Advice: Bandai vs. FineMolds scale question -- TIE Bomber experts wanted

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

In the event Bandai never makes a TIE Bomber, and given that the original studio miniature used the MPC Darth Vader's TIE Fighter wings, which messed with the scale, that means we can't use the wings that come with Bandai's TIE Advanced x1 for a conversion/scratch-build, as they'd be too big. But. Since FineMolds got erroneous information from Lucasfilm that made all of their 1:72 craft a little smaller than 1:72, is the true-scale difference enough that one could use the FM wings for a Bandai-scale Bomber?

Trying to plan ahead in case we are left without.

 

[Analyzer]

It's an interesting question

There is also another option as well if the Fine Molds wings are a bit large, the Revell pocket kit

It was very close to, just a bit smaller in size than the Fine Molds one.

I have seen someone make a Tie Bomber from the Bandai kit though.

IIRC, the ILM did use the MPC Tie Advanced kit, but they also added onto the wings and used the cockpit screen.

Does that theoretically means that the Studio Scale model is whatever scale the MPC one was? Likewise, building from a Bandai Tie Advanced kit, you should wind up with the correct scale based on the studio models?

Now of course the dilemma is how does that jive with whatever official numbers say about it regarding the length/width?

Personally, I would think using the wings and cockpit screen from the Bandai to then figure out the relative sizes of everything else would yield the best match for 1/72?

Also, for what it's worth, here is the old Fantastic Plastic (now MVM) "1/72" bomber with a Fine Molds "1/72" tie

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

IIRC, the ILM did use the MPC Tie Advanced kit, but they also added onto the wings and used the cockpit screen.

Does that theoretically means that the Studio Scale model is whatever scale the MPC one was? Likewise, building from a Bandai Tie Advanced kit, you should wind up with the correct scale based on the studio models?

One of the things I'm trying to run down that I remember reading once upon a time was that MPC goofed the proportions of the wings to the rest of the ship -- so that while the viewport would lock in the scale, the wings were slightly underscaled, as a result. Or, wait... ARG! so much to keep straight -- am I misremembering and they used the Kenner toy, not the MPC kit? And that's why the wings are weird?

 

[edge10]

You could always ask Oscar, he is building a kit of the Studio Scale model:

Studio Scale 1/48 TIE Bomber JPG Productions

Decided to start a thread for this one since I am taking a break from my Randy Cooper Sandcrawler build and started to clean and prep some of its parts. The solar panel have very good detail but of them was slightly warped. It needed some hot air gun action to correct its geometry. Here is a...

www.therpf.com

And here is a pdf link from that thread:

http://www.x2creativos.com/pdf/tie_bomber.pdf

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Thanks, edge10 -- that should help a lot. 1:48 means it's the model kit they used. I'll check that out and probably ping him in on this.

 

[Analyzer]

So that PDF does indeed show they used the MPC Tie Advanced cockpit frame and wings

I believe the scale of the MPC was considered to be about 1/36 scale. That would make the studio model 1/36 scale as well?

If that is the case, i.e. they are the same scale then we use a 1/72 donor tie advanced and everything else is done proportionally, then you will have a 1/72 Tie Bomber (assuming Bandai's TIE's are indeed accurately 1/72)

However, that RPF build thread mentions a studio scale but says it is 1/48 scale (remember, studio scale may or may not have been built to any established scale). Did the 1/48 number come from comparing the size of the studio model to the "real world" sizes or was that just a guesstimate? ( I do not know myself)

But assuming a Studio Scale tie fighter is indeed 1/48 based on official ship sizes, then if I got it right, you would need a Tie Advanced that is around 1/54 in order to produce a 1/72 Tie Bomber. i.e. you need a larger scale model to produce a smaller scale end product
Bandai's 1/72 and anything smaller would be too small to get a 1/72 Tie Bomber

That would be a ratio very similar to the pic I posted early comparing the Fine Molds Tie Advanced to the garage kit resin bomber where the bomber is much larger that a regular tie

I don't think there is anything in that scale range as far as the wings unless you use that old estes rocket Vader Tie Fighter and you could possibly use the cockpit from the old ERTL Tie twin pack

Of course that also brings up the debate as to the scale of the MPC model. The popular 1/36 scaling I believe was based on the same numbers that make Fine Molds tie fighters too small compared to Bandai's.

