Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

It's not supposed to be the camera in a documentary. It's supposed to be a camera held by a tourist in an emergency

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It depends on the movie/show, some is supposed to be found footage while others, like BSG, did it to try to mimic documentary camera work. Regardless, I've never seen real handheld footage look as shaky as they do when they deliberately try to imitate it, it's almost as if the director sees the footage, yells cut and reshoots the scene if it's not shaky enough. Like I said before, a documentary cameraman with a handheld camera is going to do their best to try hold the camera as steady as possible so as not to make the shot all herky jerky looking, even a regular person with a cell phone does their best to hold it steady.

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I think the key, like everything, is what best serves the story.

I'll never forget the first time I watched ESB with an eye toward cinematography, in college (I had seen it literally countless times growing up but had never really examined it compared to the other two from a filmmaking perspective). The tracking shot on Leia as they close the shield doors on Hoth hit me like a ton of bricks. They used track! The camera is telling the story along with the characters! ANH is all pans and tilts! It packs such a powerful punch and doesn't take you out of the story - it's the first time in the trilogy that we feel Leia's love for Han and Luke so viscerally, and it's Kershner's decision to track - something that literally doesn't happen in all of ANH - that drives it home so well. It's a revelatory moment in the trilogy, emotionally and cinematically, for me.

Even Lucas knew he had to move the camera around for the Death Star battle. I wouldn't call it shaky cam, but it's POV for sure. You feel like one of the Red Squadron, and that's because it's the best way to tell that part of the story.

I agree that if TFA is filled with what looks like rubbernecking iPhone footage, it will be distracting (not to mention it will quickly date itself). But I think it's possible to do without being overbearing and without making us feel like there's a cameraman - I think the LOTR trilogy did a nice job of using handheld to good cinematic effect without resorting to anything that felt documentarian or cheap (his horror shots and Dutch angles are another story). You felt the chaos of battle without ever feeling like you were watching "footage." Hopefully JJ will thread the same needle here.

Because the fact remains, as much as we may not want to admit it, that actual found footage has influenced the way we watch movies. When we see a smash zoom, it puts us, on some level, in the story as a viewer, because we've seen enough home movies and phone videos that our brains immediately and subconsciously tell us "this is real!" And that's a button that can be pushed to good effect in the right hands and in the right moments of a story. The first shot of the Falcon in the original teaser, where the rotation of the camera can't quite keep up with the flight of the Falcon until those TIEs are right on it, is straight-up zoomy shaky cam, but it's a shot that left me breathless when I saw it, and still does. It's not a shot you'd see in ANH, but it is pure, unadulterated Star Wars. If JJ can keep that up without going voyeuristic, I think he'll pull it off.

That said, part of what I love about SW is its love for its influences, and its ability to reference John Ford and Kurosawa in sci-fi, to put us on a strange and exotic planet with life or death stakes but keep the camera on sticks and let the characters tell the story. So it's a fine line to walk for sure.

UGHHH I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL DECEMBER
 
As an interesting twist to this conversation, here's a surprising quote from George I found in an American Cinematographer article about the original film:

"I wanted the seeming contradiction of strange graphics of fantasy combined with the feel of a documentary."

...

Realizing his needs, George Lucas searched for a more-than-capable director of photography. After considering a number of people, he hired Gil Taylor, basing his choice on Taylor's cinematography for Dr. Strangelove and A Hard Day's Night. "I thought they were good, eccentrically photographed pictures with a strong documentary flavor," says Lucas.

So... maybe a little shaky cam isn't too far off of what George had in mind?


(It's funny, though, of all the phrases I'd use to describe Star Wars, "strong documentary flavor" would never be among them.)
 
...Next on the list is those fast zoom in and outs. I wonder who did all of this first i.e. invented this visual style (that seems to be ao unfitting for a star wars movie).

Those are called "snap zooms," and really came into being in the 1970s thanks to the invention of faster telephoto lenses.

SB
 
(It's funny, though, of all the phrases I'd use to describe Star Wars, "strong documentary flavor" would never be among them.)

Have you ever seen the rough cut/workprint? Missing a lot of effects scenes, but the temporary editing has a lot of the feel of a war documentary -- lots of pans across the pilots in the briefing as they're hearing about what they're going up against... a lot more footage, and more leisurely, than made it into that scene in the final edit.

