Carbon-Freeze Vader Saber...an MPP. The Definitive ESB
- Thread starter lonepigeon
- Start date
KL, that does indeed look like a pretty good wire match. I'm in the process of looking for my old TV remotes to see if I can yank something out of those...
BTW, I posted another chest control box for you on my original pics thread... I figured I could keep *that* separate from this thread...
http://rpf.prop-planet.com/viewtopic.php?topic=7719&forum=1
BTW, I posted another chest control box for you on my original pics thread... I figured I could keep *that* separate from this thread...
http://rpf.prop-planet.com/viewtopic.php?topic=7719&forum=1
Oohyeah KL
Well-Known Member
</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>jd pilot wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>KL, you're missing a red wire
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>
There's meant to be another red wire on the saber??!! WHy doesn't anyone tell me these things??!!!
There's meant to be another red wire on the saber??!! WHy doesn't anyone tell me these things??!!!
Oohyeah KL
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Ham!
No, it's not weathered - just some specks of plastic saw-dust which I didn't bother to get rid of before taking the pics (was rushing to work!
).
(Incidentally, that plastic saw-dust comes from an appendage I'm making to make my Vader arms longer so I can fix the fingers, thanks to all the grief people like you gave me when I posted my lifesize Vader pics last time!
)
OK, now to go look for that red wire JD was talking about...
No, it's not weathered - just some specks of plastic saw-dust which I didn't bother to get rid of before taking the pics (was rushing to work!
(Incidentally, that plastic saw-dust comes from an appendage I'm making to make my Vader arms longer so I can fix the fingers, thanks to all the grief people like you gave me when I posted my lifesize Vader pics last time!
OK, now to go look for that red wire JD was talking about...
E.D.C. Studios
Well-Known Member
Hmm...methinks the wire should be a bit on the thicker side. Doesnt it look like it should be a bit fatter in the pics?
I dont know wire gauges off the top of my head, but i am thinking a wire in thickness closer to about .125" something that would fit snug into the E port holes.
I dont know wire gauges off the top of my head, but i am thinking a wire in thickness closer to about .125" something that would fit snug into the E port holes.
Oohyeah KL
Well-Known Member
I think it's a pretty good match for the B&W and standee pics, but the CF pic looks much fatter, yes, even as if there were more than just that double-wire.
But then again, in that CF pic, even the red wire looks thick, so I think it's difficult to tell...
But then again, in that CF pic, even the red wire looks thick, so I think it's difficult to tell...
While rumaging through my SW boxes, I came across some of the old 4x6 trading cards. Unfortunately, years ago I had stored the very rare Vader photo, but here it is from ESB:
I'm having some trouble blowing it up, so if some one wants to download the photo and blow up the saber section, please feel free.
Hope this photo helps out.
I'm having some trouble blowing it up, so if some one wants to download the photo and blow up the saber section, please feel free.
Hope this photo helps out.
obiwankenobi77
New Member
I don't know about the black wire but the red wire I used is an 18 gauge I think and it fit perfect in the holes. I got it at OSH it cost $.10 for one foot
Right now I have a thicker black wire on my saber but I have not found a good match to the pics yet.
Brandon Montero
remylebeau@worldnet.att.net
Brandon Montero
remylebeau@worldnet.att.net
CE, I had a school folder (you know, the kind big enough to hold 8 1/2 x 11 paper) back in The Day with that pic on it. Man, I wish I knew where that was now...
It's funny, I remember staring at the Stormtrooper's blasters in that pic long and hard even back then... I think it was one of the only good pics I saw of the muzzles. Wow, the Prop Fanatacism Seed was planted long ago...
It's funny, I remember staring at the Stormtrooper's blasters in that pic long and hard even back then... I think it was one of the only good pics I saw of the muzzles. Wow, the Prop Fanatacism Seed was planted long ago...
Lots of good stuff here, but a note.
First, there was more then one saber used while filming ESB, there is not one 'Definitave' version. The crew would spend weeks building a set, shoot the scenes needed, and by the time they broke down that set and built a new one several weeks might have passed. King Sols were sold in England, and it may seem odd to us but the prop dept. was made up of more then one person. Someone said, "Why would they use MPP clamps on a King Sol?". Have you ever seen a King Sol Clamp? It does not have one, it used a large disk with a threaded rod to attach to the camera, of course you would have to use the MPP clamp. Also the shroud, the King Sol reflector attached to a flash-body mounted bracket, not a black shroud like the MPP or Heiland. Yes, the prop guys would have to take the clamp and shroud from a MPP. Why? I bet a non-working King Sol was pretty cheap to purchase in England in 1980 if you needed to put a Vader Saber together for a pick-up shot filmed after most of the principle photoghaphy was finished and the MPP saber was already packed-up and you didn't need the dueling version.