If the scale of the MPC Vader tie is actually closer to 1/48 itself, and the the studio model being 1/48 as listed above, then you are all set with using a Bandai 1/72 tie advanced to create a 1/72 Tie Bomber

Does this makes sense?

i.e. I would go with the assumption that the cockpit frame and wings should match the scale size of the Tie advanced at whatever scale you decide they actually is

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Analyzer, yeah, this is why it makes my head hurt. There's no scale listed on the original box. I don't know who's done the figuring. If the seated Vader pilot is, in fact, 1:36, then the ship isn't. Ever see Vader in the cockpit of that model? He looks way too big for the space:

Does that mean the model's misrepresented and actually 1:48-ish? Or is it the right size, and Vader an overscaled 1:24-ish? I don't have one I can measure.

I know Bandai's everything are the most true-scale so far, and it's unlikely anyone will get closer. I can't remember where the mis-communication was when FineMolds did it, but I remember it was corrected when Bandai started. So that's the base metric -- the outer diameter of the TIE cockpit ball. And I don't know how the MPC one -- literally -- measures up.

 

[Analyzer]

So, assuming the cockpit window is the "standard candle" for absolute measurement. and Bandai's kit is accurately scaled as 1/72 and the MPC window is proportionally sized

The Bandai 1/72 comes in roughly at 2.2 to 2.3 cm
The MPC comes in at roughly 4.0 to 4.1 cm

So that means that scaling up from the "known" scale of Bandai, the MPC is between 1/38 and 1/39 scale

Again, assuming the cockpit window being the standard candle for size across all original trilogy TIEs, that makes the Studio Scale Model 1/38 or 1/39 scale.

If that is acceptable, as mentioned, simply build from a Bandai kit and it will be an exact donor for a 1/72 scale Tie Bomber

If, as mentioned above, you want the Studio Scale model to be 1/48 because the Tie Bomber should be larger than a standard tie and likewise, the cockpit window is larger, then as mentioned, you will need a donor kit that is in the 1/54 range

I could be wrong, but I believe most of the size issues stem from inconsistency in how large people thought the studio models were. I believe there was some old article where it was mentioned they were intended to be built to 1/16 scale, but had 1/24 figures in them since that was the closest size they had available. If you go with scaling off the studio models, and the studio TIEs being 1/16, then you get the Fine Molds Tie sizes. At some point that sentiment shifted and the whole ship was considered to be 1/24 scale. This was further championed by the FFG people researching the Tie scaling for the X-Wing mini game. The "official" numbers were revised and that results in the larger TIE that Bandai and FFG used.

Again, this is not necessarily fact, just info I had gathered and stored over the years. If am mistaken about that history, please let me know

Also I apologize if any of this comes off as argumentative, I am just searching for answers myself and it's a subject I love discussing, but sometimes it is hard to convey tone of voice in writing

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I'm a little confused, and I think it might be because some of your figuring is backwards -- smaller rather than bigger, or somethine... This lovely article does a good job of breaking it all down in one place. ILM built their X- and Y-Wings to 1:24 and used 1:24 pilots in them. Same pilots used in the TIEs -- but they're too big in the cockpits as compared to the cockpit set. And it sounds like you're saying the MPC kit and the filming miniature are the same size, but the SS window is twice the size of the MPC one -- but an 80mm window makes the SS TIE 1:20, which doesn't mesh with everything else I've found. Hence confusion.

