Suggestion An RPF-wide standard for product delivery? A proposal...

[darthjones]

I feel that it might be time for the RPF to adopt a NO EXCEPTIONS rule for anyone offering a prop or costume of any kind out here.

People can decide what the parameters are but, is it just me, or does every prop made by every fan always take longer than stated? Every time. Rare rare rare exceptions.

That said, I propose that any sales of anything out here through RPF be in stated, manageable runs, and that any manufacturer who does not come in and deliver within the stated time span be permanently banned from the RPF with just a single violation.

No wedding excuses, funerals, lost jobs, weather, or any kind of excuse will be accepted.

If you are making something and offering it, add extra time if your life is a train wreck.

Anovos would not be like this if they were not themselves just another product of delusional garage fantasies and junk food.

Not only that but, if you are offering a prop you also give out your email, home address, work address, and phone number. You would have no problem doing this if you were a serious and qualified manufacturer.

Serious about this. And if you think I'm being harsh then perhaps you are part of the problem.

 

[SethS]

This is absurd. Clearly you've been burned and have decided to have a tantrum about it, but what you are asking for is over the top, and next to impossible to enforce.

It's really simple-- do your homework. Look up the seller. If they are a problem, you'll see evidence of it. Example-- why people would ever order from Avonos post year one is beyond me. The writing was on the wall.

If somebody is a new seller, buyer beware. I have only given money to long time members. Sure, sometimes people don't hit their marks-- but the extreme cases I have seen on here of negligence are far and few between, and in some cases they were banned.

Keep in mind that Fan prop builders with their own factories are very rare. I think Crucible and Fieldmarshal are the only ones (and they are generally still small outfits, if not a couple dudes). Most builders have to do it one at a time on their own, or they coordinate with a factory and are at the mercy of said factory's schedule and problems.

Check your entitlement. None of these things are mass produced by a corporation. They are labors of love, and generally very slim profit margins, and that means that bumps in the roads are harder to deal with.

Also, maybe you missed it, but there is a global pandemic going on. Postal infrastructure is overwhelmed. And those third party factories-- most are in China, which is shut down.

If you want instant gratification and perfect ship dates, stick with Disney or Hasbro.

 

[eethan]

I have to completelly disagree with that proposal too!
I'm gutted by the impatience and the pushyness of some people here in the project runs. You can see people asking for news every two days without any polite manners and immediately jumping to crazy conclusions, it's making very unconfortable to read sometimes.

I never made un run yet, I have my first run in preparation right now. I've been working on it with my wife for 5 full months and we are 50 pieces of 4 different items completelly without any interest thread and without knowing if it will ever sell because we are SO STRESSED of people going crazy because of one week of delay and starting pushing us. I'm a bit of naturally stressed person, that project is very hard and if people start pressuring me, it will not help.

If someone is doing his 5th run with big issues and no communication, yes, first people should stop ordering from that guy but the rpf should probably take measures. And this is probably lacking a bit right now. I can think of at least one name of someone that did unorganized, late run and no communication on every run, and on the last run, he just disapeared and is just selling on etsy now. But the rpf took no measures.

Now, if you take another example in the oposite direction, there was the ghost in the shell pistol run, not the one from Tmax that went well, the first one. This run was very late and people went a bit crazy, but this guy was a very nice, very motivated person that just got completely crushed by the sheer pressure and stress of the complexity of his run and pressure from people. He had to completely isolate himself after several meltdowns and his girlfriend had to take over the communication because the stress of connecting on the forum was too much for him. This is horrible to witness and I was disgusted by the situation that this guy had to endure. In the end, he delivered but I think this kind of a life changing situation for him and not really in a good way.

Of course, this is not easy to be part of this kind of runs but we are all humans and life can be so complicated at times. It like people cannot even understand a divorse, moving home and a pandemic at the same time. they will still push every day.

On top of all that, since I'm on the rpf, there has been a few runs like that that took two years or where the communication wasn't great. it's annoying, but at the same time, I have to say that a lot more runs went perfectly smooth and didn't have any big delays. I don't think it's possible to say that all runs are consistently largely late, this is not true.

