Jaitea
Master Member
I'm not sure we have even the other Gamora,....she might have vanished with the Iron Man snap
J
Avengers: Endgame (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
I'm not sure we have even the other Gamora,....she might have vanished with the Iron Man snap
J
firesprite
Master Member
The timeline split there, so she's not really Gamora from the past anymore. She's Gamora from another timeline.
Also, she was no longer part of Thanos' army at that point, so no dusting for her.
Boba Debt
Master Member
Too many of you are over thinking the time travel.
In this universe it's not that complicated.
It's is all relative from the point of view of the person at that time.
When someone goes into the past events don't magically change in the future (normally represented as vanishing real people or vanishing specific people in pictures).
You remember everything and your reality is that both or multiple events happened.
In this universe it's not that complicated.
It's is all relative from the point of view of the person at that time.
When someone goes into the past events don't magically change in the future (normally represented as vanishing real people or vanishing specific people in pictures).
You remember everything and your reality is that both or multiple events happened.
matty matt
Sr Member
So obviously this movie was #1 this weekend, but Captain Marvel came in at #2. Have two movies featuring the same character ever held the top spots before?
Not to take anything away from Captain Marvel but I’d be willing to bet that a lot of those ticket sales were from folks who thought they could just drop in and purchase Endgame tickets on the day.
First off - I watched Captain Marvel and a week later I couldn't remember a thing about it when my friend wanted to check it out... so I went again.
Blah... already forgetting the whole thing again.
HOWEVER... I just spent 3 hours chatting with the other editor in his office about End Game, and it's a testament to how great of storytellers the Russos are in that we could easily remember EVERYTHING that happened. Between the two of us we could probably write out the beats on a wipe board and not miss a scene.
(Though I would like to cut out everything Captain Marvel)
I loved it.
I hate rewriting scenes... I hate when others do the whole "Well I woulda done this!!...." but I'm gonna for one thing...
Get rid of Captain Marvel at the beginning. It would have been SO much better if you had Nebula and Tony playing that game, but Tony is in some way on life support, again, that his arc reactor is powering. They finish the game, he asks if she had fun, then state that it's time...
They can power the ship to make the jumps now, but it's like in "The Abyss"... she has to go straight to earth, and there they can revive him if they do it fast enough.
Tony does his message to Pepper about this "hail mary"... he'll close his eyes and dream of Potts, then Nebula unplugs him... But will she go to earth?
Then you have a ticking clock, stakes, and Tony Stark being revived...
When Tony comes to Pepper is over him....
Captain Marvel is pointless and the ONLY thing that bugged me in this flick.
The rest is GOOD to GREAT....I could rave on and on... but man, I'll never leave this thread....
So overall, great! It's not Infinity War... but it's damn good in my opinion.
Blah... already forgetting the whole thing again.
HOWEVER... I just spent 3 hours chatting with the other editor in his office about End Game, and it's a testament to how great of storytellers the Russos are in that we could easily remember EVERYTHING that happened. Between the two of us we could probably write out the beats on a wipe board and not miss a scene.
(Though I would like to cut out everything Captain Marvel)
I loved it.
I hate rewriting scenes... I hate when others do the whole "Well I woulda done this!!...." but I'm gonna for one thing...
Get rid of Captain Marvel at the beginning. It would have been SO much better if you had Nebula and Tony playing that game, but Tony is in some way on life support, again, that his arc reactor is powering. They finish the game, he asks if she had fun, then state that it's time...
They can power the ship to make the jumps now, but it's like in "The Abyss"... she has to go straight to earth, and there they can revive him if they do it fast enough.
Tony does his message to Pepper about this "hail mary"... he'll close his eyes and dream of Potts, then Nebula unplugs him... But will she go to earth?
Then you have a ticking clock, stakes, and Tony Stark being revived...
When Tony comes to Pepper is over him....
Captain Marvel is pointless and the ONLY thing that bugged me in this flick.
The rest is GOOD to GREAT....I could rave on and on... but man, I'll never leave this thread....
So overall, great! It's not Infinity War... but it's damn good in my opinion.
