ANH Motorised stunt Saber experiments (& blades) Part 1

[Mouse Vader]

Your talking with GB on the back right ? Didn't notice he's way too short for Prowse (had to scroll to see all the picture). So this is ESB training? (when I mentioned tracksuit & Peter Diamond I meant the black one with white stripes).

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Shorter, thinner, and grayer. Prowse still had hair color and was still built like a gorilla at this point in his life.

 

[Mouse Vader]

That light switch (& bob's grip) has lead to a whole bunch of thinking. I'm still kicking these ideas about a bit but I've already done some tests with the Mk2 to see what works. The basic premise I've got is that Bob Anderson (Olympic fencer) is holding this hilt in this way because of a point of balance problem (PoB aka center of gravity) resulting from the removal of some/all of the internals of the stunt graffy & not just some fleeting moment of hand change etc.
Spend a bit of time on any sword forum & you'll soon see that PoB is the critical factor that determines how wealdable a sword is. If it's too far from your hand it's sluggish, heavy in the hand, fatiguing & generally a PITA (I've a collection of about a dozen repro swords from a variety of time periods & fenced epee for a couple of years so know first hand). Too far back isn't as bad, even a heavy sword becomes a lot quicker & light ones very fast but this comes at the price stealing power/momentum from a cut. If cutting isn't necessary eg in fencing, then having the PoB between your finger & thumb is ideal.
Bob's grip is making me think the PoB has moved significantly forward & he's had to move his grip forward to compensate. The presence of the light switch (& no wires) together with having built one of these tells me that's there's likely nothing in the rear of the pictured hilt & likely too that the motor &/or driveshaft have been removed/replaced with a different core for the new static blade. I also checked with the other well known photo of this hilt in ESB trianing with Mark H resting his had on the pommel point on the floor & I noticed that the holes aren't dark as they would be if there was nothing inside the rear end. That is there is close fitting tube/bar inside the pommel end & I'm thinking counter weight. Could even be just a bit of thick walled ally tube would be sufficient.

From left to right : MK2 with switch, wires & grommet removed - real Graffy - MK2 with it's core moved right back into the pommel.

In particular the smaller hole for the wires would be very dark in the real picture if opening on an empty tube (as seen on the left - Mk2).

I can't think of any other reason to put a 'liner' in the pommel. There's no visual reason - this is BHS training. They clearly started off with nothing as the switch indicates, So I can only come up with a counter weight. Any one any other ideas?

So what effect does removing the innards from the stunt graffy have on it's PoB? luckily I have a repro I made earlier so I could find out.
I started with the full Mk2 set up, untapered 1m beech dowel with stud & grub screw d/s.

It's really tricky taking these pictures, balancing the hilt in one hand & taking the picture with the other. PoB is just in front of the red button. It feels very swordy rather like a fast rapier. A tapered blade will move the PoB nearer the middle. Next I removed the motor & driveshaft & wiring but kept the buttons, switch & core/sleeve with bearing. Without a blade PoB is on the front edge of the clamp just as it is with the works inside.


Next I tried putting a beech dowel on the stuffer d/s on to the demotorised hilt. I'd note here that all the driveshafts are fairly heavy. PoB has only moved about 1/2 inch forward.

Next I tried balancing the beech 'blade' that has a stud in the bearing hole with no d/s.

Almost no discernible change to having a d/s & nothing that would cause me to need to change my grip. I know that one candidate for ESB blades is GRP (fiberglass) rods. I have a solid GRP ramrod which is noticably heavier than even the beech dowels. It's somewhat longer at 48" / 1.2m but much thinner .44" (11.25mm). Trying the same thing (no motor/driveshaft) does shift the PoB noticeably forward.

But far enough to need a change in one's grip? As I'm not able to swing it I don't know. Would the proper 5/8 - 16mm+ diameter & length blade in solid GRP do that. I certainly think it's a possibility & one I'll try & test if I have the time & budget.

If there is a PoB issue then the final teasing question is - is this also what Dave Prose is doing with the Vader 'motorised' stunt ? & if so what's causing the issue? There's much more meat at the front of that saber. Could they even have been trialing GRP. The striped tapered blades only appear on his saber when he's holding it normally. I've seen no pictures of him actually dueling with them, that's with a different looking static blade without a stripe & it's then he holds it at the front.

I'm not going to chase GRP until I've put together a motorised Vader & seen what the same battery of tests reveals about it's PoB with wooden blades.

 

[DaveP]

Really enjoyed catching up with this thread! Seem to have missed a few posts on this this week. Fantastic work!