 

[Analyzer]

Is the 80 mm possibly the measurement of the regular TIE studio models frame? That seems more in the ball park I think

Assuming Bandais 2.2 cm to 2.3 cm diameter cockpit frame, that scales up to 75 cm. That's pretty close to 80 mm

Now that is accurate for the regular TIEs, but since the Tie Bomber supposedly uses the MPC frame, then that would be why it is a much smaller size so maybe that is the confusion

as far as the 1/16 vs 1/24 bit

If you scale something to 1/72 from 1/16, it will actually be smaller than if you scale something to 1/72 from 1/24

So if Fine Molds went with the measurements that the Studio ties were 1/16 then at 1/72 scale they would be smaller and like wise if Bandai were sized up from 1/24, at 1/72 they would be larger

example, say the studio model frame is 8 cm, then scaling up from 1/16 to 1/72 would be 1.7 cm diameter for the frame (very close to the fine Molds size)
Scaling up to 1/72 from 1/24 would be 2.6 cm (very close to the Bandai size)

Both are 1/72 according to the designers, but they are different sizes since they started from different scales as the source

Does that make sense?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

It does. I just don't know where the 1:16 comes from. A 1:24 pilot in the SS TIE is visibly too big, meaning the ship is not only not 1:24, it has to be smaller, not bigger. But an 80mm viewport would make the SS TIE 1:20! Full size window is right about 1.6m high, so that's what any scaling needs to be derived from.

The Bandai kit nails this, capturing the spacious cockpit of the set and all that. Its viewport (at slightly over 22mm across) scales up to exactly 1:72.

If the SS Bomber uses the MPC parts, the viewport locks its scale in to 1:39 -- maybe 1:40, need more precise measurement -- and that's where I need wing measurements. The one thing I've seen mentioned over and over is that using the MPC wings means they're underscaled on the Bomber, and that you can't kitbash a 1:72 Bomber with 1:72 x1 wings. But if the viewport is what sets the scale (for everything except the Striker and FO TIE), that would mean the MPC wings and viewport are different scales. Unless people are referring to the added on flange all the way around on the Bomber, which isn't a matter of scale at all -- the wings have the same size panels, they're just physically bigger.

The length of the Bomber is a good two meters greater than the x1. That's with matching viewports, radiator panels, and fuselage diameters. So could one theoretically use a Bandai x1 wing and just add the 15mm flange seen on the SS Bomber? If someone could 3D model the Bomber greeblies in 1:72, we modelers could do the rest -- fuselage tubes and endcaps, central spar... And, with additional tweaks, we could do the boarding craft and shuttle, too...

I'm mainly trying to run down where the "the MPC wings are too small" thing originates.

 

[Analyzer]

the 1/16th bit came from an old interview with ILM model makers. I think it was in a cinafex magazine or something similar

It could have been a misprint, or maybe they mistakenly said that

And it was that interview that I think started everything down the rabbit hole

I think adding the flanges and extra bits onto the Banda x1 wings like the studio model did with the MPC would be good enough. At least for me

It is possible though that the Bandai wings are not proportionally the same as the MPC wings. I have both so I can get some measurements of the length and height and post back

Also a greeblie pack for the Tie Bomber would be awesome

 

[Analyzer]

Unless people are referring to the added on flange all the way around on the Bomber, which isn't a matter of scale at all -- the wings have the same size panels, they're just physically bigger.

The length of the Bomber is a good two meters greater than the x1. That's with matching viewports, radiator panels, and fuselage diameters. So could one theoretically use a Bandai x1 wing and just add the 15mm flange seen on the SS Bomber? If someone could 3D model the Bomber greeblies in 1:72, we modelers could do the rest -- fuselage tubes and endcaps, central spar... And, with additional tweaks, we could do the boarding craft and shuttle, too...

I'm mainly trying to run down where the "the MPC wings are too small" thing originates.

They did additional flanging to the MPC wings so they would be larger than the standard x1 wings in the same scale. I think doing the same with the Bandai should work

 

[Lichtbringer]

Hmm, making a bomber from the bandai X-1 would make him a little bit "more", so in my eyes it would suit better to the FM Tie and X-1.

That would mean i finally found a Bandai kit i have a reason to buy.