This is a great community with awesome runs being done, I'm so glad I can be part of those runs and if eventually, sometimes it will be a bit late, so be it. There are just a very few bad cases and people should just not order from the people with a bad reputation but be more patient with honest guys just trying their best.

 

[Dr Jones Sr]

I can see where Darth Jones is coming from.

I myself have only sold one item here, a single run of 50, and I didn't advertise it until I had the 50 items to hand. I think the longest it took for me to get something out the door was three days after I received payment.

I couldn't imagine putting myself in the position of advertising something and accepting payment if I didn't have the item to hand.

However I fully understand that accepting one-off custom orders is an entirely different matter! Obviously you can't start working on a bespoke item until you receive the order. You have to gather materials and figure out how to approach the mechanics of making whatever the thing is. If it's something you've never made before how can you know how long it will take? That line of business is all about open communication and honesty with the client.

 

[eethan]

Well, this is true in the case of a small inexpensive run but this is obviously not possible for big expensive runs. No one can afford to advance 25K in advance without knowing if his stuff will even sell. The interest and preorder is mandatory in some cases. And if this principle was never used we woudln't have any of those lightsaber runs or others that were super successful but all depending on a preorder run.

 

[MastahBlastah]

This feels pretty darned entitled to me as well. This isn't Amazon.

 

[newmagrathea]

I'm gonna say no. I pretty much expect that every project run is going to run over on time. Maybe I've conditioned myself by being a habitual Kickstarter backer. These are individuals usually, they have day jobs and personal lives, things come up. I've never offered a run of anything myself, but I do take commissions and I've had tools burn out or break, run out of materials and been unable to source new without a delay, things happen. Communication is important, and some are better than others. I think more communication about what is going on eases the buyers even if is late.

 

[BRRogers]

Ok, so I can understand the source of frustration but that’s an extreme solution which would get every member with production line delays (which is *usually* not their fault) banned.

Accountability and transparency is better, especially if money has passed hands.
People will be able to tell you that they are dropping the pre-order system if their production is consistent because of problems like that. It’s WAY better to generate interest, foot the bill, then sell them once in-hand.

...without the infrastructure set up a lot of folks are only one person shops trying to do this stuff. It’s a LOT of work and an LOT of stress already without that kind of burden.

ok.

So let’s just say you’ve decided to make a run for an item that you’re passionate over, which is experiencing delays. Let’s say it’s not your fault. You’re already stressed and anxious about being passed deadline and maybe even worried that QC won’t be there once youve finished (assuming manufacturing is out-of-house).

Heaven forbid you’ve taken deposits or pre-orders to help get it going.

Now every (or just ONE) customer who’s (for some reason) just as stressed and angry about the delay will be able to contact you whenever they want.
Text you during your friends funeral screaming at you about their order, calling you at night while you’re trying to sleep, showing up AT YOUR HOUSE to get their money back? I’m not saying everyone is like that but I’ve heard of people issuing death threats to not just makers, but their families over delays.
And then you get banned too. You never see your product come to fruition. And you might not even be able to finish and sell of your stock much less maintain your dignity.

Just remember. The serious and legitimate manufacturers have business emails and phone numbers for such reasons as that.

Could a system be established to safeguard people? Yes. PayPal is helpful that way with disputes.

It might require a bit of extra work but it gets the job done.

However some vendors just won’t be set up the same way to issue refunds or generate capital to start work at times. It’s not a one size shoe fits all

 

[Psab keel]

This is why I don't take money upfront from anyone for a commission (for the most part). There are a few exceptions to that rule but usually it's only a small deposit which me and the buyer agree upon and that money goes directly to the purchase of materials, thus getting deducted from the final price. I've also done a few costumes ( my specialty) where I have taken money up front but they had to wait. I always delivered though. Deadlines for me are hard to gauge so to take the pressure off I don't do it exactly that way anymore.

