Is the seller responsible when a package goes missing or can he keep the buyer's money? Found parts deal gone bad with Diego86

[Anakin Starkiller]

Hello everyone,
In this thread, I'd like to hear people's opinions on an issue of seller responsibility. I've posted it here because the issue has come up over a recent SW prop deal gone bad between myself and Diego86.
However, I think that the implications of this problem go beyond this individual case and stretch to a general question that is important to buying and selling within the RPF community.
Whenever I've sold a product on the RPF (or anywhere on the internet) I've always been of the belief that it was my responsibility as the seller to deliver the product to my customer. When shipping problems occur, I assumed the responsibility to make it right. The way I see it, the job of the buyer is to pay for the item and to make sure that the money gets to the seller. The job of the seller is to ship the item to the buyer and make sure the product gets to the buyer. When I've sold items on the RPF that have gotten lost or damaged, I either refunded the buyer's money or I replaced the damaged item. I don't think it's ethical for a seller to keep a payment when a package does not get delivered. I don't think I'm alone on this
When I ask the google hive mind "Who is responsible if a package get's lost?" I get a clear answer "SELLER"
who is responsible when a package gets lost - Google Search
Now, as to the specifics of the dispute between Diego86 and me.
On October 24th, I sent Diego86 $193.15 through paypal for an original Exactra 19 bubble lens. The breakdown was 140€ + 15€ shipping. I paid F&F on paypal since Diego86 is a member on the RPF in good standing and since I didn't expect to have to file a claim against him.
He shipped the lens on the 25th, choosing the cheapest way possible, spending 8.60€ on shipping, and keeping the rest of the shipping money for himself.
According to USPS tracking, the package cleared customs on November 10th, but it never showed up at my door and there is no history of the shipment in the USPS system after that.
Since then, I've e-mailed my postal service several times and called them as well. But, they cannot provide me with any help. Also, since I was not the seller or shipper, I can't file a claim or seek any redress. I asked Diego to try and help on his end, but he's replied that there's no point since he's sure his post office can't do anything. I've asked him to contact the USPS. But to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done anything on his end.
Today, I contacted him and told him that since the package is lost, and since the item is unique, I would like my money refunded. He responded that it's not his fault that the post office lost the package, and that since I paid via F&F he's not refunding my money. I told him that the seller is responsible for the shipment. "The way I see it, if I sell an item and it never gets delivered to my customer, I don't get to just keep his money and say 'oh well, your loss.'" He responded that he doesn't see it that way.
Diego argues that he's not responsible for the shipment because I did not pay him extra for insurance. I find fault with this claim for two reasons.
First off, shipping insurance is for the seller, not the buyer!
When I sell property, on the RPF or otherwise, I insure my shipment in order to protect myself, not my customer.
If the package gets lost, I can claim the insurance and get reimbursed the money that I'm out. It's not his responsibility to buy insurance to make sure he gets what he paid for. That just sounds crazy to me!
Secondly, I actually did send Diego more money than the 8.60€ that he spent on shipping. I paid him 15€ for shipping. And I also paid the Paypal fees on the transaction, so he received the full amount. He paid 8.60€ for shipping and kept the change for himself, choosing not to insure the package with the extra money that I had sent nor to refund the change to me.
He's stopped responding to me in our private conversation. So, I'm bringing this issue to a public forum to ask what everyone here thinks. Is the seller responsible for getting the item to his customer or not? If I sell an item and my buyer never gets it, do I get to keep his money?

 

[JoeG]

So, obviously there's a few things that have gone wrong here, but yes, in my opinion, the seller is responsible for the item until the buyer gets it. If its lost during shipping, the seller should do everything in their power to try and track it down. If no insurance was purchased and the seller wishes to continue to have a good reputation as a seller, then you would think they would do whatever possible to make the buyer whole again. Even if that means having to take a loss. If the seller had purchased insurance to protect themselves, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Speaking specifically to this situation, you obviously messed up using the Paypal F&F option. No matter the seller's rep, it's just not smart to do it. Also I'd say since you're calling this person out, you should also tag him in your post.

 

[Apollo]

Diego needs to man up and either needs to start an investigation on where the package is or refund your money

 

[stussy]

You are in the right, seller is responsible to get the goods you have purchased to you. If not, refund your money. Pity you trusted him and paid friends and family. Clearly he turned out to be neither!

