Could Disney finally give us the remastered, unedited Star Wars we want?

I don't disagree. I have just been arguing the morality of the underlying principles.


Legally speaking it's a whole other story, and one where I fear we will get increasingly screwed in the future for the sake of protecting IP. IP has become the bread & butter of our economy rather than physical manufacturing. The problem is that the copyright holders have gradually shifted the "burden of proof" onto the public whenever there is a question of IP rights versus private property rights.

This is wrong IMO. It shouldn't be the public's problem to prove that people have the right to do something with their own private property. It should be the copyright holder's problem to prove that people don't have it.

I think you misunderstand the basic lay of the land with respect to copyright law. Most of the time, the people getting nailed for infringement are getting nailed legitimately.

I haven't heard of any recent copyright cases that came down to anything other than either a challenge to the underlying facts (e.g., "I didn't pirate your music. I bought those albums legally!") or a claim of "fair use." The thing is -- and this is something that almost nobody outside of lawyers think about -- fair use is what's known as an "affirmative defense." If you argue fair use, what you're basically saying is "Yes, I infringed your legitimately copyrighted work. But it was ok that I did so because [insert argument here]."

When you raise an affirmative defense, the burden of proof shifts to you proving that your defense is legitimate. So, you'd argue something like "Yes, I showed the entirety of Star Wars to my 10th grade English class..." (the admission) "...but it was ok for me to do so because it was for educational purposes, we were studying storytelling structure, and the copy that I used was a legally paid for copy." You'd have to prove all of that, if you made that argument.

Most of the arguments that people come up with on internet forums about copyright are based on an underlying ignorance of the law, or operate from a sense of some kind of personal ownership that they don't actually have. Copyright law is pretty specific and, at least in terms of the basics, pretty straightforward. The rightsholder holds all the cards. Their ownership of the work is almost never in dispute, so all they have to do is show that you copied, displayed, performed, made a derivative work, or exercised other exclusive rights reserved to the rightsholder, and you're hosed.

I agree that there's "creep" in intellectual property law, but it tends to occur more in the sense of what is and isn't afforded protection as being a derivative work, or where trademarks end. I don't think we have too many issues with IP rights vs. private property rights, though. Most of the time, what we have is ignorance of the nuances of the law, rather than the law actually shifting all that much against the public. In fact, I'd actually expect that over the next 20 years, you'll see far FEWER instances of conflict over private property rights vs. IP rights, because people will be buying physical media containing licensed IP less and less (and will be streaming or paying for a subscription for it more and more), thereby removing the sense of personal ownership. (e.g. "It's my movie. I paid for it." No, you paid for the disc, which you own. Paramount owns the movie ON the disc.)


All that aside, if someone makes the choice to engage in an act of civil disobedience, that's their choice. If someone wanted to download a bootleg of the OOT as some kind of protest against Disney's continued refusal to release a restored version, hey, that's their choice. All I'm saying is, no amount of moral debate will change the legalities of it. Go ahead and fight the power all you want there, Chuck D, but do so with the full understanding and acceptance that you're breaking the law.
 
I don't disagree. I have just been arguing the morality of the underlying principles.


Legally speaking it's a whole other story, and one where I fear we will get increasingly screwed in the future for the sake of protecting IP. IP has become the bread & butter of our economy rather than physical manufacturing. The problem is that the copyright holders have gradually shifted the "burden of proof" onto the public whenever there is a question of IP rights versus private property rights.

This is wrong IMO. It shouldn't be the public's problem to prove that people have the right to do something with their own private property. It should be the copyright holder's problem to prove that people don't have it.
I'm still not sure what moral or principle gives anyone the right to deface and distribute someone else's property - even if it is intellectual property.
 
Let's say I go to Walmart and buy a new X-wing toy. I take it home, open it up, and repaint it. Then I put it on Ebay and sell it, describing it as a "used & repainted X-wing toy."

According to your argument this is infringing on the intellectual property of the X-wing's design. I did not get Lucasfilm's/Disney's permission before altering and reselling it.



This is no different in principle from selling a repainted Superman suit - or a re-edited Star Wars DVD.


Making this illegal means taking away the rights of ownership from the consumer. The consumer is not stealing money from the artist/seller, nor is the consumer attempting to take credit for the artist/seller's IP. The consumer is just doing something the artist/seller is not happy about, which is not against the law. The law should not be a tool of artist/sellers to start dictating what private owners are allowed to do with their own property.

