid," and Glen says "I'm Korean." Later on, Merle says something about "the Chinese kid," and Daryl corrects him and says "he's Korean."
I loved that little moment.
On Asian women, I've actually really enjoyed Ming Na Wen on Agents of SHIELD. The character is still a bit two dimensional, but it's nice to see an Asian woman not put into the demure role.
I loved that little moment.
On Asian women, I've actually really enjoyed Ming Na Wen on Agents of SHIELD. The character is still a bit two dimensional, but it's nice to see an Asian woman not put into the demure role.
Have you seen Joss Whedon's musical, Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog? The commentary track is also a musical and one of the writers/lyricists named Maurissa Tancharoen who is Thai has a funny (and beautifully sung) song about casting only white people for the show:
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What was false or misleading about the list I put up? It was purely a factual response to Jeyls oft trumpeted point that sci fi and fantasy neglected or deliberately side lined strong female roles. When I thought about it and actually started looking at it I found it wasn't actually supported by the evidence. There were literally dozens of roles where the lead character was an actress. Infact whole TV series were based entirely on the stories surrounding them ,and, were in their time, enjoyed by millions. Even the series that didn't have a direct female lead had characters that were hugely memorable and became cultural icons.
The first female character I actually really liked was Dianna Rigg as Emma Peel in "The Avengers" and I wondered why? I quote:" She is a heroine; she is rarely bested in any fight and is capable of rescuing Steed if he is in trouble. She is a master of "Martial arts" and a formidable fencer. A certified genius, she specializes in chemistry and other sciences. She is often seen in episodes engaging in artistic hobbies and had success in industry at the helm of the company of her late father, Sir John Knight. Her husband, Peter Peel, was a pilot whose plane disappeared over the Amazonian forest. He was presumed dead for many years, and Peel went on to work with Steed. She drove a convertible Lotus at high speeds, and convincingly portrayed any series of undercover roles, from nurse to nanny. Her favourite guise was that of a women's magazine reporter, trying to interview big business tycoons and rich playboys. The name "Emma Peel" is a play on the phrase "Man Appeal" or "M. Appeal", which the production team stated was one of the required elements of the character ". So I guess I liked her because she liked a lot of things I did, and that's why to a certain degree , strong female roles like hers appeal to guys, because we can admire and relate to them more easily.
I have never met any woman who could claim to be anything like Emma Peel in reality and in my younger days I had a fair number of adventurous hobbies . In fact the one thing that was entirely noticeable was the lack of female participation in these activities. I did a lot of different martial arts and the bulk of the participants were blokes. Same with all the risker sports, like abseiling or free fall and the gun clubs, when we had such things in the UK. Even paintballing .Not many female members. One or two, who were openly welcomed and just as proficient if not better at times than the men. But the numbers of women showing a participatry interest were always small in comparison to the men. Say, unlike horse riding, where getting a big dumb animal to do what exactly what they want brings great joy to thousands of women.
And unfortunately the same has been true mostly true of sci fi and fantasy, though it has been changing slowly, excepting where the genre has been adapted to inject an element of sci fi and fantasy into what is basically a romantic dilemma, such as "The Hunger Games" or "Twilght", in which I have no interest whats so ever, but millions of others, mostly female fans do, because that is the kind of story they like or prefer next to a Superman or Star Wars film. And that is to be welcomed because it opens up the imaginations of people everywhere.
BUT, if you simply look at the numbers of members in the RPF posting builds and props the overwhelming majority are male. Apart from costuming there don't appear to show any great of interest from female members, and very few displaying the heightened mad passion and obsession we blokes show for a film like Star Wars for example. One or two perhaps and that is it. No, instead they are all posting in forums about the films like that they love like "Hunger Games " or "Harry Potter" for example where they show, I imagine ,just as much passion for their fandom as we do here, because thats the kind of story they prefer.
Which is why Jeyls continiously posting has become highly irritating. It seems to me the bulk of the membership here have no problem at all with strong female characters AT ALL. Infact we openly embrace them, admire them and enjoy what they bring to the fictional stories we read, watch and play. Not a single mysoginist objection has been raised to the casting in TFA as far as I'm aware, but Jeyl carries on as if the world is hell bent on grinding womens roles into the dirt and extinction. That is simply not the case. The films and series I listed would simply not exist if it were and, if anything they are growing in popularity. Because women are liberated enough to decide entirely what they like and dislike in a film totally by themselves.