Second, the scenes of Vader on Hoth, in the Star Destroyer, the Carbon Chamber, and the Duel with Luke were filmed over a period of time with many people involved, and there were differend Sabers used for differend reasons. Remember the "I am you father" part, that was filmed in secret on a closed set with a minimal crew. There was not ONE saber used for everything seen onscreen.
After filming was finished in England, and most of the cast and crew arrived back in California, that's where promotional photos were taken. Again, different sabers were probably used, the shot of Vader with the two Stormtroopers behind him with the red background was blown-up on the lightsaberreplicas.com web site and shown to be a Heiland due to the lettering of words (Heiland, slave, etc...) on the chrome body and not the MPP letters.
The button on the King Sol can also be added to a Heiland flash in place of the black plactic button usually seen on the square-vent-hole version, not the synchronar. Heres how you tell. If your end-cap screws on, you have a Heiland with either a King-Sol or Life Camera chrome button added for the black plastic Heiland button. Hey, back in the day (1940's-1960's) camera shops carried replacement/upgrade parts for camera items just like auto parts stores carry replacement gas cap covers for your car. Working photographers actually changed and modified their cameras because they used them everyday and prefered different things. A real King Sol has a 1/4 turn friction end-cap, the spring and batteries hold the end cap on and not threads. Due to the lack of threads, the end-cap is bright shinny chrome and would reflect light really good, just like the photo of the Carbon Chamber saber shown all the way to the end-cap at the turned angle photo.
I believe, and eventhough I have read EVERY POST on this thread, that an MPP with wires and black-side-out clamp bars was used in most scenes on the movie, the Carbon Chamber Saber was a King Sol with the actual tiny black button removed from the chrome button assembly and all the MPP stuff added. Everyone has been comparing secondary photos, promotional photos, and photos of Sabers used on different scenes of ESB with the Carbon Chamber Saber photo, and that is not right. They are different Sabers, and the Carbon Chamber Saber is a King Sol. I believe it was made for pick-up shots, or was made due to the MPP not being available due to time. Call my crazy, but their are 2 different Luke ESB Sabers, the Hero version and the Dagobah/SW Ranch version, and the reason is the film shoting schedule and availability of props used.
I will get photos of my King Sol as soon as I can and get them posted, but I will need someone to host the photos for me.
First, there was more then one saber used while filming ESB, there is not one 'Definitave' version. The crew would spend weeks building a set, shoot the scenes needed, and by the time they broke down that set and built a new one several weeks might have passed. King Sols were sold in England, and it may seem odd to us but the prop dept. was made up of more then one person. Someone said, "Why would they use MPP clamps on a King Sol?". Have you ever seen a King Sol Clamp? It does not have one, it used a large disk with a threaded rod to attach to the camera, of course you would have to use the MPP clamp. Also the shroud, the King Sol reflector attached to a flash-body mounted bracket, not a black shroud like the MPP or Heiland. Yes, the prop guys would have to take the clamp and shroud from a MPP. Why? I bet a non-working King Sol was pretty cheap to purchase in England in 1980 if you needed to put a Vader Saber together for a pick-up shot filmed after most of the principle photoghaphy was finished and the MPP saber was already packed-up and you didn't need the dueling version.
Second, the scenes of Vader on Hoth, in the Star Destroyer, the Carbon Chamber, and the Duel with Luke were filmed over a period of time with many people involved, and there were differend Sabers used for differend reasons. Remember the "I am you father" part, that was filmed in secret on a closed set with a minimal crew. There was not ONE saber used for everything seen onscreen.
After filming was finished in England, and most of the cast and crew arrived back in California, that's where promotional photos were taken. Again, different sabers were probably used, the shot of Vader with the two Stormtroopers behind him with the red background was blown-up on the lightsaberreplicas.com web site and shown to be a Heiland due to the lettering of words (Heiland, slave, etc...) on the chrome body and not the MPP letters.
