AA/SDS recasting issue...

Both of my questions have been answered... in one fashion or another...

Matt Munson hit the issue on the head.

Thomas, you're a walking contradiction. :confused You're 'ok' with AA recasting(modifying the part does not make it any less recast, Thomas. It either IS or IS NOT recast.), yet throw up a tissy about recast Vader helmets... to which the original maker was confirmed to have recast his inital helmet. You can attempt to twist the context of what I said to fit your argument all you want, but the fact remains... if you apply a rule to one person and not to another, you are hypocritical. The premise behind setting a rule and subjectively choosing who it applies to is an utter joke.

Well, I'm done with this discussion.

Thanks.
 
Originally posted by TheNuclearHorror@Jan 10 2006, 04:18 PM

Seems to me piracy is piracy, no matter if you throw sheep's wool on it.

The new warning on DVD's against copying make this pretty clear.
This is no different.

Did AA have the licence, true or false?

If false, then everything else is irrelevant.
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All this discussion back and forth is purely supposition. We all suppose that LFL has not given anyone the rights to craft and sell ANYTHING...especially something as iconic as a TK suit. Not a single one of us here knows anything for certain in regards to this whole thing.

Very suppositious...writing's on the wall...(Thanks Stevie.)
 
Gytherian, as I see it, you are twisting Sithlord's words just to make your point. That's pretty lame. I think Sithlord made it plain that he was referring to AA recasting something originating from something he made...............isn't recasting. That is not the same whatsover. Not one single vendor of vader helmets has ever had claim to the fact that they worked on the original film.

You're comparing more Apples to Orangutans

Why not leave the vader stuff for another thread and keep this one on the stormtrooper costume track?
 
can we possibly all at least agree on something? Here are some rules that i have thought up that i doubt anyone will disagree on. I dont claim to be a rule maker, they are just suggestions on ho to deal with unbanned nonmember recasting.

we do not allow any product from a banned member to be sold on our forum. Even if the product as bought in good faith, we do not want to open up a situation where people can buy from banned members thinking they can sell that later on the RPF, because this situation ould result in better profits for them, or people even selling their stuff for them here.

Next, I think any actual product proven to be a recast should not be bought and sold or allowed here. If a recaster happens to be a person who was never a member here, their products which have not been proven recasts can be sold and accepted here.

I personally would rather it be more strict on all recasters but i think this is the closest we will get to acceptable rules for this type of thing.
 
Originally posted by Trallis@Jan 10 2006, 09:37 PM

......Next, I think any actual product proven to be a recast should not be bought and sold or allowed here. 

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....that seems like a pretty broad brushstroke......

Perhaps "recast" should be better defined...
 
Originally posted by vaderdarth+Jan 10 2006, 07:38 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vaderdarth @ Jan 10 2006, 07:38 PM)</div>
Gytherian,  as I see it,  you are twisting Sithlord's words just to make your point.  That's pretty lame.    I think Sithlord made it plain that he was referring to AA recasting something originating from something he made...............isn't recasting.  That is not the same whatsover.    Not one single vendor of vader helmets has ever had claim to the fact that they worked on the original film.   

You're comparing more Apples to Orangutans

Why not leave the vader stuff for another thread and keep this one on the stormtrooper costume track?
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Vaderdarth and Sithlord,

By choosing not to read the thread(and references) in its entirety, it makes the both of you look ignorant to reality. You comments come out of left fied and are false.

Originally posted by GF+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GF)</div>
I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area and the button detail plate that goes over that area, I find it strange that the SDS has the same features and errors I made. Mine has a grooved line inside edge of rectangle with a small indented rectangle and not movie accurate, Look photos on p.9 showing the inside of AB plate, the SDS is indentical to mine including the small indented rectangle. On the originals the whole inside section of rectangle was indented, unless he copied the same mistakes I did which I doubt. those parts are definetely recasts.[/b]

To reiterate:
Originally posted by GF
I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area and the button detail plate that goes over that area...

Instant replay:
Originally posted by GF
I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area...

I'm sorry... say WHAT?.?.
<!--QuoteBegin-GF
@
I scratchbuilt ...

I must be hearing you wrong. Did you, GF, say that you .?SCRATCHBUILT?. parts that AA recast???

<!--QuoteBegin-GF

YES, dangit... I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area and the button detail plate that goes over that area, I find it strange that the SDS has the same features and errors I made. Mine has a grooved line inside edge of rectangle with a small indented rectangle and not movie accurate, Look photos on p.9 showing the inside of AB plate, the SDS is indentical to mine including the small indented rectangle. On the originals the whole inside section of rectangle was indented, unless he copied the same mistakes I did which I doubt. those parts are definetely recasts.  JOE, WHAT PART OF "AA recast my SCRATCHBUILT PARTS" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?.?