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I was talking about that with my buddy... It depends what he snapped away. If it was "Anyone not from this timeline", then yeah, Gamora's toast.
Because that's the scene I wanted... Peter Quill gets Gamora back, only to have her ash in front of him.
That would completely mess him up...
Whatever, I'm a Gunn and Guardians guy, and I trust he has a great movie coming...
And that movie may have THOR now!
Bloop
Sr Member
I've been trying to figure out the Tesseract, and how Loki taking it would need to be rectified in order for the timeline to be intact. Since Loki was in possession of the Tesseract at the beginning of Infinity War, and Thanos takes it from him then, are we to assume that there's no paradox and no need to return the Tesseract back to New York (where Loki took it in Endgame)? Thor originally took Loki and the Tesseract back to Asguard after "The Battle of New York" from the original Avengers movie, so it seems the timeline has been changed. Unless the new Loki series shows something to change this, we have a different course of events for Loki and the Tesseract.
Is it possible that the Loki that was killed in Infinity War was always the one that escaped from New York in Endgame? Did he take the place of "himself" so that there's the original Loki out there somewhere? Or did he somehow go back to New York after "TBoNY" with the Tesseract and restore the timeline, letting himself and the Tessereact be taken by Thor? I'm hoping the Loki series may show what happened after he left in Endgame, though it could still be a prequel series as was previously thought.
Is it possible that the Loki that was killed in Infinity War was always the one that escaped from New York in Endgame? Did he take the place of "himself" so that there's the original Loki out there somewhere? Or did he somehow go back to New York after "TBoNY" with the Tesseract and restore the timeline, letting himself and the Tessereact be taken by Thor? I'm hoping the Loki series may show what happened after he left in Endgame, though it could still be a prequel series as was previously thought.
Jaitea
Master Member
As the film kept saying,...forget what you know from previous TV & Movie Time Travel....No paradox's etc.....The guys went back to take the Tesseract from Stark Tower,....their presence created an alternate universe, & we see Loki escape with the Tesseract,....they gave up & tried another attempt where they knew exactly where the Tesseract was previous, Shield 1970,...because this is an alternative timeline, the normal timeline continued along parallel as we saw in the original films.
So Loki & the Tesseract he stole are in an alternate time stream, escaping again,....will he find his way back to our universe, the one that he eventually became a good guy & got murdered by Thanos?
J
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I've seen so much back-and-forth over the last few pages. Short version: There are problems with the time travel in this movie. And I'm willing to bet the creatives are aware of them. I am 99.9% certain fallout will continue into Phase 4. Both the Loki streaming series and the next Doctor Strange will almost certainly be related to this.
Breaking it down:
• Thanos split the Sakaaran ship in half. At the beginning of IW, we saw half the ship drifting out-of-frame, while Thanos and crew were dealing with folks on the half closer to his own ship.
• Structural technicalities of the Infinity Stones... As has been pointed out, it's not as easy as "just taking the Stones back when/where they were taken from". The Space Stone has to get remade into the Tesseract, the Reality Stone needs to get re-"liquified", the Mind Stone needs to get a new scepter gem to house it... Not even getting into other issues.
• Alternate timelines -- what the Ancient One warned about: Merrily dancing across the paradox minefield, it's impossible to replace the Stones without any lasting effect, due to how the Stones were got in the first place. There was a lot of Battle of New York stuff that played out differently between the 2023 folks showing up and when they left again. Cap had no memory of fighting himself during the aftermath of the Battle of New York. Sitwell and Rumlow didn't think Cap was secretly HYDRA in Winter Soldier, not to mention Loki absconding with the Tesseract. Same with Past Thanos coming forward -- as soon as the Nubulas mentally synced, Thanos' timeline split off from what it had originally been, even though it couldn't in order for what happened first time around to have happened. Loki taking the Tesseract, alone, has massive ramifications. Not imprisoned on Asgard where he can assist the Dark Elves, no Tesseract in Odin's Vault to spur them to store the Æther somewhere not on Asgard. Which impacts the fate of the Collector and the Guardians. Also, given Loki vanished when Thor was right on the brink of hauling him back to face judgment, I can't see him leaving again until he finds his brother. And so on and so on.