The button on the King Sol can also be added to a Heiland flash in place of the black plactic button usually seen on the square-vent-hole version, not the synchronar. Heres how you tell. If your end-cap screws on, you have a Heiland with either a King-Sol or Life Camera chrome button added for the black plastic Heiland button. Hey, back in the day (1940's-1960's) camera shops carried replacement/upgrade parts for camera items just like auto parts stores carry replacement gas cap covers for your car. Working photographers actually changed and modified their cameras because they used them everyday and prefered different things. A real King Sol has a 1/4 turn friction end-cap, the spring and batteries hold the end cap on and not threads. Due to the lack of threads, the end-cap is bright shinny chrome and would reflect light really good, just like the photo of the Carbon Chamber saber shown all the way to the end-cap at the turned angle photo.
I believe, and eventhough I have read EVERY POST on this thread, that an MPP with wires and black-side-out clamp bars was used in most scenes on the movie, the Carbon Chamber Saber was a King Sol with the actual tiny black button removed from the chrome button assembly and all the MPP stuff added. Everyone has been comparing secondary photos, promotional photos, and photos of Sabers used on different scenes of ESB with the Carbon Chamber Saber photo, and that is not right. They are different Sabers, and the Carbon Chamber Saber is a King Sol. I believe it was made for pick-up shots, or was made due to the MPP not being available due to time. Call my crazy, but their are 2 different Luke ESB Sabers, the Hero version and the Dagobah/SW Ranch version, and the reason is the film shoting schedule and availability of props used.
I will get photos of my King Sol as soon as I can and get them posted, but I will need someone to host the photos for me.
This has already been hashed out to death. There are MANY reasons given here why it wasn't a King Sol so I wont go through them again. Again it isn't a King Sol it's an MPP, the reasons are all posted here.
Also your assement that there had to be more than one saber is wrong. In ANH there was from what can be told only one "Hero" and one "Stunt" of each saber. Also in "Phantom Menace there was only one "Hero" made of each saber. Even in ESB there were two Solo/Luke "hero" blasters that were swaped back and forth (maybe one was firing and the other wasn't). The reason there was no hero Vader in RoTJ (the one there's pics of every where is a "stunt" saber) is because the Hero from ESB was stollen. If there had been more than one hero I think they would have had one left for RoTJ.
You need to re-read the posts carfully there are Too many details that point to it being an MPP, No plate around the suposed "button", The Ports are visible under the "button" the little screws under the shroud that hold the guts in (the prop makers would NOT have bothered recreating this detail on a King Sol) and the fact that the "button" is in the exact location of the wires. Also the Carbon Freeze saber has the same calc'bubles as the other pics, which is a relic left over from when the flash was (probably) used in ANH, those bubbles don't show up in any other prop in the movie, and I really doubt they would have hunted them down for this saber (they didn't bother for Lukes why would they for Vaders?).
You really don't need to post pics of your King Sol, there's already several pics in this thread.
Not to sound like a dick, but can we not rehash this whole subject? It was exasperating figuring all this out then having to re-explain it all only to come to the same conclusions, I don't think it needs to be gone over again.
It's an MPP, I personaly think all the pics are of the SAME MPP, but then that's anopther thread altogether (At a later date maybe
)
~Paul
Also your assement that there had to be more than one saber is wrong. In ANH there was from what can be told only one "Hero" and one "Stunt" of each saber. Also in "Phantom Menace there was only one "Hero" made of each saber. Even in ESB there were two Solo/Luke "hero" blasters that were swaped back and forth (maybe one was firing and the other wasn't). The reason there was no hero Vader in RoTJ (the one there's pics of every where is a "stunt" saber) is because the Hero from ESB was stollen. If there had been more than one hero I think they would have had one left for RoTJ.
You need to re-read the posts carfully there are Too many details that point to it being an MPP, No plate around the suposed "button", The Ports are visible under the "button" the little screws under the shroud that hold the guts in (the prop makers would NOT have bothered recreating this detail on a King Sol) and the fact that the "button" is in the exact location of the wires. Also the Carbon Freeze saber has the same calc'bubles as the other pics, which is a relic left over from when the flash was (probably) used in ANH, those bubbles don't show up in any other prop in the movie, and I really doubt they would have hunted them down for this saber (they didn't bother for Lukes why would they for Vaders?).
You really don't need to post pics of your King Sol, there's already several pics in this thread.
Not to sound like a dick, but can we not rehash this whole subject? It was exasperating figuring all this out then having to re-explain it all only to come to the same conclusions, I don't think it needs to be gone over again.
It's an MPP, I personaly think all the pics are of the SAME MPP, but then that's anopther thread altogether (At a later date maybe
~Paul
Oohyeah KL
Well-Known Member
Yeah, what Paul said.
