A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[SithLord]

Thomas, one question is bugging me about the grill impression. You examine these things to macro detail the most minute little bump, but it took two years for you to notice grill impressions on the SL? That seems fishy, and this is probably why people are questioning you with SERIOUS doubt.

I perfectly understand. But as you can see from the image I showed, and that was with the best kind of lighting I could muster (I took it last night), it is very hard to make out. You kind of have to sit there with your face right up close to the mask ready to kiss it hehe and stare for a while and then...yes...that one "X" jumps out, but just barely. I had just assumed before that the filler was just too deep and comprehensive, so I didn't really bother going back to look. However, it wasn't two years, I determined that quite some time ago, probably around a year ago. If people have serious doubt about what I say about that, then I'm sorry if they have that doubt, but what I'm saying is the truth. I only had the SL ANH for two days in my hands when I said oh looks like there's no grill....there was no grill that I could see. But there are also a cazziliion other things I couldn't see either at that time that I see now after spending every day for how many years staring at the bloody thing. :lol

So far, the TM owners who HAVE posted have posted very clear pictures and not blown up to blurriness screen caps.

You have to enlarge it to see it, to be able to make it correspond to what is a sharper detail on the SL or TD. I can't blow up high resolution complete images of these masks, so I choose small areas of what images and angles I have in hand or I just go and rephotograph them which only takes about 20 minutes.

Now, you can address this in a civil manner, but at this point, you are just repeating the same things. Just explain how you have failed to "amend" your initial viewing of the "missing grill impressions" over the course of two years since you have had the SL. It's hard to believe since no minute detail, real or perceived by you, is missed.

Well, you give me more credit than maybe I deserve but it was simply a matter of saying that after having the mask for two days, being so excited about it, and wanting to relay any new or different things about it that were different from what I called the UK masks. One thing I noticed was that there wasn't a grill in the mouth but that means it isn't visible, that doesn't mean it was never there. So I'm not sure why the misinterpretation.

I appreciate civility and it is returned in kind. If I show something that makes you or others scratch their heads, just say what is that and can you explain or show it differently and I will try my best.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

You also I think identified the original ANH as a ROTJ mask, which I'm still finding hard to accept just emotionally. :lol

I think it was an ESB style looking mask, but worn by Warwick Davis at the time of RotJ. Can't claim it was confirmed to be the ANH, it was just a probability based on the findings in photos.

Thanks, I know it is hard to see, and I will try to get a photo with better lighting but I tried different light angles and the SL has such a weird kind of rough surface there that it is hard to bring it out. The filler goes right to the top surface of the grill mesh so it is almost completely buried in it, something you don't see on the VP/TD and probably TM father.

Well, I wouldn't expect it to be the same, as it's from another lineage.

You mentioned the sanding on the neck on those casts with neck extensions before. It may be true that the neck extension was added to a cast from the UK mold and not part of the UK mold itself. But the thing is. These casts - TD, TM, VP, 20th C link back to one molding of the original... so any differences you see in the casts are not possible to be linked back to the screen used ANH at later times than how it looked at that first molding. All it does is link back to work possibly done to a cast from the original mold - the link to the screen used stops there. If you follow me.

No. Funny how that works as TM asked me not to post photos not on his account, but because you guys always get upset if I do. Yet he lets you post photos.

I always asks if it is okay with him before posting a picture of the unpainted TM, yes, as it was in the agreement not to post those in great detail - only painted casts. I can only go by the honor of that agreement, so when I post pictures of the unpainted casts, you'll know I didn't just post them on my own accord. Something you would also not appreciate people doing with casts of your helmets, which is why not many are actually showing off these high end helmets - because we are too ****ing slow to get them finished & painted.

Seriously, I suffered a major setback last summer, but it was my own damn fault. Otherwise I could have shown off my stuff earlier.

I asked Mac to leave the thread, but I don't mind you asking questions or debating things like a gentleman, which you always do.

Hmm... cannot really claim that I do. I do occasionally suffer the hissy fit and post **** I probably shouldn't have.

 

[SithLord]

You mentioned the sanding on the neck on those casts with neck extensions before. It may be true that the neck extension was added to a cast from the UK mold and not part of the UK mold itself. But the thing is. These casts - TD, TM, VP, 20th C link back to one molding of the original... so any differences you see in the casts are not possible to be linked back to the screen used ANH at later times than how it looked at that first molding. All it does is link back to work possibly done to a cast from the original mold - the link to the screen used stops there. If you follow me.

I do, and I ask myself how could they be from a different mold. The only think that links them is the filled chin vent at one point or another. I agree. Maybe you have the answer. But at this point I can't reconcile a lot of the other things I've seen. Like I can mention that the front part of the right tab has a bit of extra glue on the TM versus the TD, so it is propped up more in a way. But also the tab itself is twisted longitudinally (along its long axis) so the right side is twisted up with respect to the left...which makes it stick straight out with respect to the surface of the mask. Yet the TD tab is not twisted and instead curves with the surface of the mask. It is almost as if that one tab was taken off then put back on.

