Debunking the color of Vaders Lenses for his ANH Helmet

mverta, when doing your color magic, could you also do it on the hangar scene X-Wing helmets, as they are confirmed grey in color but has a reddish/brown tinge in the movie in some angles - not the orange colored visors seen later when they are flying.

That would be interesting to see what you find there.
 
OK, I am not an expert on Vader or color correction or transmissiveness or whatever. I can only speak of my own experience.

The much-maligned Rubies Supreme Vader, which I am guilty of owning and wearing on Halloween, has thin grey tinted lenses. Yet in flash pictures, you can easily see the reddish tone of my pasty white guy skin beneath. It LOOKS like red lenses. (See attached.)

On film sets, the lighting is generally very high key - especially for older films when they used slower speed film stock. And Vader's lenses don't always look reddish, only when light is shining directly into them.

So isn't it possible that they were fairly THIN grey lenses and the reddish tone we're seeing is always Prowse's skin? And that for the sequels they had thicker or darker grey lenses and/or were more careful about lighting them?

Just asking...

Rick
ok here is another pic with the red color
 
No damage done--I was wrong.

I remember an ANH mask in the archives that was not two-tone...it was probably done after the fact. I know for certain the ROTS mask was one color (but that's not the discussion here, is it!)...I guess the point is still valid, that they did their best to make the costume pop more for ESB.

--Don (and his faulty memory) Bies
Didn't mean to stomp on you... the info on the lenses were cool! :)
 
That shot is looking you right in the eye. Vader is practically in profile most of the time, so it seems unlikely.

It's the angle of the light, not the angle of the photograph. In other flash photos of me in the helmet at different angles, you can also see the redness from the light reflecting off my face. Sorry, don't have any of my pix handy right now, but it's the same idea as the framegrab propcollector posted on page 6, in which Vader is nearly profile. And in the climactic tie fight, Vader's lenses look red only when he looks up into a light.

I can tell THIS thread is going to be enormous!:lol

Rick

And PS, yes, the two-tone paint scheme was more pronounced for ESB for sure, as it was planned instead of being done on-set at the last minute as we understand the ANH paint was.
 
I'm not sure I'm reading this right. You're talking about the Elstree face mask next to the Indy whip?

Yes....here's the wrinkle and it's on the inside...

wrinkleelstreelens.jpg


And if you correct the color on that photo....the lens is reddish there as well. Maybe Mike can try that exercise...thanks Mike for your in depth explanations....it's great to have someone here able to show that you can derive reliable information from images if you perform the appropriate tests.
 
I did this a while back might have posted it before...showing how angle doesn't change what the color is...as I always thought it was a dark amber color...red


EyeLenseANHcolor.jpg


One thing you can do is compare it to R2's eye in ANH...Kenny Baker is behind as well so if it was just a matter of Kenny's face the color correction application would indicate that R2s eye was red as well...something Mr. Bies might be able to speak better to...but to me it looks more brown than red...

R2lense.jpg


I've always said go back to the original ANH VHS...the first one that came out...it's not as dark as the DVDs...it's easier to see the amber color...

TantiveIVVadTD1VHS.jpg
 
Okay, I'll take this stuff one at a time, but starting with the most recent post, if you actually analyze the color channels of that still, you'll see it is indeed in the red family, with the green and blue channels very similar (and certainly not more green, as it'd need to be if it was amber/yellow).

When Don showed me the originals at the archives, the lens colors was the first thing I checked, and they were undoubtedly gray with that slight lean brown he was talking about. We're just not sure those are the same lenses seen in these scenes from ANH. I'm putting together a video which I'll post soon to illustrate a couple things, but let's be clear that all we're confirming here in step 1 is what color they ultimately photographed as. I'm putting all the money on red, for the aforementioned, and some other reasons I'll illustrate in the video. But the next question will be what was contributing to the red - David's skin, or the lenses themselves. As you'll see, there are almost equal arguments for both, photographically, and it's absolutely true that gray lenses could appear this reddish hue because of contributions from the skin tone underneath. Ultimately, what I'm going to have to do is simulate the setups in an unbiased spectral renderer so we can get a better idea for how the actual colors played out.

