Bandai 1/72 Red Squadron

[Analyzer]

Quick question -- is the yellow you used more of a chromate yellow or an insignia yellow?

The exact yellow I used was P3 Moldy Ochre ( I may have added in a small bit of white) plus I did mist coat over it with a mix of the base coat (Tamiya Flat White and Deck Tan)

So I guess more like insignia yellow which them gets faded a bit with a mist coat?

I actually painted it on with a a brush. You probably could airbrush them on, but I never tried since you can hide the brush strokes if you are careful when painting it and use the right consistency

Same with the red striping except I used P3 Skorne Red. One thing I do to help the re go on better is do a first layer of moldy ochre it covers over the white base better without streaking, then do a layer of the red

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

The problem is they're very close. The insignia yellow just has slightly less of a greenish tinge to it. Your weathering knocks down the "sunniness" of your yellow enough it makes me think of the duller color I see on the originals -- but I don't know how much of that is bad/old photo quality. For comparison, here are the two I'm referring to:

Distance haze isn't a thing in space, so "scaling" color isn't needed... but it suuuuuuure looks wrong when one doesn't. When I knock insignia yellow down enough it looks so much like yellow chromate I might as well have just started with that one. Your moldy ochre looks like a darker in-between hue to the ones I posted.

 

[Analyzer]

The problem is they're very close. The insignia yellow just has slightly less of a greenish tinge to it. Your weathering knocks down the "sunniness" of your yellow enough it makes me think of the duller color I see on the originals -- but I don't know how much of that is bad/old photo quality. For comparison, here are the two I'm referring to:

View attachment 1432930View attachment 1432931
Distance haze isn't a thing in space, so "scaling" color isn't needed... but it suuuuuuure looks wrong when one doesn't. When I knock insignia yellow down enough it looks so much like yellow chromate I might as well have just started with that one. Your moldy ochre looks like a darker in-between hue to the ones I posted.

I think the "warmer" insignia yellow is probably the best to start with if your going to fade it or mix in some white. Skipping the fading though as you pointed out, the other might be better Although the other one feels like it has a bit of green in it and seems like a "cooler" color compared to the warmness of the other. That actually would be a good color for the Clone Wars era yellow markings as they are a yellow with a hint of green. You could always try comparing them with the Archive-X colors and see which is closer?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

That's a good call. I know, back in the day, they mainly used PollyScale and Floquil military and railroad paints. I know from working on my Mandalorian armor that... Nnngg... One of the yellows -- it was either Reefer Yellow or UP Armor Yellow -- that was used on ESB Boba is so close to the color of actual zinc chromate aviation primer that I can't see any difference side by side. Caboose is the brighter red used on Boba's helmet -- I want to see how that looks as the squadron markings for Red Group. You've also given me an idea for seeing how Insignia Yellow looks on a zinc chromate background, and what I might do to better isolate the former as squadron markings.

Reason I'm speculating on zinc chromate as a base color, apart from it being a real-world aviation primer, is it's the base color of Red Leader's helmet. Since the ANH helmets got reused in the subsequent films, I treat the markings as unit markings, like this:

...vis-a-vis their planes...

So for one of my big projects, I'm turning my goofy-scale* 2002 Hasbro POTF2 Red Five (the first version of the big X-Wing they did) into a conjectural Rarified Air Cavalry late-model Z-95, inspired by Red Leader's helmet.

[*The Kenner/Hasbro action figures are 1:18 scale. The vehicles have always been underscaled, but several times over the years they've tried to get at least closer to proportional. This X-Wing, though, is closer to Studio Scale -- 1:24 -- with the engines more like 1:30. So rather than dump time, money, and elbow grease into trying to correct all that to make it either accurately 1:18 or 1:24, I'm using it as a base to make a 1:18 late-model Z-95 -- where INCOM first rolled out the sort of S-foils that would get used on the T-65. I have a lot more freedom this way.]

