Debunking the color of Vaders Lenses for his ANH Helmet

[mverta]

Reason being is that once inside the helmet, light is only allowed to pass through the lens in one direction and the dark interior does not let it reflect out.

This is physically incorrect on two counts: 1) The lenses are not polarized, so light travels with equal power through the lens whether from direct or indirect (reflected) illumination. 2) As for the dark interior, with a human head in the helmet, it is not a dark interior any longer. The reflectance value for human skin is not extremely high, but certainly high enough to make a pronounced impact photometrically on surrounding objects or transmissives.

Amber (yellow) and red occupy very different wavelengths of the spectrum, and one can not "convert" into another without some particular things going on in the material substrata. This is absolutely possible - for example, some thin coatings can produce what is known as "interference" causing a host of other spectrum colors to appear, but we'd need to confirm such was the case with the lenses.

We need to know why this color shift would be happening, because the whole "reflected light" thing has nothing to do with it, from a physics standpoint. Neither does the presence of a lower-reflectance area behind the lenses - if anything such a thing would reduce perceived saturation of the lenses, not intensify it, and certainly not change its spectrum. Consider yellow tinted sunglasses. You can see the yellow coloring much more clearly against a white background than a black background, because the higher reflectance of the white background reflects more illuminant energy back through the lenses.

Do you know what the lenses are made of? I can do a quick IOR table lookup to see what its photometric properties are.


_Mike

 

[GINO]

Mike, I think you are way over analysing.
Believe me when I say, I tried every possible color/shade of lense inside a vader helmet. The color they looked in hand, was completely different when placed inside the helmet. I don't know technically why (from a scientific point of view), but I do know it is because of the dark interior.
Of all the reference I've seen including all the testing I've done, I'm positive they were a dark amber, brownish-orange.
If you don't take my word for it, do some testing yourself and you'll reach the same conclusions as me.

 

[mverta]

Mike, I think you are way over analysing. If you don't take my word for it, do some testing yourself and you'll reach the same conclusions as me.

I'm going to pretend you didn't just accuse somebody of over analyzing Vader, because that level of ironic hypocrisy is more than the universe can handle.

But you're right that practical experience has value. We have some issues here, though which is why I AM going to test it myself, and look forward to learning what you already know:

1) How they look in real life and how they photograph is likely different.

2) What you photograph them with affects how they photograph.

Painting an X-Wing model like the originals were painted makes them look cartoony - the actual on-screen appearance was far more muted due to multi-generational optical composites. Similarly, unless your references had a color chart in them, consider them suspect. Also, is your monitor calibrated? All these things radically affect the perception of color. And FORGET looking at stuff on an NTSC monitor (tv) of any kind, as that throws your color spectrum completely out the window.

Ultimately, there are some very rigid physical properties which we can simulate to determine "actual" color, and it's worth it to me to investigate. In the end, we want to know what color lenses photograph in this narrow red spectrum on that film stock (a known color response) under those lighting conditions (a very nearly known condition).


_Mike

 

[GINO]

I'm going to pretend you didn't just accuse somebody of over analyzing Vader, because that level of ironic hypocrisy is more than the universe can handle.

Touché. :lol

But you're right that practical experience has value. We have some issues here, though which is why I AM going to test it myself, and look forward to learning what you already know:

1) How they look in real life and how they photograph is likely different.

2) What you photograph them with affects how they photograph.

I can agree with that. Although I'd say that the most dramatic difference is how they look in hand vs. how they look placed inside a helmet (even with a head inside).

Interested to see what you come up with.

 

[mverta]

I'd say that the most dramatic difference is how they look in hand vs. how they look placed inside a helmet (even with a head inside)..

Do you have a guess at how thick the lenses are?

_Mike

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Yes....here's the wrinkle and it's on the inside...

And if you correct the color on that photo....the lens is reddish there as well. Maybe Mike can try that exercise...thanks Mike for your in depth explanations....it's great to have someone here able to show that you can derive reliable information from images if you perform the appropriate tests.

And you had matched these wrinkles and scratches to screen captures from the Tantive scene? Did I get that right?

Part One:
Vader Lens Analysis Video 1
Part Two will be a digital simulation of the scene to recreate the actual lens tint.
_Mike

Bummer... I'm getting a black screen when trying to play this file. Can't get quicktime, 'cause it does something to my system, which is impossible to fix and too annoying, though... maybe that's why I can't view it. :cry

 

[mverta]

Ah yes, sorry, it's H.264 codec, Qucktime Great codec, though.

_Mike

 

[yakcam]

I just right clicked and saved, then WMP asked me if I wanted it to look for a codec/update to be able to play the file (you could probably play it in VLC without an update).

Cheers,

Kraig

 

[defstartrooper]

I just right clicked and saved, then WMP asked me if I wanted it to look for a codec/update to be able to play the file (you could probably play it in VLC without an update).