So to continually be bombarded by Jeyls posts on about it in so many threads is really rather insulting, often because he is just completely wrong and totally ignores the fact when his attention is drawn to it. He harped on no end about "X men DOFP" dropping Kitty Pride, threatening to boycot the film because of it,infact I don't think he actually has seen it yet. So he totally ignored the fact that the major role around which the entire story pivoted is actually that of Mystique/Raven and it is her choices ,entirely of her own free will eventually , which esentially changes the entire future of the world for the better. Arguably by not being a bloke and blowing Trasks brains out with a bullet. And its entirely a measure of just how good Jennifer Lawrence is as an actress that she makes her role as Mystique and her internal conflict so movingly believable.
But does he actually give her any credit for this or for the writers who created the story for her?. Does he hell, he just continues to rant on and on about it like a spoiled child because the movie they produced is not the film as he envisaged it, without doing them the curtesy actually going to see it. Go read it if you don't believe me.
So its just hugely annoying that he does exactly the same in many other threads and now with Star Wars, and without any shred of evidence to the contrary he heaps loads of scorn on all the possibilities of the female roles before hes even seen what the parts bring to the story. I wonder what the actual actresses would think having read what he's written about them ?Particularly Gwen Christie, who actually puts a hell of a lot of effort into learning the skills needed to make her roles convincing.
But he seems convinced that his one man mission to prove his point of view is going to change the world. Newsflash Jeyl. It doesn't need you because the sci fi and fantasy genre has already found the huge blockbusting films and stories that appeal to millions of female fans worldwide without you. The fact they are not the ones YOU want them to be means nothing to them and us , the times have changed already and moved without any help from you . You're outdated and poorly constructed arguments to the contary seem dishonest, disingenious and above all,nothing else but away to provoke some attention that somehow I don't think you get from the real world, and which to be honest, if you've had any opportunity to have the same kind of discussion with the opposite sex would probably mark you as a remarkably creepy guy. Most women will be highly suspicious of you as a bloke pushing this agenda into any conversation you may have with them. So give it up.
Drop this agenda and post something that is actually more relevant because you can do that and have had some interesting points to make and contribute in a thread and this forum. Continue doing this, and at best you're going to be ignored.
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Why is it that so many folks are under the impression that just because I have issues with female representation that I don't believe women in the real world are capable of forming their own opinion on the subject? If a woman said she didn't like how men were treated in a film, I'm not going to lecture her about how, as a man, I don't need her concerns and that I can decided for myself how men are treated in movies. That's just wrong man. You're painting the person in a bad light where there is none. If they say something that you know is not true, why should your responses be so full of accusations and scorn? If female representation isn't all that bad, just talk about that. If you're here on a mission to post comments like this,
It's not going to work. There are more polite ways to get me to see things from your point of view. I mean, everything you said up there before you started talking about me was really good! I've never watched the Avengers outside of the dreaded 90s film. I would be interested in seeing what kind of character Emma Peel is like.
astroboy
Master Member
I consider his Uhura to be a failure. Although her role on the old series was simply of an officer, in the new series, he felt the need to tie her romantically to Spock. It really makes no sense. And as great as Zoe is, she comes of as a shrewish girlfriend. Most of her scenes revolve around her being mad at spock for his lack of emotion.
Their relationship makes no logical sense and it reduces her character to being one where she just props up the man in her life.
Axlotl
Master Member
Yah, 'cause, like, movies with men and women have never been made before. :facepalm
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astroboy
Master Member
astroboy
Master Member
Then you'd think the men in films have as many female friends as you do. But they never do.
Axlotl
Master Member
They "never" do?
You don't watch many movies, do you?
There's more than just action and sci-fi films aimed at teenage boys out there, you know.
There are grownups making movies, too - some of them, like Woody Allen, have been making movies for decades.
astroboy
Master Member
I watch lots of movies. But that doesn't change the statistic.