James, you really need to read through the posts again which set out the NUMEROUS reasons why it isn't a King Sol, and reasons deal directly and specifically at the CF pic.
If you had said that it was a Heiland with something else in the port holes, you might have got more mileage, but there's absolutely NOTHING to support it being a KS apart from what **looks** like a round button thingy, with TONS of reasons to indicate why it does not match a KS. AGain, you really need to re-read the posts a bit more carefully.
But I do find it interesting what you pointed out about the lightsaberreplicas.com site - that the saber in the Vader-with-2-trooper pic is said to be a Heiland. This is what's shown on the site:
I think the logic used in that site is that you can see the Heiland Synchronar lettering? As you can see, this is the same pic (or at least, the same saber) shown in the PoSW pic. In the PoSW pic it's alot clearer that it's an MPP. The bits which look like lettering in the pic above seems to be a combination of the MPP lettering, the rivet hole, and jpeg compression effects.
Also, the endcap is a dead giveaway. Heilands' endcaps do not go so deep.
(Lastly, you should bear in mind that the LSR.com person has a vested interest in having people believe that the saber is a Heiland, given how much he is charging people for conversion.)
James, you really need to read through the posts again which set out the NUMEROUS reasons why it isn't a King Sol, and reasons deal directly and specifically at the CF pic.
If you had said that it was a Heiland with something else in the port holes, you might have got more mileage, but there's absolutely NOTHING to support it being a KS apart from what **looks** like a round button thingy, with TONS of reasons to indicate why it does not match a KS. AGain, you really need to re-read the posts a bit more carefully.
But I do find it interesting what you pointed out about the lightsaberreplicas.com site - that the saber in the Vader-with-2-trooper pic is said to be a Heiland. This is what's shown on the site:
I think the logic used in that site is that you can see the Heiland Synchronar lettering? As you can see, this is the same pic (or at least, the same saber) shown in the PoSW pic. In the PoSW pic it's alot clearer that it's an MPP. The bits which look like lettering in the pic above seems to be a combination of the MPP lettering, the rivet hole, and jpeg compression effects.
Also, the endcap is a dead giveaway. Heilands' endcaps do not go so deep.
(Lastly, you should bear in mind that the LSR.com person has a vested interest in having people believe that the saber is a Heiland, given how much he is charging people for conversion.)
No, you guys don't sould like jerks, but yes, I do know how to read, and look at pictures and have the ability to understand the information and make decisions on what is presented. I did spend about 3 hours carefully reading EVERY post and looking at every picture, and yes, I am smart enough to understand all the information. I actually did learn alot I did not know, and I have been into lightsaber research and building for almost 3 years. I learned today all about the red and black wires in the MPP, which I did not know about, and the replacement of the MPP clamp lever with the brass screw and nut, which I was also not aware of. I now, as a result of this thread, have the ability to make a more accurate version of an MPP ESB saber, wires in port holes and all.
But, I was also not present on the set for filming of ESB, and neither were most of the people here. We all spend time looking at bad and sometimes tiny photos of film props that we hold in much higher regard then most of the folks involved in the movie did. We lack Lucas, or on the property masters from ESB comming here and telling exactly what was used and providing us with 360* photos of each and every prop used. We look, and make our own decisions. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are wrong, and the down side is we, the prop building community may never know for sure. So, We do what we think is right.
No, I do not have 20 King Sols in my basement that I want to sell on e-bay, and I am trying to keep the price high. If I could afford 20 flashes, I would have bought a real MPP for $1000+ instead of the beautiful replica from Larbel.
I only stated my opinion. My opinion is that yes, in most of ESB the Saber used was the MPP with either longer grips or a lowered clamp, with bubbles, black side out, with wires in the port holes. Are you happy? I admitted that. I do have the ESB storybook, and after reading the thread and looking at all the photos, and looking at the storybook again, and going back and looking at several of the photos again, I personally believe that for at least several shots in that scene only, it's a King Sol. Yes, I plan to make 2 versions, the 'correct' MPP version, and the 'incorrect' King Sol version. And since my Lightsaber collection will in no way change the world, or change world peace, or be seen by Lucas or anyone at LFL since I live in Texas, and I guess I can live with everyone in the Lightsaber prop community laughing at me behind my back for having an incorrect, stupid version that was never used, I still think it was a King Sol. I do. You don't have to believe it, or make one, because props are great but they are just props. Last time I checked my bitchen Luke Graflex ANH Saber didn't help anyone win the Gold in the Olympics, I guess I will display my incorrect version with pride because I followed my gut and made a saber I can be proud of. You can think I'm stupid for what I think, but if the tables were turned I would at least respect you for going with what you believe.