Probably something like the centennial markings for the Red Devils:

I've wibbled over all-over paintjobs, like on Anakin's Y-Wing in Clone Wars. It's space. They obviously don't care about camouflage, or they'd paint their fighters matte midnight blue. There are only so many naturally-occurring chemical elements. Most past the mid-90s (so far) are lab-created and break down to lighter elements pretty quickly. So presuming alloys or composites of elements we know many of the properties of... Zinc chromate (yellow or green) protects titanium, aluminum, and steel. The only light-gray metal primers I've run across are rust-inhibitors, which means iron-containing materials, and all of them terrestrial, rather than aviation.

So if the gray on the X-Wing or Millennium Falcon or TIE Fighter isn't a bare primer layer, why paint a small spacecraft in a light, light-reflective shade like that? Is it for something like why NASA uses their white coatings -- for thermal regulation? Don't they have advanced enough systems in the GFFA that they don't need such basic tech? Or would it be a matter of "Hey, it works -- why not?"

So I get down to the question of: Are the yellow panels on these various X-Wings N.O.S., unused, with only a chromate-like primer coating on them? Or are they scavenged from a couple downchecked craft that had an all-over-yellow paint job, over the light-gray thermocoat? Or is the gray an aesthetically-relevant basecoat color, for reasons, and would that make yellow a similarly-relevant basecoat layer?

If the yellow was more chromate-like, I'd consider making those RAC X-Wings. But, as you point out, it's closer to Insignia Yellow. So, if I do an all-over-yellow basecoat, maybe it'd work for the Tierfon Yellow Aces:

I've already put together a partmap of where the yellow panels on the Red Group fighters are located (never mind duplicates) to see where I have left over for those potential red markings. I'll scan it and see what your ideas are.

 

[Analyzer]

That's a good call. I know, back in the day, they mainly used PollyScale and Floquil military and railroad paints. I know from working on my Mandalorian armor that... Nnngg... One of the yellows -- it was either Reefer Yellow or UP Armor Yellow -- that was used on ESB Boba is so close to the color of actual zinc chromate aviation primer that I can't see any difference side by side. Caboose is the brighter red used on Boba's helmet -- I want to see how that looks as the squadron markings for Red Group. You've also given me an idea for seeing how Insignia Yellow looks on a zinc chromate background, and what I might do to better isolate the former as squadron markings.

Reason I'm speculating on zinc chromate as a base color, apart from it being a real-world aviation primer, is it's the base color of Red Leader's helmet. Since the ANH helmets got reused in the subsequent films, I treat the markings as unit markings, like this:

View attachment 1433211
View attachment 1433212

...vis-a-vis their planes...

View attachment 1433213

So for one of my big projects, I'm turning my goofy-scale* 2002 Hasbro POTF2 Red Five (the first version of the big X-Wing they did) into a conjectural Rarified Air Cavalry late-model Z-95, inspired by Red Leader's helmet.

[*The Kenner/Hasbro action figures are 1:18 scale. The vehicles have always been underscaled, but several times over the years they've tried to get at least closer to proportional. This X-Wing, though, is closer to Studio Scale -- 1:24 -- with the engines more like 1:30. So rather than dump time, money, and elbow grease into trying to correct all that to make it either accurately 1:18 or 1:24, I'm using it as a base to make a 1:18 late-model Z-95 -- where INCOM first rolled out the sort of S-foils that would get used on the T-65. I have a lot more freedom this way.]

Probably something like the centennial markings for the Red Devils:

View attachment 1433214

I've wibbled over all-over paintjobs, like on Anakin's Y-Wing in Clone Wars. It's space. They obviously don't care about camouflage, or they'd paint their fighters matte midnight blue. There are only so many naturally-occurring chemical elements. Most past the mid-90s (so far) are lab-created and break down to lighter elements pretty quickly. So presuming alloys or composites of elements we know many of the properties of... Zinc chromate (yellow or green) protects titanium, aluminum, and steel. The only light-gray metal primers I've run across are rust-inhibitors, which means iron-containing materials, and all of them terrestrial, rather than aviation.