Sure, Allen makes great films, but he is a rare bird.
As for action films, they's no longer aimed at boys. They're the biggest draw at the box office by a long shot. And yes, many of them contain a strong, female. But for the most part, she's the only woman in the movie. Did you watch the video I posted above regarding the Bechdel test? It's very short but it hits the point home
Axlotl
Master Member
I'm familiar with the Bechdel test.
Very few films these days actually fail the test - and they're usually the lowest-common-denominator action-movie crap that's all the rage right now.
And as long as grown-ups like you and I (I assume you're a grown-up) continue paying money to watch that garbage, the beancounters who greenlight movies will continue crapping it out because they think that's what we want.
The solution is simple: Stop paying for that crap, and hopefully hollywood will stop making it.
Hollywood is making progress, though.
"Guardians of the Galaxy" was HUGE last year, and it had 2 very strong, very cool females.
You could argue that Gamorah was just a foil for Quill's affections, and I'm sure you or Jeyl will, but I can counter-argue that Quill is a guy, and being a guy he likes pretty girls and can't help but try to get in their pants.
And I'm perfectly fine with that relationship between men and women in films, because that's the way it is in life.
I'm all for equality, but I'm also all for sex, and I don't want that line between the sexes eroded until we're living in 1984 wearing matching coveralls and going to prison for smiling at a pretty girl. Which is where I sometimes fear uber-feminists like you and Jeyl want us living.
Very few films these days actually fail the test - and they're usually the lowest-common-denominator action-movie crap that's all the rage right now.
And as long as grown-ups like you and I (I assume you're a grown-up) continue paying money to watch that garbage, the beancounters who greenlight movies will continue crapping it out because they think that's what we want.
The solution is simple: Stop paying for that crap, and hopefully hollywood will stop making it.
Hollywood is making progress, though.
"Guardians of the Galaxy" was HUGE last year, and it had 2 very strong, very cool females.
You could argue that Gamorah was just a foil for Quill's affections, and I'm sure you or Jeyl will, but I can counter-argue that Quill is a guy, and being a guy he likes pretty girls and can't help but try to get in their pants.
And I'm perfectly fine with that relationship between men and women in films, because that's the way it is in life.
I'm all for equality, but I'm also all for sex, and I don't want that line between the sexes eroded until we're living in 1984 wearing matching coveralls and going to prison for smiling at a pretty girl. Which is where I sometimes fear uber-feminists like you and Jeyl want us living.
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OldKen
Master Member
Do you guys know who Ronda Rousey is?
One of the baddest MMA fighters in the world.
And she likes to also be girly, pretty, and sexy.
There are many bikini pics on the net. And she LIKES to do that kind of thing. She isn't the kind of girl that COULD be taken advantage of or exploited. She's loving life, proud of her strength. AND PROUD OF BEING SEXY AS HELL!
She would laugh at your thread and could beat you all up at the same time...
Women can be whatever they WANT to be.
A Dr. A stripper. A lawyer. A rockstar.
Even a ghostbuster!!!
Why aren't our awesome female RPFers stepping in and praising/thanking you for throwing your coats in a mud puddle????
CAUSE THEY DONT NEED YOU TO!!! THIS ISNT THE 1950's!!!!!
This thread is as useless as boobs on a bull.
Or Bruce Jenner.
MIC DROP..................
One of the baddest MMA fighters in the world.
And she likes to also be girly, pretty, and sexy.
There are many bikini pics on the net. And she LIKES to do that kind of thing. She isn't the kind of girl that COULD be taken advantage of or exploited. She's loving life, proud of her strength. AND PROUD OF BEING SEXY AS HELL!
She would laugh at your thread and could beat you all up at the same time...
Women can be whatever they WANT to be.
A Dr. A stripper. A lawyer. A rockstar.
Even a ghostbuster!!!
Why aren't our awesome female RPFers stepping in and praising/thanking you for throwing your coats in a mud puddle????
CAUSE THEY DONT NEED YOU TO!!! THIS ISNT THE 1950's!!!!!
This thread is as useless as boobs on a bull.
Or Bruce Jenner.
MIC DROP..................
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