What if I mentioned that I think the tabs we see on the original ANH are not the same as the tabs on the TD/TM/VP father/20th C? I don't think they are. If that was true, then the tabs we see on the UK masks are the first tabs and the ones we see on the screen mask were put on later on, after it was molded. At least that is my theory....theory...for now.

I always asks if it is okay with him before posting a picture of the unpainted TM, yes, as it was in the agreement not to post those in great detail - only painted casts. I can only go by the honor of that agreement, so when I post pictures of the unpainted casts, you'll know I didn't just post them on my own accord.

When Pete posted the TM image, I assumed that he wouldn't have had time to contact TM and get approval for that particular image. But it seems he has license to post anything he wants of the TM? The value of not posting images isn't just about revealing detail, it is more about avoiding conflict.

Something you would also not appreciate people doing with casts of your helmets, which is why not many are actually showing off these high end helmets - because we are too ****ing slow to get them finished & painted.

I removed the images because even in my own anger there is no excuse to offend someone in the process, despite my keen interest in showing the details.

Seriously, I suffered a major setback last summer, but it was my own damn fault. Otherwise I could have shown off my stuff earlier.


Hmm... cannot really claim that I do. I do occasionally suffer the hissy fit and post **** I probably shouldn't have.

Sorry to hear that. But what stuff do you refer to? Your TM? Any finished TM is a work of art...

 

[SithLord]

Did you go to sleep Carsten? I didn't....time to get ready for work...going to be a looong day *sigh*.

 

[propsculptor]

Just to throw in a little Comedy after all the debate and Contradiction...

Contradiction Tastes good!! :lol

Interesting debate regardless...

Also a question...Has it been confirmed that Rick Baker Molded the Darth Vader ANH Helmet?

If he did, he could be asked when he molded the Helmet, did it have the Velcro Tabs on it?

 

[SithLord]

JInteresting debate regardless...

Also a question...Has it been confirmed that Rick Baker Molded the Darth Vader ANH Helmet?

If he did, he could be asked when he molded the Helmet, did it have the Velcro Tabs on it?

Yes this was part of the information I received from the previous owner about the SL ANH.

And no, the SL ANH doesn't have the tabs on top. Basically before molding they removed the tabs, and filled the six holes along with the starter holes that were I think for two tabs initially before they went with three. I don't consider them velcro per se but rather snap tabs. Velcro uses hooks rather than pins.

An interesting note about that is that the SL still has the glue ridges on either side of the center tab. I could spend pages just discussing glue hehe.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Thomas, the problem with your information about the origins is that it is all second hand. Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear. If all of the ILM masks have the same features - cast tabs, grillwork visible in the face - but yours does not, well that should give you pause.

Edit: This doesn't just apply to your information, it applies to most of it out there. We simply do not know and cannot tell by screen captures what is real and what is an artifact.

 

[oujala]

The most informative posts in this thread started on page 16, imo. You guys have answered a lot of questions I had, thanks! Only question left is how in the hell to get one of these...

 

[CSMacLaren]

Leave the thread? I don't think so. I'll watch this carefully. If you throw enough "analysis" around supposition, people will think propaganda is educational. There's nothing new under the sun.

BTW, Thomas, you did ask.

 

[SithLord]

Thomas, the problem with your information about the origins is that it is all second hand. Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear. If all of the ILM masks have the same features - cast tabs, grillwork visible in the face - but yours does not, well that should give you pause.

Edit: This doesn't just apply to your information, it applies to most of it out there. We simply do not know and cannot tell by screen captures what is real and what is an artifact.

Just one thing I'll point out because I'm not sure what you mean. The SL ANH and DJ ANH came from the so-called ILM mold, whereas the TD ANH, TM ESB, VP ANH, 20th Century line came from something else.

Well, the person who cast the SL ANH worked for LFL. And that was back in 1988. And another ILM member seemed to be in agreement about it (not Darth Jones, who agrees it came from that mold, and who's own casting came from that mold as well....he was there when they made his in 1992 and saw the mold).

One thing about it as well is that this isn't just one of a thousand molds lying around the LFL archives. It is known to be the oldest mold in the archives and considering how many production molds there should be left, that provides some indication of its importance. If it is that old then there is a reason why it was kept so long. An old mold like that taken from the original ANH helmet, and which, at least to me, appears to have been used for the ESB movie poster helmet, the MGM tour helmet, the ROTJ funeral pyre helmet, and perhaps others, indicates that it is probably something whose history is known at least by a few people that work or worked for LFL. That we have information as to who actually made the mold and around when he made it is only as good as the source I suppose, as with anything. Any additional information I would use to cross reference with what I have of course.

