AA/SDS recasting issue...

[TKBIG]

Originally posted by isd804@Jan 10 2006, 10:59 AM
If AA were a member here.....

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I apologize right off to isd804 this isn't directed at him or mean't to sound that way.

I've followed this whole debate from last year till now in it various incarnations.
I rode the fence awhile on my judgement of AA. After some conversations with members here and viewing the evidence shown I'm pretty well convinced that there are valid arguments to show that parts of the SDS armor are recast.

I couldn't help but chuckle at this remark by isd804, though. It is a hypothetical situation that I for one would find interestingly if not wickedly humerous if it indeed occured.

If AA were a member here would not GF, Gino, (TE is already banned) even myself and ANH trooper (having sculpted our own versions of ST armor) and any other armor makers here first be subject to CoC as it stands, as they recast in one form or another a members work without permission (again, if AA was a member). Regardless of the amount of modification/resculpting work done, the molds (even ROTJ) all come from the original ANH armor that has been in the past credited to AA.
For that matter would any original artist who signed onto this board, just by the act of becoming a member here suddenly place all who make items from their original works in violation of the CoC?
It would after all become a situtation of a member who was recast by another member. Regardless if they sold the item through contract work for a movie production or through the JY as a private sale (work for hire). The CoC still dictates that a member has certain rights over their works even after the sale (public or private) of those works. Although the accepted practice has been to not apply the CoC to the original movie props. But what if........ That is the part I found to be funny. This board would become divided into camp after camp arguing over who needs to be banned, what works can't be sold and so forth.

Pardon my use of this phrase but what a Sh.t storm would erupt if the studio artists themselves became members here.

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by synasp+Jan 10 2006, 01:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(synasp @ Jan 10 2006, 01:18 PM)</div>

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@Jan 10 2006, 09:56 AM
The RPF stance (maybe not the members, but the staff) should be that since AA/Sheparton Design Studios is using a current member's work to help him in the manufacture and sale of replica armor that is benefitting Sheparton Design Studios financially with no repayment to the original artist, that his product should not be allowed to be sold on the RPF unless it is specifically stated that it is a tainted product that is using recast parts.

Question is whether or not the staff will do the right thing. Based on their track record, I have my doubts.

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blab blab blab, question is whether or not gavidoc will do the right thing. Based on his track record, I have my doubts.

The problem is, this is a terrible argument. You say some crap, then sign it with "will they do the right thing?" presuming your claims are the right thing, which they are most definitely nothing more than your opinion.

I'm sure everyone is a legal genius and privy to ultra-secret information or prophetic intuition, but I humbly offer the opinion that nothing said here means anything more than each individual's opinion.

What does that mean? It means some of you--if you can be burdened with such a grand request--could humbly step down from your pulpit and rejoin us peons.

...or around and around we go... ...never to anywhere but here...

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Synasp,

Based on my track record I screwed some members of the RPF because they were being pains in the ass. I've admitted it and have no problems admitting that I did something for my own personal reasons. Now? I'm just a peon like everyone else. Even though you seemed to be confused with that. Can't remember the last time I posted in the Admin section. Am I a member of the staff still and not aware of it?

I don't see how my position on this matter is a presumption that it is the correct and right thing to do. If you as a member of the RPF Staff is saying that you have absolutely no problems with recasting then just come out and say it instead of playing games.

The stance of the RPF has always been (and based on your COBSC) is that you will not tolerate recasting. If that is the stance that the RPF staff wishes to present to the members of the RPF then the Staff has to be willing to do what their own rules says they will do.

What does that mean? Complete isolation of the works of the recaster. That means that people can't be allowed to "defend" him, he can't be allowed to sell the works, no one can promote his work, and if the recast work is being sold by an individual, the least that can be expected is for the member to inform others that it has recast parts in it.

How is that so hard to do?

So far 4 members of the current RPF staff have posted in this thread. Three have chosen to offer no worthwile position on the matter and one has chosen a cop out by saying he is grateful AA is not an RPF member.

Seems that Gytheran wanted to know what the official RPF stance was on recasters and the selling of their product. So far by not answering, if a member were to read between the lines, it would appear that the official RPF stance is that recasting is ok despite what the COBSC says.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Originally posted by gavidoc+Jan 10 2006, 01:03 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gavidoc @ Jan 10 2006, 01:03 PM)</div>

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@Jan 10 2006, 12:51 PM
Okay, now I am very confused.  So Gav what you're saying, and I assume what the others are saying, is that no SDS props should be sold here by decision of the administration because in effect SDS would be a "banned" member.

