A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....
- Thread starter SithLord
- Start date
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Thanks Skynet.
I made an effort to direct people to the thread on the Prop Den as to the source of the images for this lineage. As stated in that thread:
So, similarly, if someone has an image they did not want included in the tree, please PM me about that and I will replace it. I am bound by the same disclaimer. That is also why I didn't show the tree in higher resolution. I respect Carsten's work, which is why I acknowledged it and the source, but this lineage isn't limited to the RPF, it is for the community. The number of images that are possibly not "public" are very small, namely the BM image and the TM images, but I don't know for sure, and I can remove them and simply put names if someone took offense. So anyone is free to let me know about that. I used the images for reference and will replace them with others. It was a quick and dirty attempt to make a tree, ok.
EDIT: I won't be able to work on this until later on Monday so I know a couple of people noticed other inaccuracies and so just post them here and I'll get to the changes then.
Thanks Skynet.
I made an effort to direct people to the thread on the Prop Den as to the source of the images for this lineage. As stated in that thread:
So, similarly, if someone has an image they did not want included in the tree, please PM me about that and I will replace it. I am bound by the same disclaimer. That is also why I didn't show the tree in higher resolution. I respect Carsten's work, which is why I acknowledged it and the source, but this lineage isn't limited to the RPF, it is for the community. The number of images that are possibly not "public" are very small, namely the BM image and the TM images, but I don't know for sure, and I can remove them and simply put names if someone took offense. So anyone is free to let me know about that. I used the images for reference and will replace them with others. It was a quick and dirty attempt to make a tree, ok.
EDIT: I won't be able to work on this until later on Monday so I know a couple of people noticed other inaccuracies and so just post them here and I'll get to the changes then.
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Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
I've had a couple people asking me about the branch points and there is a bit of confusion about the branches off the ANH so I'll just post a reply here too:
From the original ANH helmet going off to the left, a mold was taken by Rick Baker in the USA sometime during or soon after the ANH production. This mold is well known from the archives and almost certainly produced the MP helmet, the one that appears in the ESB movie poster in 1979. From that mold, in 1988, the SL ANH was pulled at ILM. Then, in 1992, the Darth Jones ANH helmet was pulled at ILM from that same mold. So the way I organize those three helmets is from one mold branching off and the height represents time increasing downwards.
To the right of the ANH original, we have a mold taken off the original ANH before the US mold. This mold was taken before the US mold since the tabs were still intact at the time. It is not known exactly when that mold was taken. However, it led to the TD ANH mask. Based on my study of ESB masks, they have everything in common with the TD. So, they were probably an offshoot from that ANH mold, which we know the ESB masks were ANH-like before they were modified. From that mold, and assuming there was a helmet to go along with it, the ESB helmets were made and during ESB, the TM helmet was produced, although there is more to it than that. The 20th Century would be an offshoot of an ESB mask even though it has a ROTJ dome. The VP ANH would probably be from a mask taken from the ESB mold so it looks ANH but would be from that time or a copy of something from that time.
The third line off the original ANH would be those helmets coming from the mold Don Post studios took of the original ANH helmet. Those led to the Fyberdyne/GH/Jeff style of helmets.
And then we go down the line to ROTJ and its offshoots.
Keep in mind there are errors in the later castings (and everything is open to discussion/debate) for example the Elstree ROTJ is from the 20th C not the DP Deluxe as someone reminded me. So I'll be making quite a few changes on Monday when I have time for the later castings.
I've had a couple people asking me about the branch points and there is a bit of confusion about the branches off the ANH so I'll just post a reply here too:
From the original ANH helmet going off to the left, a mold was taken by Rick Baker in the USA sometime during or soon after the ANH production. This mold is well known from the archives and almost certainly produced the MP helmet, the one that appears in the ESB movie poster in 1979. From that mold, in 1988, the SL ANH was pulled at ILM. Then, in 1992, the Darth Jones ANH helmet was pulled at ILM from that same mold. So the way I organize those three helmets is from one mold branching off and the height represents time increasing downwards.
To the right of the ANH original, we have a mold taken off the original ANH before the US mold. This mold was taken before the US mold since the tabs were still intact at the time. It is not known exactly when that mold was taken. However, it led to the TD ANH mask. Based on my study of ESB masks, they have everything in common with the TD. So, they were probably an offshoot from that ANH mold, which we know the ESB masks were ANH-like before they were modified. From that mold, and assuming there was a helmet to go along with it, the ESB helmets were made and during ESB, the TM helmet was produced, although there is more to it than that. The 20th Century would be an offshoot of an ESB mask even though it has a ROTJ dome. The VP ANH would probably be from a mask taken from the ESB mold so it looks ANH but would be from that time or a copy of something from that time.