Because anything from that particular mold will have specific characteristics, and having studied that from good reference I have of the Darth Jones ANH helmet, a brother of the SL ANH, I can make good guesses as to what else came from that mold, because it is the case that those characteristics are not shared by masks from the UK side of the lineage.

 

[Davy Jones]

I never said that. Show me where on RPF or TPD I actually said that. I made it clear it wasn't from THE ORIGINAL MOLD..the one used to make the three or four production castings. Come on.

Dude, you totally did. I remember you saying you thought it was some sort of test helmet used by the ANH production team.

You were also showing comparisons at that time showing the original ANH helmet and your TD had the same length tubes. You actually thought the original ANH had cut tubes just like the TD and used tons of flawed comparisons to support that theory.
Now you have some other theory about the tubes. This is why its hard to take your theories seriously. You take one tiny bit of information and run with it, often claiming that you have arrived at the correct answer. Its ok to say "I dont know" or wait until more concrete evidence arrives. Much better than confusing the issues so badly.

 

[Art Andrews]

Thomas,

As with all actions taken by past staff, the current staff doesn't condone or condemn them. We can only discuss things going forward.

In regard to closing threads, you have to understand there is a public side and a private side, and I am sure you know this because you are often involved in the private side. When debates gets particularly "passionate" we end up with tons of reported posts of baiting and flaming and trolling with members on both sides of the argument demanding action. We generally try to let these debates go as long as possible, steering them back on track when the fighting gets really personal but usually, the decision to close a thread comes more from you, the membership, than from us. When the "he is baiting me" reports begin to overwhelm us and it is coming from multiple sources from both sides of the argument and we have already stepped in to remind everyone to play nice and they simply ignore it... yeah... the thread is probably not going to last.

Ultimately, you the members determine if a thread will be closed more than we do. If you want to have passionate debates (and this is directed at everyone, not just Thomas) then you need to grow thicker skins and not come running to us every time someone disagrees with your assessment of a particular issue. Again, I am not pointing out anyone in particular, but I am sure you guys know who you are. If you want to debate, then debate, but don't come running to us, asking for action and then be surprised or dismayed when we act.

The RPF loves the discussion of all props, even the ones that seem to draw the most contention like Vader, stormtroopers and anything relating to the Delorean, but if you want to debate them here, you have to be willing 1) to abide by the rules and 2) take the "passion" thrown out by those with the opposing view.

Sorry for the unnecessary arguing, Art.

I appreciate your concern about my statement, which was admittedly blunt. Now, even though there are serious Vader discussions on TPD, it isn't immune to the same sort of things that can happen on the RPF.

Years ago on the RPF we had the big Gino vs Ghosthost recast battle, and the camps on either side. Then we had the pro versus anti-SPFX battle. By that point the mods of that time were not interested in learning about Vader and even less interested in the infighting, so the hammer was put down (locked threads, warnings given out, etc.). The mods became sensitized to even the slightest hint of some kind of Vader controversy, even if it was just the usual passionate arguing that takes place sometimes among the Vader crowd. So often they would then step in very early on and prevent discussion or simply lock the thread "because it no longer served any purpose" was a classic statement I always heard. And this disinterest was something I heard from the mods directly, not just my impression of it. Now any of the mods from back then are free to correct me if I am wrong about this, or if I assume to much about what they thought about the Vader crowd at the time (or maybe it was just me :lol).

How could we continue? Even if people don't realize it, I think that from a lot of that, and perhaps things going on with the JB fiasco, the Prop Den formed with a decidedly Vader focus, where it continues to this day.

But as much as a statement that I made, it is an observation. When was the last time we had a serious discussion about Darth Vader on the RPF? Maybe I missed it (I hope not) but wasn't it the ROTJ discussion thread I started as a result of someone commenting about JRX's ROTJ helmet being inaccurate or not what it is claimed to be? Please correct me if I am wrong and there was something since then.

So I started a separate thread that ended up with nearly 25,000 views in 2.5 months before, you guessed it, it was locked. Not only was it locked, but it was reopened because discussion continued on TPD and then it went back to the RPF, only to be locked again. Now it isn't my place to say anything about the decisions of the mods as they do what they think best, but clearly there was an interest in discussing Vader on a serious level.

This thread is only 34 days old and is closing in on 10,000 views. Some threads take a year to get to that much :angel View counts are not really important and besides the point, but don't they provide some indication of interest? I know the reaction to when that ROTJ thread was initially closed. There were a lot of unhappy campers. If this thread is closed then we all contributed to its demise, I am just as guilty as the next person. But sometimes we have to get through a few moments (or hours even) of heated exchange before things clear and we can get back to talking about what really matters and what really makes people come back to this thread, or not, as the case may be.