So if the gray on the X-Wing or Millennium Falcon or TIE Fighter isn't a bare primer layer, why paint a small spacecraft in a light, light-reflective shade like that? Is it for something like why NASA uses their white coatings -- for thermal regulation? Don't they have advanced enough systems in the GFFA that they don't need such basic tech? Or would it be a matter of "Hey, it works -- why not?"

So I get down to the question of: Are the yellow panels on these various X-Wings N.O.S., unused, with only a chromate-like primer coating on them? Or are they scavenged from a couple downchecked craft that had an all-over-yellow paint job, over the light-gray thermocoat? Or is the gray an aesthetically-relevant basecoat color, for reasons, and would that make yellow a similarly-relevant basecoat layer?

If the yellow was more chromate-like, I'd consider making those RAC X-Wings. But, as you point out, it's closer to Insignia Yellow. So, if I do an all-over-yellow basecoat, maybe it'd work for the Tierfon Yellow Aces:

View attachment 1433215

I've already put together a partmap of where the yellow panels on the Red Group fighters are located (never mind duplicates) to see where I have left over for those potential red markings. I'll scan it and see what your ideas are.

I love the jolly roger scheme for planes!

It is a cool idea to create the Z-95 based on Red Leader's helmet

I would like to see what you come up with for the yellow markings

I think there might have been two different color markings maybe? I forgot to mention that earlier. I do remember using a different Yellow for Luke's stripe. The Yellow stripe on the top on Luke's X-Wing I think is more similar to the Chromium Yellow where the Yellow canopy or the yellow wing markings are more like the Insignia Yellow

I think some of the yellow panels are definitely for decorative purposes, especially on the wing
For example, this picture of the Red 2 filming model (previously Blue Leader before the repaint), the yellow wing markings seem to be a part of the scheme rather than replacement panels or whatever.

In fact what I might suggest, is this might be a representation of the standard scheme of red/yellow (if you were to clean up the dirt and not accounting for the number of red stripes)

Or maybe it is possible that like the original model's paint scheme, this X-Wing was part of Blue Squadron and given to Red Squadron as a
replacement and had the red painted over the blue without changing anything else

Other X-Wings have similar panels on the wings but in the case of red 5 they are grey

Then other X-Wings like Red 3 probably had parts of that original scheme either painted/repaired over and some of those

and basically through the process of acquiring second hand fighters and shifting supplies you start to get all sorts of crossovers and what not with the only paint scheme maintenance being kept up with was to standardize red vs blue vs green etc... for the main markings on the wings and fuselage sides

I would love to see what a "fresh off the line" squadron might look like

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I think there might have been two different color markings maybe? I forgot to mention that earlier. I do remember using a different Yellow for Luke's stripe. The Yellow stripe on the top on Luke's X-Wing I think is more similar to the Chromium Yellow where the Yellow canopy or the yellow wing markings are more like the Insignia Yellow

Useful. I need to finish sorting my reference library and take another look. I would definitely like your take on the yellows on each craft they appear on -- you've done the deep delve more recently, for this project. Going through the eight known paint schemes (Reds 1, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, pyro and hero for Red 3, and omitting Red 2, as explained below) to call out which seem to be primed replacements and which seem to be scavenged painted panels from a yellow fighter could also help preliminary notions for how to do the layouts for the one remaining unseen craft (Red 9 or 11, depending on whether you use the Red 3 pyro scheme for the other), so it looks like it belongs with the rest.

I think some of the yellow panels are definitely for decorative purposes, especially on the wing
For example, this picture of the Red 2 filming model (previously Blue Leader before the repaint), the yellow wing markings seem to be a part of the scheme rather than replacement panels or whatever.

In fact what I might suggest, is this might be a representation of the standard scheme of red/yellow (if you were to clean up the dirt and not accounting for the number of red stripes)

Or maybe it is possible that like the original model's paint scheme, this X-Wing was part of Blue Squadron and given to Red Squadron as a
replacement and had the red painted over the blue without changing anything else

Thank you fro dragging my attention back to the Red 2 model. So much going on there I'd forgotten about. I largely agree with you. In the time it's percolated in the back of my head, with what I've learned of the real-world process of making the films since overlaid, I think my current take is that Wedge's ship was part of Gold Squadron and then got shifted to Red. To get a sense of its original colors, I'd suggest removing the red markings entirely. I'd say the yellow on the fuselage originally ran all the way down to the nose, but many of those panels got replaced. Possibly/probably when it got moved to Red and given to Wedge.

