Constructing VERA : completed

[dr_slurpee]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Did you tell him to ram the parts up his butt? You should just walk away. When faced with not getting anything for the parts he'll probably play ball. Better for him to get what he originally quoted than lose all the money.

 

[Kadajiroth]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

That sucks, Joatrash! And dr_slurpee's right: walk away. I'd say he'll chase you up after a short while and offer the original price again.

Sorry to hear it. I have a feeling it's going to be resolved to your liking, though.

 

[Noeland]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Yeah, he's not the only machinist in the world man, I'm sure you can find a reasonable person to do the work!!

In the meantime you can always try the old "I got a quote from this person at this price, can you match it?" kind of thing. I mean at this point you gotta reach out for other quotes anyway, right?

Good luck to you. The project is certainly looking amazing so far.

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Thanks for the support guys. Yeah... I gave him an earful but it doesn't matter. Machinists (especially good ones) have absolutely no shortage of work these days... and getting CNC help is hardest. Most of them only want to do work for companies that can pay (and deduct) mega-bucks and not wierd one-off projects like this.

 

[pennausamike]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

When faced with not getting anything for the parts he'll probably play ball. Better for him to get what he originally quoted than lose all the money.

Uh....no. The machinist was a fool for bidding a job based on incomplete plans, BUT he would be a bigger fool to run the job for less than a third of his usual wage. How many of you would stay at work if one day you showed up and your boss said that today you'll only be paid 1/3 of a day's wage?

I'm still kinda pissed that I sold one of my all metal Jayne LeMats for $280 when I know that if you commissioned a shop to do a one-off it would cost about $600. While I was hoping for $350 plus, I recognized that I was doing work as part of a hobby, so I don't mind too much.
(Also, I used the money to buy and build an Inara "Trash" pistol, so I'm pretty happy, now!)

Point is, either find a CNC machinist who is doing hobby work for fun, or you'll have to accept that industrial machine work, especially carbide-tooled CNC work, is beastly expensive.

I spent twenty years working as a machinist and trust me, the majority are not getting rich. Like any field, some get a good break and some super contracts, but most are just blue-collar worker bees.

You know I support your projects. The key is finding a guy who is equally excited about the project, not a guy trying to pay his mortgage.

Mike

 

[dr_slurpee]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Uh....no. The machinist was a fool for bidding a job based on incomplete plans, BUT he would be a bigger fool to run the job for less than a third of his usual wage. How many of you would stay at work if one day you showed up and your boss said that today you'll only be paid 1/3 of a day's wage?

I don't think you understood my meaning, and trust me, I know all to well the difference between what people want to pay for machine shop time and what it can actually cost. I have faced that on almost every part I have machined.

Anyway, my understanding of the situation is that the guy gave a quote, they both agreed, he made the parts and then tried the make joatrash pay more cause it was more work than he thought. If the shop gave a quote on incomplete plans or just screwed up his quote, that's his problem not joatrash's. He can either sell them to joatrash for what was agreed on or joatrash can walk and he's out all the money and/or time he put into it...you can't just do the work then say "oh by the way, I want more money for it"

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

That is basically the way it is. He vastly underestimated how much needed to be CNCed and had planned to do most of the work on manual machines that weren't being used full-time on "regular" jobs. (He was going to do a lot of it in his spare time.) Sure... I can have some sympathy for that, which is why I offered to more than double my budget. But he definitely shouldn't have given me the "ok"... especially since I'd have to wait so long for it to get underway. The other leads I had before have now cooled considerably.

Uh....no. The machinist was a fool for bidding a job based on incomplete plans, BUT he would be a bigger fool to run the job for less than a third of his usual wage.

I've calmed down a bit now and am thinking a bit clearer. Damn it... I'm not giving up on this. I've got some ideas... it will get done... somehow.

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Actually... the parts have not been started on yet. That's what I've been waiting on all this time... for them to start making them! The price went up when he sat down and did calculations on how long each part would take.

But yeah... a promise is a promise.

he made the parts and then tried the make joatrash pay more

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Iiiinteresting news....

Ok guys... I've got another update for you. One that a few of you might go nuts over.

Now, during the day I've been messaging with another RPFer about an idea and I've spoken to the machinist again. I've long resisted the whole idea of doing a "run" of these parts, in large due to the enormous responsibility it would mean if I had to handle thousands upon thousands of other peoples' dollars. Also, as I said... I was first told that most of the work would be done on manual machines, which means that the cost of doing multiples would not be much less.