I also don't bite off more than I can chew and only have a handful of projects at a time on commission, despite numerous requests for product that I turn down until I can deliver for the people ahead of them. Customers are great buy I can't take their money unless I know I can deliver. That's just my philosophy on it.

I like to have verbal agreements with possible customers rather than hold their money because something always comes up. Always. No matter how well I plan, without fail it happens. Time, or my lack thereof is usually my biggest enemy.

I work an insanely irregular schedule, never having the same days off every week, much less having the same hours and the work can be physically exhausting and emotionally draining at times. In the last 7 months I moved, my wife changed jobs, and we lost her step father to cancer. We have other family members who are ill with serious health problems and the Mrs and I have a hard enough time trying to see one another in what little time we are afforded.

My wife and I also have lots of familial responsibilities as well as maintaining our home and caring for our dog. It may seem trivial to say that on its face but considering the demands of our jobs, the pressure they create in our lives, and the amount of time they consume, even things like taking the dog out five times because she's restless become that much more stressful when, if circumstances were different, it would merely be annoying and nothing more.

All that said, this was my reality before the worldwide pandemic. As grateful as I am to be employed, I still have no time and the pressure from work has been racheted up to 11 for the fear of getting sick and dealing with a public who is on edge.

Now all that said, do I empathize with people who have waited years on Anovos or other fan makers runs without much recourse for overdue product? ABSOLUTELY! I think that company needed a major overhaul a long time ago, but the sins of one company shouldn't have to be paid for by this community.

If I have a hard enough time generating a few items for the few commissions I do get so I can only imagine the pressure felt by those who work with machine shops and the like to make their runs possible.

Plus trying to enforce a policy like this could open up all kinds of problems. What if someone was unhappy with their product and started a bunch of lies to get the maker banned out of spite?

 

[BTTUK]

I understand the point of the idea, but the way you've put it, just comes across extremely badly in my opinion.

Who dictates what is a manageable load for specific people?

Why shouldn't unexpected life events be acceptable? Who on Earth decides when their family members get sick, have accidents, or unfortunately die. Let alone decide when any of those things happen just to annoy a bunch of people interested in something that's insignificant at that point in time?

Your proposal is completely unworkable in reality.

 

[Panaflex]

I agree with others here that the proposal is excessively harsh and severe.

We’re lucky to have the artists here, willing to produce something that in many cases just isn’t available anywhere else on the planet.

The scammers get exposed and the cream rises to the top.

Finally, pointing an accusatory finger at others you’re attempting win over probably isn’t the best tactic.

 

[Art Andrews]

Montagar has unilaterally handled all sales issues for more than a decade now. This community is beyond lucky to have him in that position. You will never find someone who is more rooted, consistent and level-headed. I know that we do not always show our hand on why this or that decision has been made, but behind-the-scenes I see it all and in every instance, Montagar has made decisions that have squarely placed the community first. He is irreplaceable and the day he steps down (hopefully no time in the foreseeable future) will be a day in which this community experiences its greatest loss.

darthjones, like others, I understand your frustration, but we have operated as smoothly as humanly possible, striking a fair balance between buyers' expectations and sellers' abilities due solely to Montagar's wisdom and approach. We are unlikely to change that approach anytime soon.

 

[SethS]

I have to completelly disagree with that proposal too!
I'm gutted by the impatience and the pushyness of some people here in the project runs. You can see people asking for news every two days without any polite manners and immediately jumping to crazy conclusions, it's making very unconfortable to read sometimes.

I mentioned this in another thread, it's sadly something I see more and more of. And I've noticed a couple users who are quick to complain at wait times on small runs are sometimes the same people who immediately turn around and sell the product in the junkyard.

 

[zorg]

is it just me, or does every prop made by every fan always take longer than stated? Every time. Rare rare rare exceptions.

i must be a rare rare rare exception EVERY TIME then.

my customers get what they pay for , sometimes shipped out within the hour. we are not businesses and do not have to offer you anything.

if it's too stressful for you that you don't have the item in your hand as soon as you hit send money then don't buy anything.

i take offence at you tarring my reputation with your broad tarred brush, please put me on ignore as i have done with you.

