AA/SDS recasting issue...
- Thread starter Gytheran
- Start date
Good point, however, after reading everyone's opinion time and time again in these types of threads, I do not believe that the case ruling will change the minds of those who are pro or con. Let's be honest, the courts have been wrong before (Michael Jackson) so who's to say they will be right this time, no matter which way it goes.
It will basically be a matter of taste & cost, respect and who you choose to believe. Do you prefer a TE, GF, Gino, AP, FX etc? How much are you willing to spend? If you believe the recast accusations, will you respect the said armor makers and not buy an AA suit? Who do you believe, AA or LFL? Unfortunately with the lack of availability of a TE, GF or a Gino, one who has the funds would purchase an AA over an FX most certainly. Given the fact that AA was involved, in some way, with the ANH armor production, is enough for some.
These AA/SDS threads, while interesting and informative, remind me of a song that's been re-released by different artists. It's the same song, just a different variation.
CWR
Well-Known Member
It has not been determined that AA was the original artist. From what I understand he only vacuum formed the suits and if that's the case he has no more authority than any of the others that have made armor.
I suppose you could argue that his hands touched original armor but that is a stretch to say they are from the original moulds which is what he was saying in e-mails to customers. He needed to copy a Jedi suit or another members work because he most likely does not have many if any original moulds left.
jeezycreezy
Well-Known Member
[hypothesizing]
In my opinion, no.
Recasting (in the pejorative sense) should only apply in the case of copying another person's replica.
I break replicas down into two categories:
1) Those cast from an original prop
And
2) Those from an original sculpt
In the first case someone took the initiative get ahold of an original prop. No mean feat, especially in the case of props made some 30 years ago.
In the second case someone took a lot of time to sculpt an artistic representation of something.
In either case the work they did to recreate a prop is theirs and theirs alone. Legally they may not hold the rights to the likeness, but I think we as a community should agree that they own the rights to their work without question.
It may be semantics, but this is the distinction I make in this case (ie. replicating an original prop is okay, replicating a replica is not).
So if AA did join the RPF, at best those members who make stormtrooper items might be asked to cease and desist (I wouldn't opt for this as stormtrooper accuracy would suffer greatly as a result). But they should certainly not be banned in my opinion.
[/hypothesizing]
Cheers.
TJ
DARKSIDE72
Sr Member
Therein lies the question... HOW did a fishpond maker whom is hired to vacume form suddenly become a master sculpter and design the iconic Star Wars Stormtrooper...? :confused Which up untill this point every character,ship,shot, had been conceptualized via sculpt,model,painting,drawing, storyboard etc by the LFL/Fox art department. To say or even think that LFL doesn't own the copy right to its own design of the ST is completly ludicrous. (Well we have to wait for the courts to decide that blah blah blah) Bull $hit. LFL OWNS the rights to everything and anything star wars.
If he owned the StormTrooper :lol as he claims, why would he wait 30 years to cash in on his creation? Better yet why wouldn't he undertake legal proceedings against LFL for copy right infringement and back pay for using his design?
Jedirick
Sr Member
Something that I apply to much of my reasoning when it comes to the RPF.
We are here for the collector/hobbiest. The guy here interested in building a replica prop of his own and/or acquiring those props as part of a personal collection.
When a hobbyist decides he can regularily profit from the steady production of replicas, his interest just moved from hobby/collector to businessman What many here refer to as a dealer.
Now he can be a dealer for MR or other licensed products, reproduce a mirad of machined replicas of found parts, make unlicensed blaster kits, sell armor or whatever but he needs to face the fact he is no longer "in it for the hobby." The dealer may be a foremost authority in the hobby on a particular prop, weapon or costume or a highly skilled artist or machinist BUT members here need to realize he is no longer a hobbiest. he has crossed over into an area inundated with legal criteria.
A whole new set of rules applies and how he chooses to operate his business (licensed product or not) has much stronger legal ramifications and all the risks that come with operating a business should be weighed accordingly. Unfortunately some fail to do so and draw unwanted and sometimes unwarranted attention on the hobbiest.
Furthermore, people who make unsupported claims about that business, unsubstantiated statements about the owner(s) or by innuendo link fellow hobbiests to that business need to realize they also have stepped into a world where they can be held answerable.
Its one thing to theorize and grandstand among collectors. It is whole different bag when one's statements and actions could be interpreted as affecting or in some way interferring with a operating-for-profit business.
Ask me for an opinion on a particular member-hobbiests activities and I will probably be forth coming pronto. Ask me for an opinion on a member-dealer business activities and the more legally sensitive, the less I would be inclined to offer.
To best of my knowledge only dealers have been served up C&D's for unlicensed reproduction or had any other type of related legal problems.
Obviously the RPF is a very attractive customer base for any prop dealer but let us not make the mistake assume the RPF is here to provide for dealers well being. We are here for the hobby collector. The dealers are here for the buck$.