--Jonah
 
So was Star Wars a source of inspiration to Ken Burns?

Have you ever seen the rough cut/workprint? Missing a lot of effects scenes, but the temporary editing has a lot of the feel of a war documentary -- lots of pans across the pilots in the briefing as they're hearing about what they're going up against... a lot more footage, and more leisurely, than made it into that scene in the final edit.

--Jonah
 
Those are called "snap zooms," and really came into being in the 1970s thanks to the invention of faster telephoto lenses.

SB

Yes, of course, but I was referring to the visual style that was used in e.g. NuBSG, with a quick zoom in and zoom out and focusing being a part of it. Boy do I love snap zooms in vintage Martial Arts and exploitation movies:D
 
I watched Jedi today on a plane.

And I realized one "motif" that I hope Abrams breaks with episode 7.

The wilhelm scream. I can't believe how many I heard in Jedi.

Retire it now please
 
Although I agree that it is a part of star wars, it kinda breaks the fourth wall a bit. It's like the director is winking at you.

Wink wink nudge nudge

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Also, watching jedi, I realized what loses me on that film.

They really missed the mark on matte paintings. That moment with Han saying goodbye to Lando is just awful. I would have killed for an actual rebel hangar

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That is a rule I wouldn't mind seeing broken. I am pretty tired of that sound being used in any new movies.

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We should start a pool around the possibility of "I have a bad feeling about this" being used in 7

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Yeah I don't think any of us would take you up on that bet.

Good master Wilhelm will be in there somewhere as well I assume.

But honestly, I hope that's where it ends. Fan service is so cheap, and this movie doesn't need to pander to be successful. I really hope we don't get any "never tell me the odds" or "bantha poodoo" or "I love you," "I know" or any number of other button-pushing nonsense. One of the few silver linings of the prequel trilogy is that it threw into stark relief what Star Wars fans DON'T want in their Star Wars movies.

As someone said earlier in this thread, folding the mythology in on itself like that only makes it a smaller, less interesting world. One of the things that makes Star Wars great is that it paints the picture of an enormous, mysterious galaxy full of individuals.

I remember reading somewhere that there's a saying in some EU novel about how you should "never tell a Corellian the odds." It made me so mad! It reduces Han's awesome outburst to just a mantra that presumably everyone on the whole planet recites from birth, as though there's an entire civilization of people with an arbitrary lack of respect for statistics. It makes Han just one of literally billions. Who would ever want that?!
 
It's important to consider Lucas' documentary comment in context. The genre has evolved a LOT since the mid 70s! It wasn't like the stuff we can binge watch on Netflix now. Film was expensive to shoot and documentary filmmakers often worked quite hard to set up quality shots. Lucas was mostly expressing a desire for a naturalistic look, for using a lot of natural lighting, for allowing the natural limitations of the sets and staging to restrict their camera angles, etc. I think STAR WARS did have a very natural aesthetic, and so he succeeded in that regard.

By Empire, the dramatic cinematography was dialed way up! Compare Obi-wan vs Vader to Luke vs Vader in how they're lit, choreographed, shot, and you'll understand where Lucas was coming from.
 
Very true.


In 1975-76 Lucas & Kurtz were completely preoccupied with just trying to make the audience buy it. Before ANH was released it was an open question whether the audience would suspend their disbelief enough to even give this kind of movie a try.

At that time 2001:ASO was still a fresh memory as the most successful & believable space movie ever made. Its entire tone & dramatic mojo was practically opposite SW.
 
I have a rather sad story to tell.

I have a cousin (in her early 30's) who hasn't seen Star Wars much and only saw episode 4 about 2 months ago.

That's not the sad part, as much as that in itself is sad...

I have a media room and one of my other younger cousins wanted to watch Episode 2. Partway in she comes in seeing a young Obi Wan talking to Dex at the diner and was asking about traveling back in time for that episode and had to explain it was the prequels and is him as a Jedi Master before the original films. She looked for a few seconds more and then said, "Well gosh if the other ones looked like this I would have watched the others a long time ago!" I shook my head and said, "I can't believe you said that."

That hurt. I was pretty surprised given our age gap isn't that far apart.

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