Sorry, having a little too much fun, I suppose... :)
 
Originally posted by Gytheran@Jan 10 2006, 09:10 PM
Thomas, you're a walking contradiction. :confused  You're 'ok' with AA recasting(modifying the part does not make it any less recast, Thomas. It either IS or IS NOT recast.), yet throw up a tissy about recast Vader helmets... to which the original maker was confirmed to have recast his inital helmet.  You can attempt to twist the context of what I said to fit your argument all you want, but the fact remains...  if you apply a rule to one person and not to another, you are hypocritical.  The premise behind setting a rule and subjectively choosing who it applies to is an utter joke.

Well, I'm done with this discussion.

Thanks.
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With all due respect...

The term recasting has been limited here to members of the RPF and to replicas. Therefore, the RPF has determined on its own that the rule NOT be applied to everyone. AA is a nonmember. Applying the rule to someone who is not a member here is also contradictory.

If AA is equal to GF, then nonmembers are equal to members, and therefore GF recast AA's work. Recasting means making a copy of. How the copy is made is immaterial.

Meatsock's TK helmet sales are not permissible here I assume. What helmet did it come from? Was that helmet an original sculpt? It could have come from a TE helmet copy (bad according to the CoC) or it could have come from a copy of a TE helmet (ie: GF, CRPROPs, Anon, etc.), and would therefore be permissible? :unsure

It's not twisting...it's simply taking flawed logic to its reductio ad absurdum.

The membership has been asked for it's opinion. And I've stated my case about recasted Vader helmets very clearly. A flawed case for recasting a Vader helmet was presented with no evidence. I offered to resolve the case and was denied a forum. Furthermore, if DP or whomever owned the original helmet and was not a member, recasting STILL would not be applicable by your definition.


:cheers,

Thomas
 
recast by our defenition.

I agree SDS' recasting may be up for debate because of his possible rights.

I am really posting that because in this thread there has been discussion of other recasters and maybe the rules should be better defined for how we support unbanned members.

I don't think this rule applies yet to SDS because there is still an ongoing debate about him.
 
Originally posted by Gytheran@Jan 9 2006, 09:43 PM

.... They are original, physical creations ....

.... ALL replica props are "plagierized" from someone or another.  The act of recasting is NOT the act of creating derivative works from someone's intellectual property, but to take somoene else's physical labor, steal it and sell it as their own....

....It is an accepted practice to copy screen-used items which have been lawfully purchased and in a private collector's hands.  Generally, these items are purchased with great amounts of capital($35k for a TK helmet anyone?), which its new owner can do with as he/she pleases....

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I guess I never really understood the lack of absolutes, the relative application of one's definitions to ones subjective view, and bemoaning of hypocripsy while being stridently hypocritical.

It appears that recasting is OK if it's recasting a product of a corporation or a "non-member." I don't understand how intellectual property is not the foundation of argument, but again it's property, damn the intellectual.

The logical extreme is it's OK to rip off licensees (despite the fact that it represents investment, and ultimately individuals) because it's like some Propin Hood, steal from the corp to give (actually to sell) to the little guy. An interesting bizzaro socialist paradise, I guess.

The argument goes if a recognized indivduals labor is used, despite that individual have "reused" copyrighted, trademarked, or licensed material, it only the person who does this physical "casting" that can be wronged. Somehow the logical extension of the argument does not hold up - derivitative work, regarless of changes, is a "recast"

OR is it recasting is only applied to casts which appropriate some intellectual property without compensation, but all else is recasts, ie you can only be recasted if you casted without permission to begin with ????

Swiss cheese has less holes than this logic. I guess there are good desparadoes, likje some noble clique, but the bad guys either wear white hats or do derivative work. Only true "creators" who's work by definition is not original because it is a REPLICA.

Then the icing is the fall on my a$$ laughing argument that if you pay a lot for something, then the Propin Hood rule goes into effect: "first generation" cast away.

I don't like anyone stealing anyone's work without compensation, but the hypocripsy of some appropriators are good because they have physical sweat on there brow or they are otherwise held in higher regard than other brigands is what bothers me. The hypocrpsy is palatable, then the same people turn around and denegrate fan made props because their relative compass shifts to promote certain special companies.

Moral equivocation at it's best. And I'm sure the wonderkids of Goebbel's like propaganda will twist this post out of recognizable context, just like the guy who throws the baby ruth in the pool then says, "well now I'm done with swimming, I'm done with this." No wonder we are witnessing the Decline of the West.
 