The third line off the original ANH would be those helmets coming from the mold Don Post studios took of the original ANH helmet. Those led to the Fyberdyne/GH/Jeff style of helmets.
And then we go down the line to ROTJ and its offshoots.
Keep in mind there are errors in the later castings (and everything is open to discussion/debate) for example the Elstree ROTJ is from the 20th C not the DP Deluxe as someone reminded me. So I'll be making quite a few changes on Monday when I have time for the later castings.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
There appears to be a relationship between the Don Post Deluxe (FG) and the 20th Century facemasks. I don't believe the DP DLX mask is from an ROTJ source per se. For example, the chin triangle shape between the DLX and the 20thCent are too similar in size.
The dome of the DP DLX is roughly ROTJ configuration.
Also, the Portumac ROTJ is a recast of the DP DLX.
The Homer1138 facemask was a mod off of a Rubies FG LE, if I'm not mistaken, but check with Karo as he saw WIP photos from Florian.
There appears to be a relationship between the Don Post Deluxe (FG) and the 20th Century facemasks. I don't believe the DP DLX mask is from an ROTJ source per se. For example, the chin triangle shape between the DLX and the 20thCent are too similar in size.
The dome of the DP DLX is roughly ROTJ configuration.
Also, the Portumac ROTJ is a recast of the DP DLX.
The Homer1138 facemask was a mod off of a Rubies FG LE, if I'm not mistaken, but check with Karo as he saw WIP photos from Florian.
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Thomas, I am wondering if it might not help to add a symbol in for molds and name them (like "Rick Baker mold") as well as put dates on the lines where you know dates... With there having been multiple molds from single helmets, things begin to get a bit sticky and maybe that would help.
Thomas, I am wondering if it might not help to add a symbol in for molds and name them (like "Rick Baker mold") as well as put dates on the lines where you know dates... With there having been multiple molds from single helmets, things begin to get a bit sticky and maybe that would help.
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Really? I'll have to double check then on the Celtic...never really followed that one. Thanks.
Sure, Art, I can put a noticable dot/circle at the branch point where there would be a common mold. As far as year goes that wouldn't usually be known I think for most of the castings, just a select few.
I know I'll need to find another place for the VP ANH...that one is hard to pin down in terms of time.
I'll go through a major fix-up later today on the lineage so thanks for the ideas/input.
Really? I'll have to double check then on the Celtic...never really followed that one. Thanks.
Sure, Art, I can put a noticable dot/circle at the branch point where there would be a common mold. As far as year goes that wouldn't usually be known I think for most of the castings, just a select few.
I know I'll need to find another place for the VP ANH...that one is hard to pin down in terms of time.
I'll go through a major fix-up later today on the lineage so thanks for the ideas/input.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Cool thread Thomas! It looks both informative and pretty accurate from what I can see. I believe you are approaching it in a very scientific way.
Cool thread Thomas! It looks both informative and pretty accurate from what I can see. I believe you are approaching it in a very scientific way.
sskunky
Sr Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
I don't understand why you have to butt in with meaningless comments about other peoples threads? Not accurate, False information, incorrect assumptions etc, etc.......... And still not add anything constructive at all? No suggestions Gino? Or are we all too small and low in you esteem to understand such things therefore not worth telling or educating. This tree is a works in progress and Thomas is trying to do it correctly with help from fellow hobbyists.:cool If things are wrong and you know that for fact why not add some constructive criticism instead of nothing at all?:rolleyes
Lots of us are learning and need educating so "false information" doesn't become "fact"
We are not all so graced to know everything about SW. Some of us enjoy this as a hobby and not a secret society of non sharers and I know betters.....:rolleyes
Thomas, carry on mate. Some of us are enjoying this and learning too.... :thumbsup
I don't understand why you have to butt in with meaningless comments about other peoples threads? Not accurate, False information, incorrect assumptions etc, etc.......... And still not add anything constructive at all? No suggestions Gino? Or are we all too small and low in you esteem to understand such things therefore not worth telling or educating. This tree is a works in progress and Thomas is trying to do it correctly with help from fellow hobbyists.:cool If things are wrong and you know that for fact why not add some constructive criticism instead of nothing at all?:rolleyes
Lots of us are learning and need educating so "false information" doesn't become "fact"
We are not all so graced to know everything about SW. Some of us enjoy this as a hobby and not a secret society of non sharers and I know betters.....:rolleyes
Thomas, carry on mate. Some of us are enjoying this and learning too.... :thumbsup
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Nono, it is a branch....the so-called UK mold could have led to the TD and then to the templates for the ESB. If the TD led to the ESB then it would have a line coming from it, not just leading to it.