 

[SithLord]

Also a question...Has it been confirmed that Rick Baker Molded the Darth Vader ANH Helmet?

If he did, he could be asked when he molded the Helmet, did it have the Velcro Tabs on it?

Oh one thing I forgot to reply about, according to my source Rick made the mold of the original ANH helmet during or around the time of the pickups of ANH. True? Well only as good as the source again I suppose, but that is something to go on at least and makes sense to me that they might do it at that time before things wrap up.

 

[SithLord]

The RPF loves the discussion of all props, even the ones that seem to draw the most contention like Vader, stormtroopers and anything relating to the Delorean, but if you want to debate them here, you have to be willing 1) to abide by the rules and 2) take the "passion" thrown out by those with the opposing view.

Really? The Delorean? That much passion about it? :confused (kidding)

Thanks for explaining some of the present views of the moderator team. I guess it is all up to us to be proactive in how we approach a discussion. If someone says I'm wrong, well I'll try to explain it. If someone says I'm stupid, well that's a little harder to explain. :lol

I think we are all calm now again. :confused

 

[Art Andrews]

Really? The Delorean? That much passion about it? :confused (kidding)

Something about those gull-wing doors... just drives people insane with rage... When I saw the movie 28 Days Later I thought to myself... "I'll bet anything that monkey was in a DeLorean and that is what made him want to kill everyone."

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Oops...should have said the UK mold.

As far as calm, the issue still remains with the grill in the SL. I'm sorry, but your picture doesn't show anything that anyone but you truly sees. I wasn't really trying to give you any more credit than you deserve. You take these images and nuances of casting flaws down to macro levels of photography. This is why my mind is boggled that you would miss so key a feature.

Here is my theory, and I could be way off base. The SL was doctored up before you received your copy. Some of the key things that others pointed out regarding the Tantive style helmets are not on your SL, but do apparently exist on the TM. Some of these features exist on the other UK helmets though, right?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

If someone knows Rick Baker and could actually ask him about his possible involvement in the moldmaking of the screen used ANH and what he remembers about it, that would be absolutely awesome. Nothing better than to get the info straight from the actual guy doing the work.

Wrong again. It was Brian Muir that insisted it was a casting taken off the FOURTH pull. And I disagreed with him again and again on TPD Carsten. Please go back and read that thread. I said to Brian that it couldn't be from the fourth pull because the grill is the same as the original ANH.

Thomas, just spotting a few inaccuracies in your reply to me about some of my recap notions. Was mentioned to me that there was a discrepancy with what you are saying and what Brian Muir actually said:

I told you the best that you could hope for is that it was a cast from a remould of the third mask used by special effects and gave you the reasons why.

Just wanted to set the record straight as we all should be careful about inaccurate information, as these things have a tendency to stick in people's minds. This also includes stuff I say - I should be extra vigilant in the future.

Also, regarding the rabbit ears on the TMvsSLvsOriginal.

What it looks like on the TM:

Overlay at 50%

Comp against the two

And the blurred effect to simulate the distance etc:

That is why it is basically nonsense to expect that even hi-def captures from the movie (blurred by motion) will match up perfect to the casts.

And that's how high-res pictures should look, imo, not blurry.

What I would be most interested in is seeing how this detail actually looks under the paint of the TD, but it's the same hindrance as before. The paint. And yes, I still understand your reasons for not removing it. I really do. And wish there were ways to see what was under the paint without stripping it. The paint is simply standing in the way of an accurate comparison on the details between the TD and TM... so we can see how they compare with the SL and that mold lineage.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

One thing, Thomas, with your logic about labels on these masks, then the VP has to be ESB, as it comes from the ESB mold or after as it has the neck extension. But it doesn't have the eye socket extensions... so this is all very baffling and why I cannot really understand that the neck extension wouldn't be an original UK mold feature when it has something the TM doesn't have and undetermined if the TD had either, but has the extension like the TM.

The VP has the accurate ANH lens imprint. I know you say it isn't, but it is the same lenses that are seen on your SL - even has the same nicks and wavy patterns compared to the original and the Elstree carpet photo - but the filling around the SL lenses and the eye sockets are filled in compared to the VP - same as around the tusk tubes to remove undercuts - in your words.

That's why it's so baffling when you put so much importance in small details and saying they are "earlier", when the larger details are still throwing monkey wrenches into what the deal about these masks really is and the mold(s) they come from. All we really have is the time they were made and the details they share... figure that out first, then go for the minute differences later. At least that's how I would expect scientific approach to be, no!?

 

[RKW]

Ahh......I remember the good old days http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=8750&highlight=helmet

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Fire up the Way-Back machine, RKW. Did Thomas say that the DJ, the brother to the SL was NOT from any ANH molds?