 

[cwoodreplicas]

Probably not going to be helpful here - personally, I believe the blame lies with both parties but It entirely depends not the situation.

For example, If I buy something and the conversation about insurance hasn't been explicitly had, then I think it's reasonable to expect that the seller will insure it or declare the right value to the mail company, so that it's covered. If it gets lost/damaged, its usually up to the seller to make the claim and refund the buyer

On the other hand, Im sure many of us are guilty of 'marking down' for customs etc. That puts great risk on the item being lost and the claim not being possible. In this eventuality, it's the buyer who should take on that risk. I wouldn't expect to ask a seller to do that, only for it to go missing and I demand my money back. That risk is on me, as the buyer.

On your case - you paid via F+F, a risky thing to do (one that Ive done many times) and that takes away a safety net of PayPal - which is very useful for the buyer. If you both discussed insurance but you said that you didn't want it, or that it was marked down, then I also believe that you can't claim on this.

As you however didn't talk about insurance, I agree with you should be refunded for this and honourably he should refund you - or at least come to a 50/50 agreement and both learn a lesson on F+F PayPal!

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Secondly, I actually did send Diego more money than the 8.60€ that he spent on shipping. I paid him 15€ for shipping. And I also paid the Paypal fees on the transaction, so he received the full amount. He paid 8.60€ for shipping and kept the change for himself, choosing not to insure the package with the extra money that I had sent nor to refund the change to me.

So, to answer your general question, yes, in my view the seller is responsible for the item getting safely to the buyer.

Couple other things to mention: first is this from the selling guidelines here, #12 on the list, not something I see enforced frequently but it’s the rule:

A seller may NOT request PayPal payment be made as a "gift" (this means choosing "I'm sending money to family or friends" from the Send Money page in PayPal). A seller may NOT request buyer pay for PayPal fees. If a seller chooses to accept PayPal, all fees should be calculated into the sales price.

Second: you said you paid PayPal fees? But you also said you paid F&F? In my understanding there should not be any fees when paying F&F, hence why buyers sometimes want to use it when buying props on here or elsewhere.

Going forward I can say, this is a good illustration of the value of using PayPal’s built in protections (which are *not* included with F&F.) I have used F&F a few times without issue, but I will never do it again, either as a buyer or seller, because it’s always possible there might be issues and F&F can create situations where the issues are harder to resolve.

Hopefully the seller will decide to do the right thing or the item turns up eventually.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Second: you said you paid PayPal fees? But you also said you paid F&F? In my understanding there should not be any fees when paying F&F, hence why buyers sometimes want to use it when buying props on here or elsewhere.

The fees were reduced with F&F, but over a certain amount there was still some that I had to pay, also there were still some conversion fees and a little bit I covered.

 

[Montagar]

Couple other things to mention: first is this from the selling guidelines here, #12 on the list, not something I see enforced frequently but it’s the rule:

It's enforced every time it's reported.

 

[TazMan2000]

The seller should refund you your total purchase price. He should not hide behind F&F. Unfortunately, that is why I never use F&F to purchase a product, from even the most respected members on here. If it's a business transaction of goods for cash, it's not F&F. If I can't drive over to their house and knock on their door, it's never F&F. (And why would I ship, when I can drive over...for that matter).

Lately, shipping via USPS has been hit and miss, which has been commented here quite often. The seller should have shipped via an insured method, and paid the insurance, putting in the extra cost of shipping towards the buyer.

TazMan2000

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

To answer a couple of questions CWOODREPLICAS posed.

I never asked him to undervalue the package on the customs form

As to paypal

On October 24th, Diego wrote in a private message
"140€ + 15€ shipping (basic but tracked, equal to your “First Class Mail”) = 155€
Diego
Also you have to send payment in € (not $).
Diego
If you pay as G&S add 6% fees.
Diego
Diego Silvestri
My paypal is: XXXXX@gmail.com"

Now he's saying "you have lost your claim rights on a possible lost shipment when I CHOOSE to pay as F&F. "

This seems ridiculous to me! As a seller, if someone pays me via friend and family, I take that as a personal marker of their trust that I will deliver no matter what. It is not an opportunity to wash my hands of the transaction, keep their money, and say "Oh well, sucks to be you. I have your money one way or another!"