So why then are things made by EDC, GoldenArmor, Universal Armor, etc. sold in The Junkyard all the time?  How is this any different?  Shouldn't members be stopped from selling them too if they can't sell SDS items they bought (via eBay, here, or direct)?  Within the past month I've seen all of the aforementioned props by banned members sold in the Junkyard.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of the potential outcome of this thread.

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I'm not aware of EDC, GoldenArmor, Universal Armor, etc. selling works that were recast using other members stuff without their permission.

I'm not saying that AA stuff should not be allowed. Your selective interpretation of what I wrote is what is causing the confusion.

Here is the part you seemed to misunderstand fully.

.... that his product should not be allowed to be sold on the RPF unless it is specifically stated that it is a tainted product that is using recast parts.

Of course, all AA would have to do is get permission from GF to use his stuff. After the fact I know, but he would have still asked and you wouldn't have a problem anymore. Of course, he'd be admitting finally that is stuff didn't use original molds as implied.

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Gav, tell me you're joking about not knowing GoldenArmor, UA, etc. recast others works without permission? No, not EDC, but he is a banned member who's items have shown up here. Either you're having horribly selective memory to make your point or you really have been out of it too long.

 

[Trallis]

starkids:

no
reproduction of a screen used piece is special in itself.
This is different from what AA is doing, and what AA claims to be doing.

They are also alot different from AA's stuff.

As for sculpting your own stuff, there is absolutely nothing wrong wtih that in any ay for any reason

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Originally posted by Starkids1990+Jan 10 2006, 01:13 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Starkids1990 @ Jan 10 2006, 01:13 PM)</div>

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@Jan 10 2006, 10:59 AM
If AA were a member here.....

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I apologize right off to isd804 this isn't directed at him or mean't to sound that way.

I've followed this whole debate from last year till now in it various incarnations.
I rode the fence awhile on my judgement of AA. After some conversations with members here and viewing the evidence shown I'm pretty well convinced that there are valid arguments to show that parts of the SDS armor are recast.

I couldn't help but chuckle at this remark by isd804, though. It is a hypothetical situation that I for one would find interestingly if not wickedly humerous if it indeed occured.

If AA were a member here would not GF, Gino, (TE is already banned) even myself and ANH trooper (having sculpted our own versions of ST armor) and any other armor makers here first be subject to CoC as it stands, as they recast in one form or another a members work without permission (again, if AA was a member). Regardless of the amount of modification/resculpting work done, the molds (even ROTJ) all come from the original ANH armor that has been in the past credited to AA.
For that matter would any original artist who signed onto this board, just by the act of becoming a member here suddenly place all who make items from their original works in violation of the CoC?
It would after all become a situtation of a member who was recast by another member. Regardless if they sold the item through contract work for a movie production or through the JY as a private sale (work for hire). The CoC still dictates that a member has certain rights over their works even after the sale (public or private) of those works. Although the accepted practice has been to not apply the CoC to the original movie props. But what if........ That is the part I found to be funny. This board would become divided into camp after camp arguing over who needs to be banned, what works can't be sold and so forth.

Pardon my use of this phrase but what a Sh.t storm would erupt if the studio artists themselves became members here.

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That's the sad part. With the complete and total villification of AA you'll likely never see any studio artist nor anyone with the rights to produce a product based on an original they worked on ever appear in the RPF now.

 

[Trallis]

wow i feel so guilty.
Actually i don't. Don't try to manipulate what is really going on. If other studio artists come here and are honest about their product, there is no problem.

Remember our stance on AA when we thought he had the original molds.

 

[Apollo]

Originally posted by Starkids1990@Jan 10 2006, 01:13 PM
If AA were a member here would not GF, Gino, (TE is already banned)

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TE banned himself and there are a few Studio Artists here

 

[gavidoc]

I don't know who GoldenArmor is and I don't remember who UA is.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Originally posted by Trallis@Jan 10 2006, 01:27 PM
wow i feel so guilty.
Actually i don't.  Don't try to manipulate what is really going on.  If other studio artists come here and are honest about their product, there is no problem.

Remember our stance on AA when we thought he had the original molds.

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So the court case is closed, the facts are solidly known? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that.

Or is that just more of the opinion of some?