BUT

Now that lots more is going to be CNCed, doing more than one set actually becomes viable. (though this wasnt actually my idea) So, I have reconsidered (kind of).

The deal is this:
If I have two or three sets made, the machinist can probably do them for a price that I can live with. (I will have some final cost confirmations on monday, hopefully.) Since I really don't want to start looking for a new machinist (this one was hard to find and they've got some killer machines), I am willing to accept the responsibility of doing a maximum of two extra sets if anyone else is interested. Also note that this is only for the machined parts I've been showing you in this thread- you still need some additional bits and an AK/Saiga receiver (I'm using a Denix replica, but an airsoft or something might work). Now, the RPFer that suggested the idea has first dibs on set #2 but if anyone here is willing to get on board for #3 drop me a PM and we'll talk. I'm not looking to make money off this, only get my parts done at a price I can (barely) afford. Also, you should know that there is a potential cost of anything between or around $2000-2500, so please only PM me if you're willing to go that high. (The upside is of course that you will be one of very few people to have a Callahan replica.)

Finally... I can't promising anything yet. I still have some checking to do and I can't say for sure if I can manage one or two extra sets, depending on what I hear on monday, but if you're genuinely interested, let me know by PM or email: car:lolurbanchant.com


(note to mods: didn't know if I should put this in the JY or not seeing as it's not a signup for a regular "run" and the background surrounding it made more sense to put it here.)

 

[pennausamike]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Anyway, my understanding of the situation is that the guy gave a quote, they both agreed, he made the parts and then tried the make joatrash pay more cause it was more work than he thought. If the shop gave a quote on incomplete plans or just screwed up his quote, that's his problem not joatrash's. He can either sell them to joatrash for what was agreed on or joatrash can walk and he's out all the money and/or time he put into it...you can't just do the work then say "oh by the way, I want more money for it"

This is absolutely correct, but....

 

[pennausamike]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Actually... the parts have not been started on yet. That's what I've been waiting on all this time... for them to start making them! The price went up when he sat down and did calculations on how long each part would take.

But yeah... a promise is a promise.

.....the parts weren't made yet.
I know it is frustrating, but your machinist didn't (or shouldn't have) taken any of your money, yet. If he is tripling his estimate, it is likely that the original estimate wouldn't have even covered his costs. I don't know about Sweden, but here in the States carbide inserts cost $7 to $13 each, and Vera would likely require dozens; given the complexity of the shapes involved. Never mind the cost of 440 three phase or its European equivalent.

But yeah... a promise is a promise.

As an agreement between friends, yeah; but as a business decision where thousands of dollars lost are at issue, I can't agree.

Also, you should know that there is a potential cost of anything between or around $2000-2500,

At these rates, your machinist was looking at a loss of $4,000 to $5,000 on your project. In my experience, very few small businesses can afford to take a loss like that unless it will lead to major future business.

If he had taken your money already, he would either owe you the finished product or a full refund. At this point it seems that your only loss is the disappointment that you have invested time into a project that is simply not financially feasible.
(And you may well find the situation that makes your project possible.)

Mike

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

I'd rather not this turn into a big discussion as I want to move on and try to get this done, but I should clarify a couple of things.

First, he wouldn't be losing any four grand. The "2000-2500" cost was in fact my "doubled" budget offer plus (my wildly estimated) costs of shipping the parts to the USA or somewhere else. The actual discrepancy in our discussions is well under a grand. Also, he would not be losing any "income". The machinist who was going to do the actual work would have been doing most of it in his own free time so as to not disrupt their regular schedule. His miscalculation would have cost him time, not actual $. (yeah, yeah.. time is money I know...)

I am trying to reach some sort of compromise and adding another set or two looks like it might do the trick.

At these rates, your machinist was looking at a loss of $4,000 to $5,000 on your project. In my experience, very few small businesses can afford to take a loss like that unless it will lead to major future business.

If he had taken your money already, he would either owe you the finished product or a full refund. At this point it seems that your only loss is the disappointment that you have invested time into a project that is simply not financially feasible.
(And you may well find the situation that makes your project possible.)

Mike

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing... VERA! (and Jubal Early's pistol)

Crossing my fingers that I'll be moving towards a solution tomorrow, one way or the other.