 

[SethS]

Every run I have joined in on-- every single one, has had a very minor delay. And each delay was accompanied by the persn doing the run saying "Hey guys, here's what happened..."

And pretty much every time, everyone replies with a "hey, we get it" or "We know you're making sure it's being done right" or some other positive message of understanding.

The situation the OP is describing is by far an infrequent situation. It happens, but not that often.

 

[Gerard2567]

Yikes- such a controversial statement and yet nearly every respectable member disagrees with you.

Even in the professional field there are delays especially for personal matters for funerals etc.

Asking them to give out their home address is a little too far and breaches many privacy and confidentiality laws here. That's a big no. I don't even sell things but the last thing i want is some lunatic rocking up to my front door when Im at work and terrorising my roommate's.

Infact this situation seems a little too familiar. I worked as a deliveey driver at a fast food chain and have a zero tolerance for harassment. My coworkers sometimes screw up an order, thats granted and there will be a delay fixing it up such as delivering new goods. There's a mental mind breaking speed and stress the managera put on the employees especially when you have to make 200 ordera in half an hour.

But treating us like we're valued less as human beings than your food? Expect me to look very angrily at you. I don't care about your 1 star review "the driver looks mad"

Especially throwing stuff at my personal car because i rocked up later than eta management provided.

 

[darthjones]

All of this is great, guys. Seriously. Informative and something that everyone feels strongly about yay or nay.

But all of this can be solved by not stating a delivery window you cannot meet. THAT is the easiest part.

By far.

I way don't feel entitled though! I have ended this hobby for myself. Not going to purchase or pursue anything further. The only thing I have on order is a 4 year old Anovos product but I don't expect that to ever arrive. What triggers me is seeing complaints concerning much smaller projects.

I have just been feeling and seeing over time that missing delivery dates by a LOT has become almost accepted as normal. That has to end.

Not addressing Covid - 19 here as all of this was a problem before pandemic.

But very much thanks for chiming in. Me, I'd enact such a standard if I could. And huge props (pun intended) to those of you who deliver what you say WHEN you say.

Thanks again.

And be as angry with me as you like because I will not be buying anything.

 

[nickytea]

At least this post demonstrates fairly succinctly why you don't see as many great runs anymore.
This level of entitlement has dissuaded more than a couple builders I know.

 

[BTTUK]

Again though, you're taking a far too simplistic view on this subject.

It doesn't matter how far in advance a person puts an end date, unless they've suddenly learned the ability to infallibly see into the future, then no deadline is ever going to be a dead cert in real life. Machines break, accidents/illnesses happen, day job becomes overwhelmingly busy close to the deadline..... So many valid reasons can happen no matter how much time a run is given for completion. To say otherwise and state it as fact that they SHOULD have seen those unforeseeable events happening, is to completely live in a space that doesn't reflect any reality of life at all.

You can say that you are ignoring the current situation, but that is to ignore a massive example of something that instantly shows your point to be unworkable. Nobody saw this coming like it has before the year began, yet in your idea, this would be enough to damage the reputation of a maker. I'm sorry but that just seems churlish and self centred to me.

The thing is, your original post and subsequent reply, just strike me that you aren't really interested in a discussion about it at all. You simply want your opinion heard, and aren't really wanting to engage with the opposite ones of others. Even those with extensive experience in runs, having a seperate opinion, you instantly dismissed before even reading them, as "being part of the problem". Doing that is simply making something into a tribalistic "you against them" point, which there's far too much of these days.

 

[darthjones]

No, I love everyone’s response. And if it took my stance to hear some of this then maybe that is okay.

I do not expect my product anymore and do not feel in any way “entitled” to it.

In response to the great response here (and thank you) the thing that REALLY gets me is how any of us here are often treated with silence and secrecy when a problem or major delay comes up.

I’ve been through it more than once.

And certainly not talking about pandemic delays. I felt this way for the last year.