Hypothetically if any original artist came here, said their works were original, and you guys found out it didn't match up the nth degree of this level of detail as interpreted by screen-grabs, one or two examples in the public ownership, etc. you'd fry them.

Nothing he has done is beyond anything previously complained about with others including actual license holders. But for some reason there is this manic need to rip him a new one no matter what the cost, no matter what is said, without any allowance, without any quarter, without even any consideration at all that you (not you specifically Trallis) just might not know everything. The self-righteousness and absolutism is incredible in this case and I can't tell if it's due to jealousy, special interests, or just good ol' Ken Starr must have a case attitude.

And I stand by what I said. No artist will ever come here now. Not after this. Whether you feel guilty or not is your conscience, but frankly I find it sad.

I go back what Brandon said...if you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Jan 10 2006, 01:36 PM
I don't know who GoldenArmor is and I don't remember who UA is.

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Wow. I find that hard to believe Gav since most of what occurred with their copying other's works was well during your time here. But I can understand being forgetful...however I would say that greatly depreciates your ability to talk about how a recaster should or should not be handled.

 

[zorg]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Jan 10 2006, 06:36 PM
I don't know who GoldenArmor is .

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cris adrian, chaucer44, maximus313 there other names but cant remember them all

 

[gavidoc]

Chris Adrian and Chaucer44 ring a bell but I don't know what he did.

Mike,

My ability to determine what is right and wrong in regards to recast work is not diminished by who I know did what a while ago. Is Goldenarmor stuff still sold here? Was it promoted here? How often is Goldenarmor stuff sold here without people knowing who or what he did?

He has obviously been labeled as a recaster and his product sales have declined on the RPF as a result, correct?

Shouldn't the same happen to AA/SDS here on the rpf for obviously recasting the work of a current RPF member?

I would have figured you would have learned with the whole "EDC is a good guy, he'll make right and I'm going to help him" fiasco that you were involved in 4 years ago to try and steer clear from people who would openly screw an RPF member.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Jan 10 2006, 02:00 PM
Chris Adrian and Chaucer44 ring a bell but I don't know what he did.

Mike,

My ability to determine what is right and wrong in regards to recast work is not diminished by who I know did what a while ago. Is Goldenarmor stuff still sold here? Was it promoted here? How often is Goldenarmor stuff sold here without people knowing who or what he did?

He has obviously been labeled as a recaster and his product sales have declined on the RPF as a result, correct?

Shouldn't the same happen to AA/SDS here on the rpf for obviously recasting the work of a current RPF member?

I would have figured you would have learned with the whole "EDC is a good guy, he'll make right and I'm going to help him" fiasco that you were involved in 4 years ago to try and steer clear from people who would openly screw an RPF member.

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Nothing is promoted here by anyone directly except the license holders, which is why I go back to my original question...what is the purpose of this decision? SDS is not promoted here, there are no resellers here, he has no presence nor membership here, so...?

GA and UA were both represented here at several points, their stuff was sold here, you were involved in the decisions and discussions about them.

As for their sales and what happened, I have no clue. GA still has their website up and is still on eBay, and UA has appeared on eBay from time-to-time after fleeing the nation.

However my point is that the original way this thread and what was raised was stated was that nothing related at all to SDS should be sold here, discussed here, etc. Yet all those I've stated are still discussed, still brought up, and items owned by individuals (not resellers) still appear in the Junkyard. So the queestion is...if SDS discussion, sales by individuals, etc. is stopped because he is considered "banned" by the RPF, then shouldn't ALL banned member items, discussion, etc. be stopped?

As for if the item is recast or not by SDS, that is still on on-going debate by many.

Last, I am not surprised you'd bring up EDC, but sorry to disappoint you John, but I'm proud of what I did. I managed to help a LOT of people get their money or their products back when previously they had no recourse. Helping other members out of the mess they were in was hardly a "fiasco." It was only when he took on more projects I said "Sorry, but no" and bowed out. And it's only through the twisting and turning of the truth by a few disturbed individuals that it became a "fiasco" or "support" for him.

And should I go into your reliability in such things? Having played double agent as member of T4 and admin of the RPF? Played games with the whole PK/D thing? If you live in a glass house....