 

[thd9791]

Good experiments! Thank you for testing PoB, I was never able to put words to that.

The pipe stunt and Graflex stunts all have it in the forward part of the grip too, Makes sense why every ESB shot Luke is holding it between the clamp and red buttons

Also, I like your thinking on the gutted ANH thing. I think they used 1 set screw for the core at this point, judging by the black tip promo shot (unless the ANH motorized guts are still in there and I'm mistaken). they may have re-drilled this core into the pipe stunt later on, or made a new core.

 

[OdiWan72]

this level of investigative work is outstanding!!!!

 

[Mouse Vader]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Makes sense why every ESB shot Luke is holding it between the clamp and red buttons

Yes. It's a very natural thing to hold something at it's center of gravity. Not with real swords of course as the CoG is usually low down on the blade & therefore on a sharp bit. Also with a real sword you need the PoB to be slightly forward to give momentum to the cut.

& not just some fleeting moment of hand change etc.

Which is just what I now think. Bob's right handed, the natural 2 hand grip would place his left hand (that we can't see) on the T-track. I think he's holding one handed & bringing up to a 2 hand en-guard.

I'm happy that my hole comparison pic does show they inserted something into the pommel & that this is still most likely to adjust PoB, It's just that this hasn't move so drastically as I first thought. If it is by the amount I got with the GRP ramrod then this would reduce agility & speed somewhat. It would handle like a real sword. A fencing sword, like an epee, is all about speed & agility which is why their PoB is at or a hair in front of, forefinger & thumb (pinching) as this forms a pivot. For 2 handed hold you want the PoB to be between hands or in the palm of your fore hand, in order to get the the same level of speed. I think a length of ally tube in the hilt would move the PoB back again to ideal if the 'new' ESb blade were indeed significantly heavier. For me this is pointing increasingly towards solid GRP.

Doesn't help with what Dave Prowse was doing holding the Vader stunt funny though. PoB is still something that needs to be eliminated as a possibility so I will test as above when I've made it.

As for new blade attachment I think that the simplest move would have been to remove the motor & d/s & bearing. As I'm convinced the bearing is held in place with the grub screw this would also be easily removed. Then machine a new insert for new blade attachment method & put that into the center of the old 'core' & most likely secured with screws. I say this as the the hilt retains both red button & glass eye & a new core would have to be fitted with those & picking up the old thread is difficult as I found out. Additionally these two buttons are a stronger fixing for the core than just one small grub screw & given the level of force they went on to duel with my gut instinct is that the such a small screw or rather the aluminium tube it fixes to would be over stressed.

judging by the black tip promo shot (unless the ANH motorized guts are still in there and I'm mistaken).

My Mk2 core is held in primarily with the glass eye, & I'm currently using a short grub screw that isn't engaging the the outer tube but just to hold in the bearing. It's a stronger set up & makes dis/re- assembly much easier.
I'd love it if the hilt still had the motor for that pic too as it's the only half descent shot of the core front. Saddly there's currently no way to tell.

 

[thd9791]

I have reason to believe the glass eye and red button were still screwed into the original socket on ESB stunts. The Graflex plug sockets are windows into the guts and I think ESB sabers still showed the black socket and pins. There are 3 sections to a graflex socket and 1/2 meet in the middle of the pin socket.

On the ROTJ MoM Vader saber the 3rd part is missing, and this can be seen in the little rectangular test switch hole which is level with 2/3 and their seamline. You can see black plastic and then a metal core.

Now, this also blocks half the glass eye socket, as can also be seen on that vader saber. My estimation was that they slid a core up against the full socket for other bladed Gx stunts. You could still thread both red buttons in place and it would explain the low positioning of bolts on those sabers (right where PoB is) compared to the pipe stunt

 

[vadermania]

Point of balance was crucial for Bob Andersons screen-used movie swords. I owned a screen used Zorro sword made by Tony Swatton, and Tony told me how he co-operated with Anderson, who was the sword master on this movie, too, on the construction and balance of the swords used by Hopkins and Banderas. On another note, I was wondering about the overall weight and balance of the Graflex based Vader ROTJ stunt lightsaber hilt when I handled it in the LFL archives, and I was told that Anderson asked for extra weight to be put inside the hilt to balance out Hamills „hacking“ right before he cuts off Vaders hand.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Point of balance was crucial for Bob Andersons screen-used movie swords...

!!!