Ya it is ok I think he now understands what the intent of the lineage tree is and that it is a group effort. There will be inaccuracies but the point is to iron them out one way or another and just get a tree together.
Nono, it is a branch....the so-called UK mold could have led to the TD and then to the templates for the ESB. If the TD led to the ESB then it would have a line coming from it, not just leading to it.
Ya it is ok I think he now understands what the intent of the lineage tree is and that it is a group effort. There will be inaccuracies but the point is to iron them out one way or another and just get a tree together.
RBJ
Sr Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
ahhh..OK..I just wondered how since the original TD has never been stripped to a raw casting to examine, it could be put so high in the lineage tree..I think I got it now..
cool project!
Am I missing it , or is the DS 20th cen not on the tree yet?
ahhh..OK..I just wondered how since the original TD has never been stripped to a raw casting to examine, it could be put so high in the lineage tree..I think I got it now..
cool project!
Am I missing it , or is the DS 20th cen not on the tree yet?
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Thomas, I want to preface my comment by saying we have all been over this before on the Den, and I mean no offense.
That said, aren't you putting the TD a bit higher on the list than it should be? I mean, cut down tusks and various cracks that do not match up with anything else.
The thing is, this is all opinion. Some of it is correct, but the TD thing...well, you have been pushing that particular face for a while.
Edit: RBJ also asked the same question, but last I was there, no "consensus" was reached upon the TD.
Thomas, I want to preface my comment by saying we have all been over this before on the Den, and I mean no offense.
That said, aren't you putting the TD a bit higher on the list than it should be? I mean, cut down tusks and various cracks that do not match up with anything else.
The thing is, this is all opinion. Some of it is correct, but the TD thing...well, you have been pushing that particular face for a while.
Edit: RBJ also asked the same question, but last I was there, no "consensus" was reached upon the TD.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Yeah but it's not a question of accuracy or reworking, the chart is about lineage.
Yeah but it's not a question of accuracy or reworking, the chart is about lineage.
RoCKo
Sr Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
i´m definatly no vader expert so i really can´t judge about what is true or what is not
BUT
i really appreciate your work to finally do a linage tree like this!
Vader helmets are one of the biggest mysteries in the Star Wars universe to me and i´m sure to a lot of other members too!
thanks Thomas!
i´m definatly no vader expert so i really can´t judge about what is true or what is not
BUT
i really appreciate your work to finally do a linage tree like this!
Vader helmets are one of the biggest mysteries in the Star Wars universe to me and i´m sure to a lot of other members too!
thanks Thomas!
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
Lineage is a question of accuracy. Claims were made that did not hold water regarding the TD.
Lineage is a question of accuracy. Claims were made that did not hold water regarding the TD.
vaderdarth
Master Member
Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....
I think you guys misunderstand, the TD is a mystery to be sure. But it has characteristics of both a precursor to the ESB helmets as well as a direct connection to the ANH screen used helmet that appears different from the other ANH screen used derived helmets. I don't think anyone is trying to mislead you. It's been discussed at length, but The TD is certainly high in lineage, but an anomaly at the same time. Unless I am mistaken, that is what Thomas is trying to convey the way it's charted out. From the evidence I have seen in person, it is charted exactly where I'd keep it for now.
And with all due respect, this ain't "The Den" and lots of folks aren't privy to that information. No issues whatsoever having similar threads on different forums. Not everyone clings to "all" vader related forums.
As for gino's injection of opinion in this thread, he's been asked multiple times over the past several years to stay out of certain people's threads and he can't seem to get the message. Both myself and Sithlord are two of those certain people that he has been warned to avoid. So what's his major malfunction??? Maybe the mods can clarify it for him.
I think you guys misunderstand, the TD is a mystery to be sure. But it has characteristics of both a precursor to the ESB helmets as well as a direct connection to the ANH screen used helmet that appears different from the other ANH screen used derived helmets. I don't think anyone is trying to mislead you. It's been discussed at length, but The TD is certainly high in lineage, but an anomaly at the same time. Unless I am mistaken, that is what Thomas is trying to convey the way it's charted out. From the evidence I have seen in person, it is charted exactly where I'd keep it for now.
And with all due respect, this ain't "The Den" and lots of folks aren't privy to that information. No issues whatsoever having similar threads on different forums. Not everyone clings to "all" vader related forums.
As for gino's injection of opinion in this thread, he's been asked multiple times over the past several years to stay out of certain people's threads and he can't seem to get the message. Both myself and Sithlord are two of those certain people that he has been warned to avoid. So what's his major malfunction??? Maybe the mods can clarify it for him.
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