Originally posted by SithLord@Jan 10 2006, 09:50 PM
With all due respect...

The term recasting has been limited here to members of the RPF and to replicas. Therefore, the RPF has determined on its own that the rule NOT be applied to everyone. AA is a nonmember. Applying the rule to someone who is not a member here is also contradictory.
thats not true. why should we only care about members of THIS FORUM recasting when it effects the ENTIRE hobby. There are ebay recaster alerts here all the time, regarding non members. We do not support or allow recasted products here. That has always been the case.

Additional comment:
what if someone came to the junkyard and sold a recasted clonesix helmet that he bought from a non-member?
 
I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area and the button detail plate that goes over that area, I find it strange that the SDS has the same features and errors I made.


Alright, then what about the rest of that part? Just because he puts a rectangle with buttons on it doesn't make it an original creation. And if he recasted...sorry....copied.....the piece of armor which I assume he did based on his admission he only made the rectangle and buttons, which is hardly a piece of original work, and an insignificant part of an entire TK suit. The GH helmet was also slightly modified from the master casting...so does that make it an original scratchbuilt sculpt? Hardly....

EDIT: With due respect to GF, if another member here took his ab plate and produced a fascimile of it, I would see that as recasting.

:cheers,

Thomas
 
Originally posted by Trallis@Jan 10 2006, 10:55 PM
thats not true.  why should we only care about members of THIS FORUM recasting when it effects the ENTIRE hobby. There are ebay recaster alerts here all the time, regarding non members.  We do not support or allow recasted products here.  That has always been the case.

Additional comment:
what if someone came to the junkyard and sold a recasted clonesix helmet that he bought from a non-member?
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I see your point of course. But you must admit the wording of the definition makes labelling someone who is a nonmember a "recaster" moot. By definition, only members who take other members work are recasters. I'm not trying to argue with you or be difficult, I just personally find the definition of recaster here a bit awkward...

:cheers,

Thomas
 
Next person to say "recasted" gets the damned hose. Recast covers the action of recasting and tells what the object is, for example "Gonz recast that hose off of Ace Hardware parts." Recaster is someone who recasts, for example "Gonz is beating that recaster with a hose."

Levity...hehe.:p
 
I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area and the button detail plate that goes over that area, I find it strange that the SDS has the same features and errors I made.


Alright, then what about the rest of that part? Just because he puts a rectangle with buttons on it doesn't make it an original creation. And if he recasted the piece of armor which I assume he did based on his admission he only made the rectangle and buttons, which is hardly a piece of original work, and an insignificant part of an entire TK suit. The GH helmet was also slightly modified from the master casting...so does that make it an original scratchbuilt sculpt? Hardly....

:cheers,

Thomas
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Does this mean you condone what AA is being accused of? If he did make a copy of GF's changes to the ab/cod piece, I would hope that most if not all of us here would frown upon that.
 
Originally posted by CWR@Jan 10 2006, 11:09 PM
Does this mean you condone what AA is being accused of?  If he did make a copy of GF's changes to the ab/cod piece, I would hope that most if not all of us here would frown upon that.
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No. I would like us to recognize what constitutes an original work of art....or not. If GF created a new design...a new concept..... for an ab plate and AA thought that looked better than the original design for SW, and he copied that and used it on his TK suit saying it was the original suit, I would throw my SDS helmets out the window ;).

EDIt: If you make the Mickey Mouse ears rounder, it's still Mickey Mouse ;).

:cheers,

Thomas
 
You do understand recasters can also be labled as lazy people, right?

well, for the lazy...

Originally posted by GF
Hello Everyone,

I'm 100% convinced that the AB plate, Chest, Butt/Kidney plate, 1 side of forearm, AB button detail plate are direct recast from my suit or copy of my suit.

I noticed that AA made many changes since the recast issue. He modified the chest lip, extended the vertical stem on the AB plate, slightly modified the ab button plate which still derives from his first version which was indentical to mine.

I scratchbuilt the whole rectangle AB area and the button detail plate that goes over that area, I find it strange that the SDS has the same features and errors I made. Mine has a grooved line inside edge of rectangle with a small indented rectangle and not movie accurate, Look photos on p.9 showing the inside of AB plate, the SDS is indentical to mine including the small indented rectangle. On the originals the whole inside section of rectangle was indented, unless he copied the same mistakes I did which I doubt. those parts are definetely recasts.

The AB button detail plate is also recast which he now modified, the ridges are way to high and thick, my ridges are "V" shape grooves a design error of my part, you can see the same "V" design on the SDS seen on p.9
of this thread.