In other news... take a Big Damn Gander at my shiny new WEBSITE documenting "Alice"!

It's still pretty basic, only one page and most of the info has been written here (though I've cleaned it up a bit). I didn't feel like choking peoples' web browsers with a bunch of flashy things right now, but I'll make it a little more elaborate later. It was mainly optimized for Firefox and I tried to stay away from using regular screengrabs and stuff. Please feel free to point out any glaring errors.

 

[Kadajiroth]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

Love the site. Thanks for documenting it for us who are thinking of making the same prop!

I spotted a couple of typing errors: first one was where it says "Jayne Cobb's Callahan Fullbore Autolock, with the customized trigger and double cartridge thorough-gage." in the second paragraph of the Intro, it should read "gauge", and the second one is right down the bottom where it says "Bid Damn Heroes", which I assume is supposed to read "Big".

Just pointing them out, but they're nothing to write home about.

Again, thanks for documenting your progress!

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

Thanks for spotting that Kaj, Too many late nights writing the stuff makes one really blind to it! I fixed the Heroes thing... but "gage" is an acceptable spelling. I actually had it spelled "gauge" at first, then I was reading the script for "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and there it was spelled without the "u". A quick check on dictionary.com seems to support it too. (If anyone is good at US grammar, feel free to chime in.)

Also... good news! Having two sets of parts done will bring the cost down to an acceptable level! Got it confirmed today. But I might not have the parts until Christmas. Since I was preparing for more bad news, I started the machinist-go-round again and incredibly enough came into contact with a couple more shops that are willing to look at the project. One of them was just a couple miles from my house and I didn't even know it existed.... I almost pass it every day when driving to work. Doh! I'm going to hold off for a few days and see how it all pans out. No sense in rushing things at this point. If I get it done locally I can go there often and follow the progress, which would be very good.

More news on the Early pistol too (can y'all tell I'm on vacation?):
I decided to redo the entire trigger-area of the gun cause it wasn't accurate enough. (I'll try to get a pic up as soon as it looks a little better.) Also went on a minor crusade to find brass piping for the barrels (I've decided to at least attempt build a few finished guns instead of making kits). I had to buy more than double what I needed and it wasn't cheap... but now at least I have it. (and I picked up some tubing for Alice's shell too)

Love the site. Thanks for documenting it for us who are thinking of making the same prop!

I spotted a couple of typing errors: first one was where it says "Jayne Cobb's Callahan Fullbore Autolock, with the customized trigger and double cartridge thorough-gage." in the second paragraph of the Intro, it should read "gauge", and the second one is right down the bottom where it says "Bid Damn Heroes", which I assume is supposed to read "Big".

Just pointing them out, but they're nothing to write home about.

Again, thanks for documenting your progress!

 

[oldzey]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

This thread just keeps getting better and better!

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

Hey all.

Time for a little update. Still waiting to hear back from a couple machinists about Vera. Still possibly doing two sets of parts. I can't do much more than wait for a few more days until I make some final decisions.

I've been doing some more solid work on my Early pistol master. Here's a pic of its current state (lying on an old version of my Vera stock blueprint):

Still lots to do on the shape of the main parts (doing it all by hand... ugh) and I've yet to start on the side greeblies and other small parts (gonna do that now). Splitting up the main body will hopefully (fingers crossed) allow a moving trigger of some sort. I also drilled the hole for the main barrel (can't see it in the pic) which was a nerve wracking experience since the core is made of balsa wood and thus very fragile. I'm making it so that it'll fit right into the Pachmayr grip as a real gun would.

That's all for now.

 

[Kadajiroth]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

Lookin' shiny, Joatrash!

 

[oldzey]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

Sweet! :thumbsup

Keep on Truckin'!

 

[JOATRASH FX]

Re: Constructing VERA! (and Early's pistol)

Getting there! Need to do some final cleanup and smooth 'er all out and construct a couple of small details. (barrel is just there for show) Lately I've been studying screen grabs as much as Mike's pics of the resin cast... there seem to be a few differences.

So far I'm rather pleased I didn't get this rapid prototyped... feels kinda nice to do a project completely from scratch. Will add the trigger and screw holes once I have a metal cast of it since I don't wanna risk damaging the master. Now I just gotta make sure that I don't screw up the mold making!