The only way around it is to have everything with intellectual property being "leased" or "rented" (complete with a signed contract) rather than purchased outright by the consumer.

Ok... lots of incorrect assumptions in your argument here. The basic difference is "property" vs. "intellectual property".

You buy your X-wing from Wal-Mart, you repaint it, and you resell it... no problem here at all. You originally bought it from the retailer and therefore the retailer gets their cut, the manufacturer gets their cut, etc. all the way to Lucasfilm. As with any physical good - a chair, a car, a toaster - you bought it, you own it and you can do anything you want with it.

Where you start running into problems is if you take said X-Wing, strip it down to its component parts, mass replicate it and start selling it as your own. Now you're entering into different territory altogether. You've now taken someone else's idea, all of the time and money that they've invested into R&D and production, and claimed it as your own.

You are now profiting off someone else's idea/copyright/patent/intellectual property where by the original licensee, in this case Lucasfilm, doesn't see a dime... of course they're going to have an issue with it.
 
I think you misunderstand the basic lay of the land with respect to copyright law. Most of the time, the people getting nailed for infringement are getting nailed legitimately.

Most of the arguments that people come up with on internet forums about copyright are based on an underlying ignorance of the law, or operate from a sense of some kind of personal ownership that they don't actually have.

I agree that there's "creep" in intellectual property law, but it tends to occur more in the sense of what is and isn't afforded protection as being a derivative work, or where trademarks end. I don't think we have too many issues with IP rights vs. private property rights, though. Most of the time, what we have is ignorance of the nuances of the law, rather than the law actually shifting all that much against the public.

I agree with a lot of this. I agree that the vast majority of copyright/IP issues being raised these days are from people simply ignorant or disobeying (fair) laws.

What bothers me is the increasing feeling that the defaults are changing. Modern tech has been rapidly opening up a Pandora's box of ways for IP questions to arise. It scares me how so many people's default position is "that can't be legal" just because it's a new idea or it modifies an existing product. IP rights exist to protect people's right to profit from their IP and get credit for it. IP rights do no exist to control other people's actions outside of financial implications, and I fear this distinction is getting lost.

Right now the person in my position is usually the bad guy, arguing for the right to frustrate (or even rip off) an artist. But tomorrow the same legal principle might be getting used by the Corporate State to wrongfully coerce the public into buying things. Say, by placing wrongful restrictions on private property that people already own, for example. Big Pharma could make it illegal for people to mix up two of their existing drugs together - but the company will happily sell you a third drug consisting of the other two combined. Etc.



Ok... lots of incorrect assumptions in your argument here. The basic difference is "property" vs. "intellectual property".

You buy your X-wing from Wal-Mart, you repaint it, and you resell it... no problem here at all. You originally bought it from the retailer and therefore the retailer gets their cut, the manufacturer gets their cut, etc. all the way to Lucasfilm. As with any physical good - a chair, a car, a toaster - you bought it, you own it and you can do anything you want with it.

Where you start running into problems is if you take said X-Wing, strip it down to its component parts, mass replicate it and start selling it as your own. Now you're entering into different territory altogether. You've now taken someone else's idea, all of the time and money that they've invested into R&D and production, and claimed it as your own.

You are now profiting off someone else's idea/copyright/patent/intellectual property where by the original licensee, in this case Lucasfilm, doesn't see a dime... of course they're going to have an issue with it.


So the underlined section is the only part where you take issue with my viewpoints?

Maybe you missed a few of my earlier comments:


"As long as the modifying party is not selling more copies than he buys then he has done no wrong, morally speaking."

"Ripping and distributing (selling or giving away) copies of something? Without purchasing another original copy for each one? That IS wrong. That actually deprives the original seller of a potential sale each time."

"It's not stealing if the reseller is buying another copy of the original for each altered one sold."
 
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I, for one, think that they COULD finally give us the remastered unedited star wars we want.

What do you guys think? heh.
 
Where you start running into problems is if you take said X-Wing, strip it down to its component parts, mass replicate it and start selling it as your own. Now you're entering into different territory altogether. You've now taken someone else's idea, all of the time and money that they've invested into R&D and production, and claimed it as your own.
This. This. This.