That is why under the link for the JY, one will find;
"This section is for collector-to-collector listings, want to buy and trade threads"
While we are not going to exclude dealer-members from occassional advertising in the JY we ain't looking for any to set up camp there either.
We are here for the collector/hobbiest. The guy here interested in building a replica prop of his own and/or acquiring those props as part of a personal collection.
When a hobbyist decides he can regularily profit from the steady production of replicas, his interest just moved from hobby/collector to businessman What many here refer to as a dealer.
Now he can be a dealer for MR or other licensed products, reproduce a mirad of machined replicas of found parts, make unlicensed blaster kits, sell armor or whatever but he needs to face the fact he is no longer "in it for the hobby." The dealer may be a foremost authority in the hobby on a particular prop, weapon or costume or a highly skilled artist or machinist BUT members here need to realize he is no longer a hobbiest. he has crossed over into an area inundated with legal criteria.
A whole new set of rules applies and how he chooses to operate his business (licensed product or not) has much stronger legal ramifications and all the risks that come with operating a business should be weighed accordingly. Unfortunately some fail to do so and draw unwanted and sometimes unwarranted attention on the hobbiest.
Furthermore, people who make unsupported claims about that business, unsubstantiated statements about the owner(s) or by innuendo link fellow hobbiests to that business need to realize they also have stepped into a world where they can be held answerable.
Its one thing to theorize and grandstand among collectors. It is whole different bag when one's statements and actions could be interpreted as affecting or in some way interferring with a operating-for-profit business.
Ask me for an opinion on a particular member-hobbiests activities and I will probably be forth coming pronto. Ask me for an opinion on a member-dealer business activities and the more legally sensitive, the less I would be inclined to offer.
To best of my knowledge only dealers have been served up C&D's for unlicensed reproduction or had any other type of related legal problems.
Obviously the RPF is a very attractive customer base for any prop dealer but let us not make the mistake assume the RPF is here to provide for dealers well being. We are here for the hobby collector. The dealers are here for the buck$.
That is why under the link for the JY, one will find;
"This section is for collector-to-collector listings, want to buy and trade threads"
While we are not going to exclude dealer-members from occassional advertising in the JY we ain't looking for any to set up camp there either.
Trallis
Well-Known Member
if AA joined the RPF those members would abolutely not be asked to stop. They make recasts of an original screen used prop which costed a great deal of money and alot of work.
Why would we say stop so this guy can sell his recasts of your stuff. They're all recasters. some are honest some are not.
I don't think there should be any debate about this issue. I feel sympathy towards the people who own the armor, and its a nice suit, but this community cannot just suddenly turn a blind eye on shady business practices that have been grounds for other members to be banned in the past. THE MAN IS FLAT OUT LYING TO HIS CUSTOMERS TO GET THEM TO BUY HIS STUFF
Don't tell me he has rights to this stuff so he can advance his work. If he cared about improving his work and really cared about the hobby, he would be straight with us and give us the truth about what he is doing. He did not. He said exactly what he needed to say to result in him making the maximum amount of profit on these suits. He would not have made anywhere near as much money if he had said "this suit is a copy of a suit that is a copy of a suit from rotj, which is really similar to the suit i made."
Listen I'm sure alot of people have strong feelings, and who wouldn't after dropping that much cash, but we need to start being honest with ourselves. Just cause he is a historical figure to us and made the original stormtrooper helmets doesnt mean we have to treat him like a god.
He lied and took your money, and you sit there and support him.
Why would we say stop so this guy can sell his recasts of your stuff. They're all recasters. some are honest some are not.
I don't think there should be any debate about this issue. I feel sympathy towards the people who own the armor, and its a nice suit, but this community cannot just suddenly turn a blind eye on shady business practices that have been grounds for other members to be banned in the past. THE MAN IS FLAT OUT LYING TO HIS CUSTOMERS TO GET THEM TO BUY HIS STUFF
Don't tell me he has rights to this stuff so he can advance his work. If he cared about improving his work and really cared about the hobby, he would be straight with us and give us the truth about what he is doing. He did not. He said exactly what he needed to say to result in him making the maximum amount of profit on these suits. He would not have made anywhere near as much money if he had said "this suit is a copy of a suit that is a copy of a suit from rotj, which is really similar to the suit i made."
Listen I'm sure alot of people have strong feelings, and who wouldn't after dropping that much cash, but we need to start being honest with ourselves. Just cause he is a historical figure to us and made the original stormtrooper helmets doesnt mean we have to treat him like a god.
He lied and took your money, and you sit there and support him.
jeezycreezy
Well-Known Member
I think it's fairly clear that AA wants to at least give the impression he is selling the real deal here, even if he doesn't bang you over the head with the specific details of how he achieved his "accurate replica".