Anyway, video to follow.

And Don, thanks for the props, I'll get the check out to you as usual :$

_Mike
 
..it is... (?) Oh I see, SithLord called deep amber red, when actually deep amber is brown. Okay, well that's cleared up now hopefully. Also, SL, your photos, while all off-axis slightly, still have angle such that the actor's skin can be seen through the lens, contributing to the color, if that's what we determine it is.

_Mike
 
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i just dont think that if this color was amber it would show up as a rose color.If it was a dark amber the flesh tone of his skin would not be enough to change the hue to red
 
I always considered amber as a kind of orange/brown, that being the case wouldn't the colour register more toward the red end of the spectrum ?
All highly interesting this i look forward to seeing the video :thumbsup
 
Works fine for me.

I think that it's worth noting that the shot you use in the demo appears to have a strong keylight coming from the front, directly onto his face, possibly illuminating the face inside more then other shots. As my (occasionally faulty) memory recalls, some of those lenses were really light and clear, potentially allowing that skin tone to show up when a strong light is present. However, I understand (I think) your analysis, especially regarding the contrast issues...

You're too thorough, Mike...My head hurts now.:sick

--Don (throbbing brain) Bies

Part One:
Vader Lens Analysis Video 1

Part Two will be a digital simulation of the scene to recreate the actual lens tint.


_Mike
 
Really cool... I could watch that all day :lol

Well what I was thinking is why don't you take the color of Tarkin's face in different areas and subtract that from the lens? Assuming Prowse was perhaps just a bit darker than Tarkin (he was an elderly gentleman), could you then account for the additional red power? If we assume a contribution from the face, and spectrally you can subtract, then you should be able to better resolve the lens hue.
 
:confused BLOODY HELL MIKE, you don't muck around!!! That was one of the coolest things I've seen in a while, It certainly highlights your expertise too.

Thanks for putting that together for us :thumbsup

Cheers,

Kraig
 
I think that it's worth noting that the shot you use in the demo appears to have a strong keylight coming from the front, directly onto his face, possibly illuminating the face inside more then other shots.

--Don (throbbing brain) Bies

Yep, that's why I chose it... it's about as pronounced as it gets, so when we simulate the shot, I think it'll provide the most data. I'm building the 3D elements now... will post vids as soon as I have something conclusive to show.

Well what I was thinking is why don't you take the color of Tarkin's face in different areas and subtract that from the lens?


That's essentially what we're going to do, but in order to do it, we have to recreate it. What we're going to do is put a 3d head inside a 3d Vader helmet under the same lighting conditions and see what the lenses have to be in order to photograph the same way. There are a lot of strong lighting cues in the reference frame, so we can match it with good approximation, and of course we will have a fairly narrow range of skin tones to choose from as contributory elements, so we should get a fairly accurate picture of the lens color contributions at the end of the simulation.

_Mike
 
Wow. Just saw this thread.
Short answer, the lenses were amber (a brown-ish/dark orange).
The lenses look one way outside of the helmet, but once placed inside the dark helmet, they take on a total different tonality. Giving them an almost dark purple-ish color.
And when light is shined at them directly, the amber-ish tones can be more easily seen and mistaken for a reddish tint.
Reason being is that once inside the helmet, light is only allowed to pass through the lens in one direction and the dark interior does not let it reflect out.
The lenses were a different color in all 3 films.

Here's my ANH.
3642573.jpeg
 
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Well i belive YOU ALL ARE .... Colour blind!

Red, Pink, purple, amber, tinted black, black, amber with a hint of pink, pink with a hint of amber, Red with a hint of purple...

Its green! No doubt. :confused

:)hehehe
 
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