 

[ImprisonedFett]

My view on this topic is that AA/SDS is not being openly condemed for recasting his own work. The way I view this is that the product was labeled as "Original Moulds" meaning that peices were/are said to be 100% original. Anything other than 100% would not be "Original". Therefore, now that the product, at least in part, has been proven to not be completely "original", meaning as seen on screen 100% accurately and more closely resembles another's work, that the original slogan of "Original Moulds" has been debunked. Therefore we are no longer looking at AA/SDS as copying their own work through another's work, but instead are looking at it as a misrepresented product.
Perhaps though, a GF or TE armor was recast thinking it was 100% original. Then all that would be needed would be a statement apologizing for stating 100% of the moulds were thought to be original but were indeed not. The problem I personally see here is not that he had anything to do with the film, but instead he knew that he did not have all the moulds on hand and purposefully recasted another's work stating they were his and 100% "original".
These are my viewpoints and opinions. none of this is stated as fact, and should only be viewed as my interpretation of the topic at hand.

 

[rocketeer25]

Gavidoc and LA,

You guys need to stop baiting each other...

 

[Lord Abaddon]

My apologies Lonnie.

 

[gavidoc]

Lonnie,

Mike and I are having a civil discussion and I see no reason for you to tell us to stop baiting each other when it would appear that we are acting like the grown adults we are and not a couple of 5 year olds in need of a time out. Baiting can only be construed as baiting if the baitee feels that the baitor is baiting.

I don't feel that Mike is a baitor who is baiting a baitee and would think he wouldn't feel the same about our candid conversation as an attempt by me to be the baitor baiting the baitee.

Mike,

Sure did play "double agent" if you wish to call it that. As for the whole PK/D thing, I personally have no idea what you are talking about and would love some enlightenment from you as to my involvement in this supposed PK/D episode. Just as long as you keep in mind that I seem to have been labeled as a mysterious cat who was involved in many different behind the scenes events at the RPF well after my leave in 2003. One big one that I can think of is the creation of Prop Comm.

As for the fiasco with EDC. Yes you did get product to people who were owed by him but at the same time, you also helped present a false sense of reassurance to many members of the RPF at the time that he had actually changed his ways. While not openly promoting new projects, members here saw what you were doing, how it appeared to be helping him out, and went ahead and placed new orders with him. By stepping in, you might have helped out those already owed by EDC, but you help create a new group of individuals who were also owed by EDC.

Then when he started to take on new projects, you bowed out as you said, leaving those individuals of the RPF who had placed orders after you stepped in high and dry in attempting to get their product from him.

That is where the fiasco came in and in a way it parallels what is happening with AA/SDS. It has been proven by photo evidence that he is selling recast items. you have been a staunch supporter of AA/SDS since the very beginning. Now instead of seeing what others have seen for so long, you choose to stick by your guns and continue with the strong assumption that he is still all good and his @#$%. don't stink. You don't see the similarities?

As for UA. Was he that guy that offered really crappy castings that fled to Australia around 2000? I remember a guy like that from way back in the old ezboard days. I bought a POS heiland shroud from him that was really horrible crap.


***Edit***

Mike, is the PK/D thing you are talking about the Rick Ross Blade Runner gun? I've never been involved in Blade Runner guns. Always wanted to own one, but never got around to getting one.

***Edit***

 

[Cenobyte]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Jan 10 2006, 11:00 AM

Shouldn't the same happen to AA/SDS here on the rpf for obviously recasting the work of a current RPF member?

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Apparently not if you get a kickback deal on AA's items if you stand up for him on public forums

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by Cenobyte+Jan 10 2006, 03:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cenobyte @ Jan 10 2006, 03:54 PM)</div>

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@Jan 10 2006, 11:00 AM

Shouldn't the same happen to AA/SDS here on the rpf for obviously recasting the work of a current RPF member?

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Apparently not if you get a kickback deal on AA's items if you stand up for him on public forums

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:lol

Ouch.

 

[vaderdarth]

Originally posted by Cenobyte+Jan 10 2006, 03:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cenobyte @ Jan 10 2006, 03:54 PM)</div>

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@Jan 10 2006, 11:00 AM

Shouldn't the same happen to AA/SDS here on the rpf for obviously recasting the work of a current RPF member?

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Apparently not if you get a kickback deal on AA's items if you stand up for him on public forums

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Cenobyte, who exactly gets "kickbacks"??? Are you referring to a particular member or members with that "implication"? I assume you have proof of it as well, right???

If not, this is exactly the sort of ridiculous crap that I was referring to earlier. Thank you for becoming a perfect example for all to see.