 

[Jagjaguwar]

It's enforced every time it's reported.

Good to hear! I didn’t mean to suggest that mods are being lax with enforcing the rules, but I see that it was not worded clearly. I just meant that I think many buyers don’t hold sellers to this, when they ought to (for the protection of both parties.)

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

edited

 

[Darth Lars]

If the buyer and seller had agreed that the shipment should be sent insured then the seller is responsible for making sure that it is sent insured, and if the package gets lost, to file an insurance claim. The buyer is entitled to a refund first when the seller has got the refund from the shipping company, or if the seller has screwed up in some way.

But if the buyer and seller had agreed not to have it sent insured then it is implied that the buyer has accepted the risk that it could get lost in shipping. If it then gets lost then the seller does not have any responsibility for reimbursing the buyer.

I have always gone by, and expected these rules here and elsewhere. A seller doing anything above that would be because he/she is a good guy, going the extra mile to make people happy.

However ... Skipping on insurance is for low-cost items, below $20 or so. It would be pretty much expected for something worth $100 or more to be shipped with insurance.
If that is then not the default option, then you would be a bad seller. A buyer of a >$100 item should have reacted to the shipping option being uninsured and not agreed to it.
Therefore, I think they are in this case both at fault for negligence and should split the difference.
---
BTW. Be aware that shipping can be very slow around the Holidays. I've had packages that were sent in November that arrived overseas in February. When posting First Class Mail internationally, the sender often has very little control over which type of service is actually used in the receiving country. Maybe wait a little more?

 

[Diego86]

Today, 12/19/21, my second daughter was born 34 weeks premature. Both she and my wife are in the hospital and I don't have time right now to answer you here or privately to your ridiculous question. I honestly don't even know why you asked the question here since I personally have never sold ANYTHING through RPF, including the item I sent to you. That said, don't worry. I have nothing to hide and I will present my reasons as soon as possible.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

If you pay as G&S add 6% fees.

Yep, demanding this 6% extra would be an issue when selling here, as described above, but I’m not a mod and so I couldn’t speculate as to how that gets sorted out now. Not sure how much they actually like to get involved in these sorts of issues after the fact, but it’s worth trying. Hopeful you can both work something out in any case.

 

[Johnnyb]

100% the seller is responsible for getting the product to you! I always find it strange when a seller says it’s up to the buyer on what insurance you want??? The insurance is a way to protect the seller as they have to make the claim as they paid for the shipping when they dispatch the product.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Today, 12/19/21, my second daughter was born 34 weeks premature. Both she and my wife are in the hospital and I don't have time right now to answer you here or privately to your ridiculous question. I honestly don't even know why you asked the question here since I personally have never sold ANYTHING through RPF, including the item I sent to you. That said, don't worry. I have nothing to hide and I will present my reasons as soon as possible.

I obviously couldn't have known about your wife's condition or her miscarriage. If you'd said anything like this in private,--even something as brief as "I have a family matter right now"--I would not have pressed the issue today. I posted here on the RPF because you said specifically, not less than an hour ago, "I urge you to publish this wherever you want because I am interested in knowing the opinions of others on this type of issue."

I hope and pray that your family is ok.

 

[Vmasterbuilder]

100% the seller is responsible for getting the product to you! I always find it strange when a seller says it’s up to the buyer on what insurance you want??? The insurance is a way to protect the seller as they have to make the claim as they paid for the shipping when they dispatch the product.

100% correct Johnnyb.
I always cover everything I send now, too many problems over the years, now I would rather have that safety net for me and any buyer.
hope you both sort it out soon.
Also praying everything goes ok for you Diego..

 

[TazMan2000]

With Diego86 not being a Premium Member, I suppose you can't enforce the rules on a private sale. However, since both of you agreed to making this squabble public, and the consensus here is obviously on Anakin Starkiller's side, I guess that it is a lesson not to deal with Diego86 in the future for every other member that has read this thread. To me, a transaction between members in a community such as this, has to have some sort of punishment for the offending member. Reputation or termination of membership.

TazMan2000

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Given Diego's recent post revealing his family. I have no interest in continuing this debate at this time. Whether or not I agree with how he conducted himself in our deal gone bad, Diego needs to concentrate all his energy on his family right now.