• Cap. I'm trying to find the time to re-watch Captain America: TFA, Avengers, Winter Soldier, and Civil War. I'm seeing people pointing out Peggy never named her husband, but I clearly remember a scene where someone was telling Cap who she married, and him saying "I knew him. Good man." I can't see Mr. Decent depriving him of his happiness with Peggy, or hers with him, or their two kids their existence, just for what he'd see as his own selfish desires. And I don't accept that guy dying and Steve taking on his identity, because I can't see him "playing dead" and leaving Peggy to her Alzheimer's alone. I can see him going back and getting his dance with Peggy and both of them being aware of his duty to history to not meddle, and then him leaving again. But that would interfere with her emotional recounting of losing Steve in WWII in the documentary footage. Whatever the case, though, I cannot see him living out his life without getting involved. Sitting back, knowing HYDRA is infiltrating SHIELD and doing nothing about it? Knowing Bucky is being tortured and brainwashed by the Russians and not mounting a rescue? And, as a side benefit, shutting down the Winter Soldier program and saving Howard and Maria? As the other alternate timelines were superimposed on the "real" one, so, too, must Steve's new backstory.
• Cap II: One of the less-problematic Stones to return would be the Soul Stone, but his reaction to the Guardian would be too important to have gone so unseen, and the impact of his returning the Soul Stone is... fraught. Would it bring back the one who was sacrificed to get it in the first place? Of all the questions about the process of returning the Stones, that one is the one most needing to be shown.
My takeaway: If these alternate tributary timelines -- Thanos and crew, Battle of New York, Camp Lehigh in 1970, etc. -- are all interwoven with the main timeline and at the same time the changes made in them don't impact said main timeline, I feel like there's gonna be some temporal fallout needing dealing with. They spent too much time talking about time-travel problems in dialogue for me to accept the writers and directors then were oblivious to the issues they were creating in those exact terms. These very questions -- Steve interfering in his own past and Peggy's, Loki and the Tesseract, what happened when Steve took the Soul Stone back to Vormir, Vision's fate... I feel like the starting thread of Phase 4 is sorting out all that.
That aside, brilliantly done. Excellent drama and character moments. Good action and organic humor. I am satisfied... but waiting. This is the end of the beginning, and there's more to come. Spider-Man: Far From Home is going to be the last film of Phase 3. And, so far, nothing has been announced going forward, beyond the vague tease of GotG3. Not what films, or when they're coming out. The Netflix series have ended, and there's a two-year moratorium on even beginning production on those properties for Disney+. The new series for Disney+ have been announced, but no premiere dates yet. I kinda hate the lack of anything to grab onto.
Breaking it down:
• Thanos split the Sakaaran ship in half. At the beginning of IW, we saw half the ship drifting out-of-frame, while Thanos and crew were dealing with folks on the half closer to his own ship.
• Structural technicalities of the Infinity Stones... As has been pointed out, it's not as easy as "just taking the Stones back when/where they were taken from". The Space Stone has to get remade into the Tesseract, the Reality Stone needs to get re-"liquified", the Mind Stone needs to get a new scepter gem to house it... Not even getting into other issues.
• Alternate timelines -- what the Ancient One warned about: Merrily dancing across the paradox minefield, it's impossible to replace the Stones without any lasting effect, due to how the Stones were got in the first place. There was a lot of Battle of New York stuff that played out differently between the 2023 folks showing up and when they left again. Cap had no memory of fighting himself during the aftermath of the Battle of New York. Sitwell and Rumlow didn't think Cap was secretly HYDRA in Winter Soldier, not to mention Loki absconding with the Tesseract. Same with Past Thanos coming forward -- as soon as the Nubulas mentally synced, Thanos' timeline split off from what it had originally been, even though it couldn't in order for what happened first time around to have happened. Loki taking the Tesseract, alone, has massive ramifications. Not imprisoned on Asgard where he can assist the Dark Elves, no Tesseract in Odin's Vault to spur them to store the Æther somewhere not on Asgard. Which impacts the fate of the Collector and the Guardians. Also, given Loki vanished when Thor was right on the brink of hauling him back to face judgment, I can't see him leaving again until he finds his brother. And so on and so on.