That leads into a persistent irk of mine. The Gold Squadron ships have no analogue of the wing hatchmarks in Red to serve as visual craft ID. Might they have had such on the engine nacelle outer plating that's been removed? Which also makes me think of how the smaller, rear portion of the X-Wing engines looks like they've had an outer casing removed, too. Maybe in its former life, Wedge's ship had its callsign position indicated on its engines, too...?

Other X-Wings have similar panels on the wings but in the case of red 5 they are grey

That plays in nicely with my last couple posts' worth of suppositions. The light gray on most of the spacecraft we see is a thermocoat, and the markings go over that. The darker gray panels I'd say are either a primer over the thermocoat (which, in turn, is applied over the zinc chromate primer over bare metal), for squadron markings to be applied to... a neutral color painted over old squadron colors prior to painting the differently-shaped red markings on (although why this wasn't done on Wedge's ship, I couldn't say -- in a hurry?)... or possibly an indicator of a Grey Squadron prior to ROTJ, with a marking scheme similar to Gold.

Leads me to also wonder which style of markings means what. In the real world, nation affiliation markings go here, unit identification number goes here, individual craft ID goes here, radio callsign goes here, squadron markings fit these requirements and are displayed here, here, and here... Since the Y-Wings are older, and since, in my sticking-with-George's-actual-original-intent interpretation is that many of those craft (and their pilots) were very recently Imperial... Maybe the wing banding and central swath seen on Red 2 are the Imperial versions of the Markings, and the side stripes with hatchmarked 'L' is the old Republic Navy version.

 

[Analyzer]

Lots of great points and things to consider!

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I am so frustrated so much of the reference is so grainy and poorly-lit. *lol* Do you know how reliable the color breakdowns I've seen posted are? Insignia Red, Dunkelgelb 1942, Aggressor Gray, Gunship Gray, etc....?

 

[Hagoth]

Man, gotta get caught up here! This is really an awesome project. Tons of great insight and background chatter and really good modeling to go with it.

 

[Analyzer]

I am so frustrated so much of the reference is so grainy and poorly-lit. *lol* Do you know how reliable the color breakdowns I've seen posted are? Insignia Red, Dunkelgelb 1942, Aggressor Gray, Gunship Gray, etc....?

Yeah, there is some pretty shoddy references for some of the X-Wings

As far as accuracy of the colors, I do not know myself. The Archive-X stuff is well researched and if I was just starting out I probably would go that route, but I have much invested in Tamiya, Vallejo and P3 paints I don't need even more paints.

My go to base for Star Wars stuff has been Tamiya Flat White mixed with Deck Tan and/or XF-19 (Sky Grey) for most rebel stuff.

Man, gotta get caught up here! This is really an awesome project. Tons of great insight and background chatter and really good modeling to go with it.

thanks, and also thanks thud83 and Inquisitor Peregrinus among others for sparking the insightful chatter

 

[starks]

This has been a fantastic read. You're definitely making a top job of those X-wings Analyzer.
So if I understand correctly your going to build all 12? Or were a few missing from the squadron?
Cheers,
Josh

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

This has been a fantastic read. You're definitely making a top job of those X-wings Analyzer.
So if I understand correctly your going to build all 12? Or were a few missing from the squadron?
Cheers,
Josh

It got pretty dense a couple pages back, but the short of it is that there were "hero" models completed for Reds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, and 12. There was also a differently-painted pyro model for Red 3, which Analyzer is going to use to stand in for one of the missing ships (9). There is dialogue in the script attributed to Reds 7, 9, and 11, in addition to the models represented, above. The only one missing-missing is Red 8. By using the pyro Red 3 scheme for Red 9, that leaves 7 and 11 to figure out. At my suggestion that the Y-Wing at the end of ANH flying away from the Death Star with Luke and Wedge is a Red Group ship, and the rest of the surviving Rebel fighters were already outbound and are behind the camera, he's jumped on-board with the idea of making it Red 7 and using the "Red Jammer" paint scheme.