Cheers,

Kraig

Doesn't matter what player it is if you don't have the codec it aint gunna play

 

[KevVader]

From a purely practical perspective, why use a light gray or clear lense? I would think that you would not want to see the actor's eyes ("more machine than man" yadda, yadda), yet you would the colour of the lense to facilitate the actor to be able to see out enough so that he wouldn't trip over everything.

This seems to be corroborated with what Prowse has said in the past. They tried the lighter lenses and then tried gradually darker shades/colours until his eyes weren't visible, ending up with the amber colour.

 

[artoo77]

Not sure if you can trust Mr. Prowse's memory (any more then mine). When I first met him in about 1994, he saw an archive ESB-era mask and remarked that it must've been repainted, as he doesn't remember a two tone paint job. He told me none of the masks he wore were painted that way.

--Don (getting old) Bies

From a purely practical perspective, why use a light gray or clear lense? I would think that you would not want to see the actor's eyes ("more machine than man" yadda, yadda), yet you would the colour of the lense to facilitate the actor to be able to see out enough so that he wouldn't trip over everything.

This seems to be corroborated with what Prowse has said in the past. They tried the lighter lenses and then tried gradually darker shades/colours until his eyes weren't visible, ending up with the amber colour.

 

[vader71]

Great stuff. I am looking forward to the results of the testing.
So

 

[KevVader]

Not sure if you can trust Mr. Prowse's memory (any more then mine). When I first met him in about 1994, he saw an archive ESB-era mask and remarked that it must've been repainted, as he doesn't remember a two tone paint job. He told me none of the masks he wore were painted that way.

--Don (getting old) Bies

Understood and agreed....but he did look through the lenses for months....you would think that something would stick!

But again, using a light gray or close to clear lense doesn't make sense to me as the actor's eyes would be too visible.

 

[artoo77]

I don't think it was clear, though I see that you may have interpreted my response that they were... but the ones I've seen are lighter grey and not dark like sunglasses. It's very possible they put the grey, smoked plex in, thought it would work, started seeing his eyes, and then started adding gels to darken.

By the way, the earlier post about R2's radar eye...If I remember correctly (!), it was the same smoked plex as the Vader eyes.

Regarding thickness, Mike: Again, to the best of my recollection, the plex on both the R2 eye and Vader eyes was 1/8"...actually, the stock started out at that thickness, and would have diminished by a little due to the vacuum-form process.

Understood and agreed....but he did look through the lenses for months....you would think that something would stick!

But again, using a light gray or close to clear lense doesn't make sense to me as the actor's eyes would be too visible.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

By the way, the earlier post about R2's radar eye...If I remember correctly (!), it was the same smoked plex as the Vader eyes.

Would be interesting to see what such a sheet of smoked plex looks like by itself and what effects it has when formed and in use.

 

[darthvaderv]

Just caught up with this thread LOL..I gave the subtle answer on the 2nd post.

doing close-ups with the helmet, we would take gel (Neutral Density) and tape them in to the lens so that we don't see the performer's eyes. For wider shots, we'd remove them for better visibility. On one occasion, we did blacken the actors eyes (with make-up, not a swift right hook

).

What I couldn't mention until now is something Don said which I have shots of screen masks having. So I'm in agreement for sure although I did not know they did this for ANH, For ESB/ROTJ that was the case.

Bare in mind lots of things Vader do not make sense, I have the reference but am not permitted to share but I will confirm what I said in the beginning. The lenses were not as dark as most think.

Nothing, including the Elstree mask believe me to think they are Grey on SCREEN, I have done my own tests and the look is just not identical. Stick with Amber for ANH. Obviously there are different strengths, dependent on whether you dyed them yourself or bought etc..

For those who want to take a short vut You can also cheat if the lens are too light or even too dark for a mannequin by putting the appropriate tint behind the lens.

All the behind the scene reference shots I have, Prowse does not have his eyes dark, like say Mayhew, although In his book, as DB said, they tried to blacken his eyes through experimenting.

 

[mverta]

We keep throwing around the term amber, which is a yellow hue, while the onscreen spectrum is unquestionably red. We don't have an explanation for this physical phenomenon yet, and it can't happen just by default.


_Mike

 

[GINO]

When I say amber, I don't think of yellow at all.
In laymans terms, think of the color of iced tea.

 

[darthvaderv]

I'm in complete agreement with Gino.

I have seen quite a few shots of them looking yellowish when the helmet is off but TBH brownish amber rather than Yellowish is better, almost like a bronze color for later versions such as ESB/Jedi.

The lenses are not red.

 

[mverta]

Spectrum-wise, amber is yellow, as is brown, as is iced tea. It's absolutely possible they are amber, but they're photographing red, which represents an extreme shift in wavelengths we need an explanation for. My initial guess has to be contributions of skin tone, since that is clearly in the red family, but my initial simulations aren't showing that yet. I'll keep trying.


_Mike