Once your rip a film to your computer you are copying it... you are creating the "mold" to to "recast" it, burning it to disc or other playable format completes this "recast."

You are now profiting off someone else's idea/copyright/patent/intellectual property where by the original licensee, in this case Lucasfilm, doesn't see a dime... of course they're going to have an issue with it.
I don't think it matters even if their is a profit off of someone's property... once you take their property and copy it and give it away, it's wrong. Legally and morally.
 
Oh man, I wasn't going to come back to this thread. Damn it.

Listen, if you make a prop replica and sell it, you're stealing intellectual property. That's the WHOLE POINT OF THIS SITE. If distributing OOT blu-rays or something makes you feel guilty in your squishy bits, just accept the flagrant hypocrisy and move on. Don't try to justify how one is okay and one isn't through some convoluted logical acrobatics. Some of the posts here are like listening to preachers try to wriggle out of the awkward parts of the bible. This site is about stealing IP. I'm okay with it, you're okay with it. Why is distributing the OOT somehow morally inferior? (Well, in the original Hebrew, it says that copywrite law...sheesh!).

I hate myself for posting in this thread again.
 
Oh man, I wasn't going to come back to this thread. Damn it.

Listen, if you make a prop replica and sell it, you're stealing intellectual property. That's the WHOLE POINT OF THIS SITE. If distributing OOT blu-rays or something makes you feel guilty in your squishy bits, just accept the flagrant hypocrisy and move on. Don't try to justify how one is okay and one isn't through some convoluted logical acrobatics. Some of the posts here are like listening to preachers try to wriggle out of the awkward parts of the bible. This site is about stealing IP. I'm okay with it, you're okay with it. Why is distributing the OOT somehow morally inferior? (Well, in the original Hebrew, it says that copywrite law...sheesh!).

I hate myself for posting in this thread again.
And that was covered. Just how does this site deal with recasters - which is more in line with what this discussion is about. We're also not giving these away for free via torrents. Are the situations similar? Yes - but, far from identical.

Sheesh, indeed.
 
I, for one, think that they COULD finally give us the remastered unedited star wars we want.

What do you guys think? heh.

I think Disney certainly COULD do that if they wanted. I admit to not knowing what legal, technical, or any other hoops they'd have to jump through to make it happen, though. I also don't feel like they are in any way obligated to do it either. Sure would be a nice gesture, though. I understand if they don't want to for whatever reason right now, but it seems like at some point, when whatever new medium comes along that replaces BluRay, Star Wars will have to be remastered. It'd be nice if we could get some form of the theatrical releases from '77, '80, and '83.
 
I don't think it matters even if their is a profit off of someone's property... once you take their property and copy it and give it away, it's wrong. Legally and morally.

I agree. If you give are giving copies of something away then you are potentially preventing the recipients from buying more copies from the original seller at full price.

But not if you buy another brand new copy for every one that you give away (or sell).




In the big picture these other guys are right though. It's hypocritical for any of us to get on too many high horses about the finer points of IP issues when we are members of a forum like this. We all seem to be willing to make exceptions at least for small runs of things.
 
Maybe you guys should change the thread title, lol.
I think a mod would need to do that since the OP is now banned, but I agree this thread is no longer about the title subject. It is all about the pot calling the kettle black, 2 different items but both on the same stove. ;) :lol
 
I came to this Thread for some awesome original trilogy Blu-Ray talk, but instead.....

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I agree. If you give are giving copies of something away then you are potentially preventing the recipients from buying more copies from the original seller at full price.

But not if you buy another brand new copy for every one that you give away (or sell).
Read my entire statement... if you are giving copies of something away... you're little caveat or addition doesn't really add any justification to this.

You're still taking something and copying it, making changes and then selling the copy. Even if you are buying another legitimate version of it, you are still selling a copy of it. Case closed, end of story... you are not selling the original once you rip it - and sell that ripped version. Re-sell the original disc/file you purchased all you like - once you copy/rip it, it's a whole other story...
 
I think a mod would need to do that since the OP is now banned,

Since this thread is way off topic already...

WAIT! WHAT HAPPENED TO RODNEYFAILE ???

He is one of the the good guys, does anyone know why he has been banned? The ban log does not list him (yet).

Is it just me or is this community losing great people fast?
 
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