• Cap. I'm trying to find the time to re-watch Captain America: TFA, Avengers, Winter Soldier, and Civil War. I'm seeing people pointing out Peggy never named her husband, but I clearly remember a scene where someone was telling Cap who she married, and him saying "I knew him. Good man." I can't see Mr. Decent depriving him of his happiness with Peggy, or hers with him, or their two kids their existence, just for what he'd see as his own selfish desires. And I don't accept that guy dying and Steve taking on his identity, because I can't see him "playing dead" and leaving Peggy to her Alzheimer's alone. I can see him going back and getting his dance with Peggy and both of them being aware of his duty to history to not meddle, and then him leaving again. But that would interfere with her emotional recounting of losing Steve in WWII in the documentary footage. Whatever the case, though, I cannot see him living out his life without getting involved. Sitting back, knowing HYDRA is infiltrating SHIELD and doing nothing about it? Knowing Bucky is being tortured and brainwashed by the Russians and not mounting a rescue? And, as a side benefit, shutting down the Winter Soldier program and saving Howard and Maria? As the other alternate timelines were superimposed on the "real" one, so, too, must Steve's new backstory.
• Cap II: One of the less-problematic Stones to return would be the Soul Stone, but his reaction to the Guardian would be too important to have gone so unseen, and the impact of his returning the Soul Stone is... fraught. Would it bring back the one who was sacrificed to get it in the first place? Of all the questions about the process of returning the Stones, that one is the one most needing to be shown.
My takeaway: If these alternate tributary timelines -- Thanos and crew, Battle of New York, Camp Lehigh in 1970, etc. -- are all interwoven with the main timeline and at the same time the changes made in them don't impact said main timeline, I feel like there's gonna be some temporal fallout needing dealing with. They spent too much time talking about time-travel problems in dialogue for me to accept the writers and directors then were oblivious to the issues they were creating in those exact terms. These very questions -- Steve interfering in his own past and Peggy's, Loki and the Tesseract, what happened when Steve took the Soul Stone back to Vormir, Vision's fate... I feel like the starting thread of Phase 4 is sorting out all that.
That aside, brilliantly done. Excellent drama and character moments. Good action and organic humor. I am satisfied... but waiting. This is the end of the beginning, and there's more to come. Spider-Man: Far From Home is going to be the last film of Phase 3. And, so far, nothing has been announced going forward, beyond the vague tease of GotG3. Not what films, or when they're coming out. The Netflix series have ended, and there's a two-year moratorium on even beginning production on those properties for Disney+. The new series for Disney+ have been announced, but no premiere dates yet. I kinda hate the lack of anything to grab onto.
If you think about it, in addition to the "real" Gamora, the Hulk is gone as well. I mean, his character/personality from all the way through Thor: Ragnarok is now gone. You've got the Hulk body, but with Banner's mind in control. Banner is not any different in thought, deed, or emotion (at least, not in the film that we can see). Bruce basically put on the permanent "Hulk suit" and the Hulk personality is now gone forever. Even when the Ancient One separates Bruce from the Hulk, we see Banner (as before), but the Hulk is just an unconscious mass of flesh lying over in the corner, not "Hulk, smash!" anymore.
RIP, original Hulk...
RIP, original Hulk...
I think cap returned mjolnir when he returned the either?
firesprite
Master Member
In Iron Man, when Happy and Pepper picked him up from the airport, Tony made them stop at the Burger King before they got to the press conference where he sat on the ground eating said cheeseburgers.
Nismo
Well-Known Member
I really enjoyed it - and it was awesome to take my kid ( felt like when I was a kid getting to see return of the jedi)
but I had the same feeling- awesome move and then felt sad it was over- I know more movies are to come but the closing on this chapter is bittersweet for sure.
but I had the same feeling- awesome move and then felt sad it was over- I know more movies are to come but the closing on this chapter is bittersweet for sure.