Which still leaves him with having to make up Red 11 from whole cloth.

 

[Hagoth]

It got pretty dense a couple pages back, but the short of it is that there were "hero" models completed for Reds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, and 12. There was also a differently-painted pyro model for Red 3, which Analyzer is going to use to stand in for one of the missing ships (9). There is dialogue in the script attributed to Reds 7, 9, and 11, in addition to the models represented, above. The only one missing-missing is Red 8. By using the pyro Red 3 scheme for Red 9, that leaves 7 and 11 to figure out. At my suggestion that the Y-Wing at the end of ANH flying away from the Death Star with Luke and Wedge is a Red Group ship, and the rest of the surviving Rebel fighters were already outbound and are behind the camera, he's jumped on-board with the idea of making it Red 7 and using the "Red Jammer" paint scheme.

Which still leaves him with having to make up Red 11 from whole cloth.

...and he who does Red 11 first sets the standard. With the combined input of the community here and Analyzers skill there is a solid bet it will be a good one.

And then the whole squadron can fly in the missing man formation for poor missing Red 8. Would it make sense for Red 8 to be a Y-Wing like proposed for Red 7?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

And then the whole squadron can fly in the missing man formation for poor missing Red 8. Would it make sense for Red 8 to be a Y-Wing like proposed for Red 7?

*shrug* Absence of data. Star Wars has, unfortunately, been largely a game of Telephone/Whispers since the original film came out. More and more misinterpretations, misrememberings, bad continuity, and sloppy writing mean that I (at least -- others' may, and often do, care about such things far less than I do) have to more and more carefully pick and choose elements from later films, books, TV series, and games that fit with the original material... and try to fudge or have to flat-out ignore stuff that doesn't work. So many of the people working at Lucasfilm since the Prequels grew up on the EU, the contributors to which showed an appalling tendency to not do their homework, reference original sources, interview the people who did the thing for the OT, etc., to get clear on things before blundering forward. I could (and have) write one of my patented mini-essays here about all the mistakes that have crept in over the years. They are... *sigh* ...distressingly numerous.

My take is that the Red 8 craft was grounded. The battle came on them pretty suddenly. Possibly the pilot was out of commission, too. There is no reference to or line from Red 8 in the script, and no model painted up as such. Luke took up an already-extant Red 5. If the pilot of Red 8 was available, the squad leader would probably have preferred to go with a known quantity. If Red 8 was flyable, they'd probably have picked some other experienced pilot or promising rookie to stick in it. The pilots for Reds 5 and 8 may be dead, they may not. The Red 8 craft may be destroyed, or just down an engine. Rogue One is not a good, reliable source for information on the squadron or its pilots. The EU has given us a plethora of pilots for the unseen callsigns, and a plethora of names for the ones who were seen but not named in script or credits. And then Rogue One even gave us a Red 5 who got blowed up real good. But the ship Luke's flying a couple days later has been Red 5 for some time -- those aren't new hatchmarks on the wings. And on and on like that.

So, for the Battle of Yavin, Red 8 was simply not present. Whether ship or pilot were alive or dead, neither was in flyable condition right when they were needed. Missing-man would be premature if we don't know they're dead. And Rogue One is not a reliable narrator to that effect.

 

[starks]

It got pretty dense a couple pages back, but the short of it is that there were "hero" models completed for Reds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, and 12. There was also a differently-painted pyro model for Red 3, which Analyzer is going to use to stand in for one of the missing ships (9). There is dialogue in the script attributed to Reds 7, 9, and 11, in addition to the models represented, above. The only one missing-missing is Red 8. By using the pyro Red 3 scheme for Red 9, that leaves 7 and 11 to figure out. At my suggestion that the Y-Wing at the end of ANH flying away from the Death Star with Luke and Wedge is a Red Group ship, and the rest of the surviving Rebel fighters were already outbound and are behind the camera, he's jumped on-board with the idea of making it Red 7 and using the "Red Jammer" paint scheme.