AA inserts snap buttons on existing formed buttons, he now removed the button alone of the top of the ridges which is usually formed within the part, but now puts a real button in place. I also see many some othe parts which seem reworked to
disguise recast, but the parts I just mentioned I'm convinced they are.


GF
 
Originally posted by SithLord+Jan 10 2006, 10:05 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SithLord @ Jan 10 2006, 10:05 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Trallis
@Jan 10 2006, 10:55 PM
thats not true.  why should we only care about members of THIS FORUM recasting when it effects the ENTIRE hobby. There are ebay recaster alerts here all the time, regarding non members.  We do not support or allow recasted products here.  That has always been the case.

Additional comment:
what if someone came to the junkyard and sold a recasted clonesix helmet that he bought from a non-member?
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I see your point of course. But you must admit the wording of the definition makes labelling someone who is a nonmember a "recaster" moot. By definition, only members who take other members work are recasters. I'm not trying to argue with you or be difficult, I just personally find the definition of recaster here a bit awkward...

:cheers,

Thomas
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No i agree, thats why i came up with those new rules.. I think anyone who recasts anyone elses stuff without permission is a recaster.
 
Sithlord, what's the surface area of the entire rectangular button plate??? LIke about 1/30th of the entire abdomen???? AA is now using thumbtacks as buttons, so it's like 10% less original than it used to be now???? Man the math is staggering......

I said, MAN THE MATH IS STAGGERING.......

Sorry, just having a little fun with ya Gytherian.


GF, I have a more lighthearted question for ya................you are touted as a pretty incredible sculptor and I have to agree with that assessment...........the question is this: Why, if all the available reference indicates that the vertical strip above the ab buttons was long and almost reached the edge of the abdomen piece, did you decide to "shorten" that strip in the first place??? I'm asking only because if you were modelling an ANH suit, the ANH reference seems clear that it was longer (from what everyone seems to say in these threads). I'm in no way picking on you GF, in fact, your suit is the only one I have ever owned. It may also be the only one I ever intend on buying. I'm quite pleased with your work. ): I'm just wondering what the "artiste" was considering at that phase of his "reworking" of the TE suit copy. And from the vast amount of reference you have been able to obtain to date............have you ever found more than one "style" of abdomen for ANH troopers (sandtroopers excluded of course)??? Further, did you ever discover any ANH trooper suits used in later films??? That were not necessarily "different" from ESB/ROTJ suits??? The answers might shed light on the often asked question of possible multiple bucks from the ANH era as well as possible variants of suits used in all 3 films.

I am asking GF this question and I'd like to hear his answer and not alot of other folks injecting the answer just because they presume to know it. Please respect my request if at all possible. GF has a more vast knowledge of this information than most. :)

Peace,

Dave :)
 
Originally posted by SithLord@Jan 10 2006, 09:59 PM
Alright, then what about the rest of that part? Just because he puts a rectangle with buttons on it doesn't make it an original creation. And if he recasted the piece of armor which I assume he did based on his admission he only made the rectangle and buttons, which is hardly a piece of original work, and an insignificant part of an entire TK suit. The GH helmet was also slightly modified from the master casting...so does that make it an original scratchbuilt sculpt? Hardly....

I'm really confused, in regards to trooper armor if I read it right, in your opinion reworking the part doesn't make it original, thus it's ok for others to recast your reworked parts? Of course it's based on your total opinion of what constitutes an insignificant part...

But, then you go into the GH helmet, and apply the same logic that it's not an original scatchbuilt sculpt since it's only been tweaked, so by the same logic you apply to trooper armor then it's AOK to recast this part? Ironically though you have personally crusaded against recast of GH's helmet on these forums...

I can't help but see a double standard, or did I misinterpret what you posted...

But you must admit the wording of the definition makes labelling someone who is a nonmember a "recaster" moot.

Well if you want to get anal about it, then banned members (also not members) actions are also moot... And if this is the stance that is to be taken by the RPF as a whole, then I guess you have just shown the perfect loophole for anyone willing to recast parts, just don't join the RPF and it's all good...
 
Here's a thoretical question for ya Flynn: What would you think if you found out that AA was told "the suit he bought, to fill in the blanks was an original screen used suit.......copied "mostly" off his own original work"???? Whether it were discovered to be wholly truthful or not????

And further, what if that were the reason behind his "rewording" the section of his website to reflect a truer source of his new suit????

I ask this because, nobody ever asks Andrew any of this stuff..........but they do seem to "theorize" what his motivations were and then relate them in these threads as facts.

Just food for thought.
 
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