Besides, the lack of an admission of wrongdoing is hardly proof of innocence.
Cheers.
TJ
I'm not sure who/what you are reffering to but once documents are filed with the court, they are public record and it is perfectly legal to post them here. As for "leaking inside information" they would only be doing so if they are actually on the teams, (either side) and then it would be breech of attorney/client privilege assuming it isn't already public info (ie court filings, motions etc.). I haven't seen or heard anything here that would even remotely approach standards for "Dismissal" though it does make for nice drama to think that is happening....
My question is now that AA's claims are basically found to be bunk, how does that affect those banned for yelling from the rooftop's and now in the light of day are found to be right after all?
I think ultimately, the ethics of most people on this board are for sale for a few bucks. If something comes along that is cool enough, and it takes recasting it to get it, then people will do it.
We talk a lot on this board about ethics, doing the right thing, etc, but in my many years with the hobby, I've found this all to be very academic. For the most part, if someone wants something, it typically does not matter where it comes from.
Sorry to be a wet blanket and all, but my experience with the hobby has shown this to be the case.
We talk a lot on this board about ethics, doing the right thing, etc, but in my many years with the hobby, I've found this all to be very academic. For the most part, if someone wants something, it typically does not matter where it comes from.
Sorry to be a wet blanket and all, but my experience with the hobby has shown this to be the case.
DARKSIDE72
Sr Member
Only when combined with everything to make a complete blaster,saber,etc. You can legally replicate found parts all day long. LFL can't touch you.
Dealers: To the best of my recollection, it has only been dealers who have been indiscreet who have been served with a C&D and or taken to court by LFL, GF,SMT,and now AA.
Trallis
Well-Known Member
just to elaborate heres what he said to Ghost Host, this was posted by GH on the other thread. If you don't think that banner is enough, what about him saying all this?
Is he not saying these suits are made from the original molds? He's not even dancing around it or refusing to say it. He is claiming he has the original molds and some have been refurbished. Yah, refurbished meaning replaced with recasted parts from GF
Is he not saying these suits are made from the original molds? He's not even dancing around it or refusing to say it. He is claiming he has the original molds and some have been refurbished. Yah, refurbished meaning replaced with recasted parts from GF
PS, "recasted" is not a word. In a thread about recasting, we should at least try to use semi-proper grammar.
Osmotic
Member
Gytheran
I see where you’re trying to go here but I don’t see exactly what you want ‘us’ to do.
AA is not a member here so you can’t have him expelled. He hasn’t applied for membership (as far as I’m aware) so you can’t have him denied. He has no ‘official’ vender of his merchandise here so you can’t have his product removed.
The only viable action I can see is to prevent people selling their personal property which they purchased in good faith.
Not disagreeing with your stance I just donÂ’t see what action can be taken.
I see where you’re trying to go here but I don’t see exactly what you want ‘us’ to do.
AA is not a member here so you can’t have him expelled. He hasn’t applied for membership (as far as I’m aware) so you can’t have him denied. He has no ‘official’ vender of his merchandise here so you can’t have his product removed.
The only viable action I can see is to prevent people selling their personal property which they purchased in good faith.
Not disagreeing with your stance I just donÂ’t see what action can be taken.
When there were people making suits and selling them,he decided the time was right and didnt want to sit back and let others make money out of something he made..the helmets inparticularly.From what i have seen AA looks to have recast a GF suit,but he is no more and no less the same as every other armor producer out there IMO.They are all guilty of the same thing...making profit from a copyrighted item.
Trallis
Well-Known Member
recently a member was told by mods that he could not talk about selling his clone armor here because it had parts which he bought from someone who turned out to be a recaster.
I thought this action made sense, because no one on the RPF should be interested in buying recasted stuff anyway, even if they are buying it from someone who bought it in good faith.
I thought this action made sense, because no one on the RPF should be interested in buying recasted stuff anyway, even if they are buying it from someone who bought it in good faith.
That is the overall banner for the products section of the site, part of the template for all the product pages. It was there when there were just helmets that, most agree, were at least partially from original molds.
Now that other non-original mold items have been added, I agree the banner should be changed but I read it as more of a overall catchphrase than a statement about the specific product one has selected. The copy within the product window itself is what's important.
DARKSIDE72
Sr Member
First AA was a vacume former. He didn't create or design squat. His so called helmet was the first item to raise many a red flag over the inconsistencies with any screen used helmet.
Secondly trooper suits and helmets are not recent developments.
People have been building suits for a LOOONG time. GF's first suits were sculpted by him. GT recast his suit. GF and TE collaborated on GF's remastered suit with TE's ANH helmet. TE paid thousands for his screen used helmets and later a screen used ROTJ suit to later resculpt and offer the TE ANH. Then there are all the others. To claim that these guys recast AA's work is laughable.