Which still leaves him with having to make up Red 11 from whole cloth.

Thanks for the thorough layout. It puts everything in perspective in one post. You have a well thought out and researched take on the subject.

I think using the Red Jammer Y-wing will be sweet.
Also artistic license on Red 11 will be good to see! Any ideas for the scheme here?
Cheers,
Josh

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Thanks for the thorough layout. It puts everything in perspective in one post. You have a well thought out and researched take on the subject.

I... may or may not have spent waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time thinking about all this for the last forty-mumble years... >_>

I think using the Red Jammer Y-wing will be sweet.

It's too neat a look to leave in pre-production hell.

Also artistic license on Red 11 will be good to see! Any ideas for the scheme here?

I'm ready to wade into brainstorming with Analyzer whenever he is. His insights about the paint apps on the original miniatures that I'd missed or forgotten have got my brain going. I have a lot of notions, depending on any of several rough approaches he might want to take with it.

 

[Analyzer]

It got pretty dense a couple pages back, but the short of it is that there were "hero" models completed for Reds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, and 12. There was also a differently-painted pyro model for Red 3, which Analyzer is going to use to stand in for one of the missing ships (9). There is dialogue in the script attributed to Reds 7, 9, and 11, in addition to the models represented, above. The only one missing-missing is Red 8. By using the pyro Red 3 scheme for Red 9, that leaves 7 and 11 to figure out. At my suggestion that the Y-Wing at the end of ANH flying away from the Death Star with Luke and Wedge is a Red Group ship, and the rest of the surviving Rebel fighters were already outbound and are behind the camera, he's jumped on-board with the idea of making it Red 7 and using the "Red Jammer" paint scheme.

Which still leaves him with having to make up Red 11 from whole cloth.

Yup, that's the plan. Might have to use a Revell Y-Wing for Red Jammer though unless I can get my hands on another Bandai at a reasonable price

Also, unlike the studio model, I think I will paint both sides. IIRC the Red Jammer model was only finished on one side and the other was not only not fully painted, but it might also be missing some greeblies and stuff?
Copying exactly as is might be desirable for studio scale but not so sure about a finished piece. Although it could also represent a midway through fresh paint when being called to action

I... may or may not have spent waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time thinking about all this for the last forty-mumble years... >_>

It's too neat a look to leave in pre-production hell.

I'm ready to wade into brainstorming with Analyzer whenever he is. His insights about the paint apps on the original miniatures that I'd missed or forgotten have got my brain going. I have a lot of notions, depending on any of several rough approaches he might want to take with it.

I still need to pick up a few more X-Wings. I need one for 9, 10 and 11

9 as mentioned will use Red 3 pyro scheme, 10 we have ref for (although not get so there will be some liberties for sure)

as you mentioned 11 is wide open. Loved to see some suggestions

I have 2 and 12 in primer currently

 

[starks]

Yup, that's the plan. Might have to use a Revell Y-Wing for Red Jammer though unless I can get my hands on another Bandai at a reasonable price

Yeah what's the story there? Why is the Y-wing so expensive compared to the X-wing?
Cheers,
Josh

 

[Hagoth]

Does an image compilation of all the known X-Wing (Red group) color patterns exist? At risk of repeating something already done, here are some Red 11 suggestions as requested.

How about a canopy and engine cowl bands in the light greenish color we see on some Red 3 panels?
I really like the story that the clean nose panel surrounded by the blast marked other panels tells on Red 1. Maybe something similar on Red 11 but located on another part of the ship like a wing or along the side of the droid strip. Make the replacement panel another color like light blue to give the impression of another ship being used as spares. Something along these lines to give Red 11 have a distinctive look.

Kicking this pebble down the hill to see what comes of it...

 

[Analyzer]

The other possibility for Red 11 could be the MPC X-Wing from ESB/Return of The Jedi?

from the PropStore acution

STAR WARS - EP V - THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (1980) - X-Wing ILM Model Miniature - Current price: £90000

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