But, I was also not present on the set for filming of ESB, and neither were most of the people here. We all spend time looking at bad and sometimes tiny photos of film props that we hold in much higher regard then most of the folks involved in the movie did. We lack Lucas, or on the property masters from ESB comming here and telling exactly what was used and providing us with 360* photos of each and every prop used. We look, and make our own decisions. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are wrong, and the down side is we, the prop building community may never know for sure. So, We do what we think is right.
No, I do not have 20 King Sols in my basement that I want to sell on e-bay, and I am trying to keep the price high. If I could afford 20 flashes, I would have bought a real MPP for $1000+ instead of the beautiful replica from Larbel.
I only stated my opinion. My opinion is that yes, in most of ESB the Saber used was the MPP with either longer grips or a lowered clamp, with bubbles, black side out, with wires in the port holes. Are you happy? I admitted that. I do have the ESB storybook, and after reading the thread and looking at all the photos, and looking at the storybook again, and going back and looking at several of the photos again, I personally believe that for at least several shots in that scene only, it's a King Sol. Yes, I plan to make 2 versions, the 'correct' MPP version, and the 'incorrect' King Sol version. And since my Lightsaber collection will in no way change the world, or change world peace, or be seen by Lucas or anyone at LFL since I live in Texas, and I guess I can live with everyone in the Lightsaber prop community laughing at me behind my back for having an incorrect, stupid version that was never used, I still think it was a King Sol. I do. You don't have to believe it, or make one, because props are great but they are just props. Last time I checked my bitchen Luke Graflex ANH Saber didn't help anyone win the Gold in the Olympics, I guess I will display my incorrect version with pride because I followed my gut and made a saber I can be proud of. You can think I'm stupid for what I think, but if the tables were turned I would at least respect you for going with what you believe.
Sorry, also, the only reason I was going to post pictures of my King Sol is because I have never seen one like mine. OOHYEAH's is different then mine, as well as the one posted back several pages. Mine is different. I offered beacuse I thought we were supposed to post pics to help gather information have discussions. I didn't realize this was a King Sol witch hunt.
JK 1138,
Hey, I understand where you're coming from. I was a "non-believer" for some time but even I was convinced. I converted a King Sol as well and believe me, I'm not thrilled at its sudden devaluation.
The fact of the matter is that if you really look at the reference photos you WILL see the illusion of a button. Let's face it, the CF shot sucks. The colors are bad and by the time you blow the saber up enough to see details it gets kinda fuzzy... but it's ALL we had to go on.
Paul N had a great photo (I believe there's a link to it back there somewhere) where he outlined the wires in the CF shot. Once you see them as such, you will "look beyond the button"... so to speak.
I don't wish to beat this to death... your point of multiple sabers for multiple shoots is valid - just look at the Han ANH blaster variants. But when you compare the various pics (of equally various quality) of this saber, the details DO match... they're the same.
Hey, I understand where you're coming from. I was a "non-believer" for some time but even I was convinced. I converted a King Sol as well and believe me, I'm not thrilled at its sudden devaluation.
The fact of the matter is that if you really look at the reference photos you WILL see the illusion of a button. Let's face it, the CF shot sucks. The colors are bad and by the time you blow the saber up enough to see details it gets kinda fuzzy... but it's ALL we had to go on.
Paul N had a great photo (I believe there's a link to it back there somewhere) where he outlined the wires in the CF shot. Once you see them as such, you will "look beyond the button"... so to speak.
I don't wish to beat this to death... your point of multiple sabers for multiple shoots is valid - just look at the Han ANH blaster variants. But when you compare the various pics (of equally various quality) of this saber, the details DO match... they're the same.
James, Im sorry , I did get a bit
touchy in my last post. I too was jsut standing by my belief. I don't think your stupid in any way shape or form for wanting to make a vader from a King Sol. I still don't believe there was one used and I feel the info here backs that up, but if you want to make one that's great! I have two Vaders I made from Hieland Press flashes (with square holes), though incorect I still love 'em.
Your right these are just props and it's easy to forget that.
Again I'm sorry to have come down on ya that hard, I'll PM ya with more.
~Paul
Your right these are just props and it's easy to forget that.
Again I'm sorry to have come down on ya that hard, I'll PM ya with more.
~Paul