 

[thd9791]

Point of balance was crucial for Bob Andersons screen-used movie swords. I owned a screen used Zorro sword made by Tony Swatton, and Tony told me how he co-operated with Anderson, who was the sword master on this movie, too, on the construction and balance of the swords used by Hopkins and Banderas. On another note, I was wondering about the overall weight and balance of the Graflex based Vader ROTJ stunt lightsaber hilt when I handled it in the LFL archives, and I was told that Anderson asked for extra weight to be put inside the hilt to balance out Hamills „hacking“ right before he cuts off Vaders hand.

and THATS why this specific one was used for that choreographed scene? Oh my god, thank you! The core goes VERY far back, at least halfway down the clamp, on this vader saber, as well as further into where the socket would go. I'm so happy knowing this.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Thanks for that very interesting info Vadermania, much appreciated.

I have been doing stuff. I tried to replicate the lighting on the MK2 for a better comparison switch hole picture but failed to get any improvement on what I'd already done. The original main light is a flash about 6-12" (15-30cm) to the right of the camera & given how bulky camera mounted flashes could be in the '70's I'm thinking it was camera mounted (top) with the camera on it's side for the 'portrait' format. There also seems to be other sources too - probably reflectors. I still have a 35mm camera & flash but don't want to go so far as to get a film developed. What I've done will have to do & looks close enough.

I've moved the voltage reg. buck converter to a battery pack. I rearranged a three cell battery holder (with switch) to hold just two 14500 lipo batteries & used the spare bay to take the buck hot glued in place. I had real trouble with the barrel connector I had previously used which started to give intermittent poor connection so replaced it with a mini jack plug & socket - that also didn't want to play. Got there in the end (about 2hrs fault finding) & everything is working better than any time previously. Have I just jinxed myself ?


I've also found some better shots of the original end cap, though this is from the ESB training session. It looks completely flat & metallic with a hole dead center. It looks like it could be the right size for a jack plug socket but I've yet to scale it. Doesn't mean it is as resolution still isn't that good.

I'm inclined to believe this is still the original end-cap as the one shot I've got from ANH has that glint of light from the pommel center.

 

[thd9791]

Initially, before we knew about the jack plug idea, I connected dots to another explanation for that hole.

Many camera flash units have a tripod mounting hole in the same place. Kobold is one of the most famous. DeMornay Budd's 3 cell, Nikon 3 cell, Canon Model x 3 cell, etc. I just assumed they had a different flash unit that wasn't the hero OR they installed a Camera Flash endcap into the scratch made tube, or literally slid a Kobold flash body up into the tube, leaving the normally protruding endcap edge flush with the body.

I have next to no evidence for this, other than situational examples of using existing camera equipment for a number of hand props (weapons, yavin scanner, etc) and the coincidence of that hole with existing camera tech.

 

[Propdude113]

Could the endcap just have been a found part? Or just custom machined along with parts for the motor assembly?

 

[Mouse Vader]

or literally slid a Kobold flash body up into the tube, leaving the normally protruding endcap edge flush with the body.

That's a very intriguing idea. Like this one ?

Unfortunately I don't have one to try. Do you have one you can measure ? How long is that bottom section ? If pushed in would it cover the switch & wire holes ?

I'd thought I'd cracked it this morning (which is why I'm online now). A penny washer. I then scaled the centre hole to just over 6mm - 1/4" is 6.35mm. So ordered some 1/4 & 6mm x 1 1/2 (40mm) ones. They're cheap enough. Obviously it would have to be affixed to something else to hold it in place but that Kobold looks really close & would have it's own 'plug' part. If memory serves camera mount threads (were) 1/4" too. If the body is undersized the good old paper wrap would work well. They were also used extensively in SW as you say ?

Please say you've got one to measure! Any one ?!

 

[thd9791]

I do, one sec.

 

[thd9791]

I lied, I had work 1-5 lol hold on

 

[thd9791]

***** I'm sorry.

So, Kobolds are 3-4 inches long. about 2-3mm larger in diameter than a Graflex body. I'm not sure you'd be able to fit a clamp around a pipe that goes around a Kobold.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Bum! NO problems with the delay. Thanks for doing this. I must admit I look at the base of my Parks MPP every time I pass it & think Ideal place for a jack plug or I wonder if they somehow fitted one of these. Are there any other's you can think of that are skinnier? (nice saber by the way.)

First batch of penny washers arrived this morning & there is a way to make this up as an end cap using a jack plug socket to hold the whole thing together. It's really frustrating only having this one picture reference for the actual film. There's definitely something in the middle reflecting light though.

 

[thd9791]

Yes there are a whole host of flashes with tripod mounts there, I listed a few above I think. Ones like Nikon or canon are properly machined and the de mornay budd is built more like a graflex. Pic coming