Could Disney finally give us the remastered, unedited Star Wars we want?

legalities -


Paying for a decrypted & altered copy of something should be legal as long as you (or at least the seller) also had to purchase a new legit copy each time. It's an existing product that somebody purchased, modified, and is reselling now. As long as the modifying party is not selling more copies than he buys then he has done no wrong, morally speaking.


Decrypting something you already paid for should be 100% legal. I don't care what the implications might be. This is like making it illegal to take a screwdriver and remove the casing off a product you paid for. If the seller doesn't want their stuff taken apart then it was their problem to encase it better.

Do you really "own" a movie for the selling price, or not? I don't recall signing any agreement the last time I paid for a copy of SW clarifying that the DVD was technically still Lucasfilm's property and I was only leasing it from them under the condition that I don't decrypt it.
 
Would there be anything stopping Disney from obtaining original negatives, masters, film prints ect. of the six movies and restoring them without even if they can't release them?
 
Would there be anything stopping Disney from obtaining original negatives, masters, film prints ect. of the six movies and restoring them without even if they can't release them?

I believe they are in possession of the negatives and can do whatever they want with them short of distribution.

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legalities -


Paying for a decrypted & altered copy of something should be legal as long as you (or at least the seller) also had to purchase a new legit copy each time. It's an existing product that somebody purchased, modified, and is reselling now. As long as the modifying party is not selling more copies than he buys then he has done no wrong, morally speaking.


Decrypting something you already paid for should be 100% legal. I don't care what the implications might be. This is like making it illegal to take a screwdriver and remove the casing off a product you paid for. If the seller doesn't want their stuff taken apart then it was their problem to encase it better.

Do you really "own" a movie for the selling price, or not? I don't recall signing any agreement the last time I paid for a copy of SW clarifying that the DVD was technically still Lucasfilm's property and I was only leasing it from them under the condition that I don't decrypt it.

Wow. Don't even know where to start, so I won't.
 
legalities -


Paying for a decrypted & altered copy of something should be legal as long as you (or at least the seller) also had to purchase a new legit copy each time. It's an existing product that somebody purchased, modified, and is reselling now. As long as the modifying party is not selling more copies than he buys then he has done no wrong, morally speaking.
I can't agree with that at all. It's not morally right at all.

Let's say I write a book - you're saying that if I write a book, someone is entitled to write their ending and make it available online? Or decide they don't like the way I use certain words so they can rewrite it and give it away?

I can't agree with altering a product at all if you're giving it away. If you're doing for your own private use... do as you please as long as it's for you and you only.

Decrypting something you already paid for should be 100% legal. I don't care what the implications might be. This is like making it illegal to take a screwdriver and remove the casing off a product you paid for. If the seller doesn't want their stuff taken apart then it was their problem to encase it better.

Do you really "own" a movie for the selling price, or not? I don't recall signing any agreement the last time I paid for a copy of SW clarifying that the DVD was technically still Lucasfilm's property and I was only leasing it from them under the condition that I don't decrypt it.
It is legal to make a backup copy of a movie you own.... the catch is that it is illegal to circumvent their decryption.

Instead of saying "we should be able to do this" - why aren't we asking "why can't we do this?" It's easy to think you're entitled to do something... but, when you look at the big picture it becomes a little more clear why we can't.

Simply, piracy is the problem. ...and the moviemakers need a way to defend their product and encryption is the best solution to their problem.
 
JD, don't be ridiculous. Content providers simply need to make their copyrighted material harder to rip, it's there fault clearly. I weep for the moral ambiguous youth of this nation.
 
I expected my comments to be controversial.

But I have thought about the principles in these topics plenty. And I do have respect for the rights of the artist.



JD, don't be ridiculous. Content providers simply need to make their copyrighted material harder to rip, it's there fault clearly. I weep for the moral ambiguous youth of this nation.


Ripping your own personal digital copies of something that you own is not morally wrong.

Should people be arrested for hand-copying a sentence out of a book they own onto a piece of notebook paper? Or how about xeroxing every single page of the book? It's no different in principle. They are coming up with a way to transfer the intellectual property in the book to another location.




Ripping and distributing (selling or giving away) copies of something? Without purchasing another original copy for each one? That IS wrong. That actually deprives the original seller of a potential sale each time.


Ripping & altering something is a grayer area. But IMO if you have purchased a copy for each one you resell, and if you make it clear that what you are selling is not the original version, then I see no crime. I see a whole lot of reasons that it might **** off the original creator. But I don't see a crime.



What if I buy a Superman costume at the store and decide I want the "S" on the chest to be black? Is it illegal for me to buy a dozen more copies of the costume, paint all the "S" letters black, and resell them all? Its no different in principle than reselling copies of an altered movie. The costume consists partly of "intellectual property" too. (The RPF of all places should agree with that notion.) I would be modifying the IP of the original item and reselling it without IP holder's permission, just like a recut version of Star Wars.

Altering a Superman costume seems very different from selling a bootleg altered movie in practice. But what is the difference in PRINCIPLE? There isn't one.




Intellectual property is rightly protected by law but people also have a right to do what they want with their own property. The fact that modern-day IP is very elaborate and sometimes easily duplicated does not change the moral & legal principles involved.
 
Do you really "own" a movie for the selling price, or not? I don't recall signing any agreement the last time I paid for a copy of SW clarifying that the DVD was technically still Lucasfilm's property and I was only leasing it from them under the condition that I don't decrypt it.

Assuming you purchased it legally, you own the disc that the movie is on, thats it. The movie itself is not your property to do with as you please. By purchasing the disc, you actually did agree to certain terms decided by the rights holder. Its how the whole concept of home media works. You're really only purchasing a license that allows you to view film, tv show, or whatever in the privacy of your home. They spell out quite clearly what you are and are not allowed to do with their movie. Your example of altering a costume doesn't fall under this type of law, so it doesn't even make sense to compare the two.
 
legalities -


Paying for a decrypted & altered copy of something should be legal as long as you (or at least the seller) also had to purchase a new legit copy each time. It's an existing product that somebody purchased, modified, and is reselling now. As long as the modifying party is not selling more copies than he buys then he has done no wrong, morally speaking.


Decrypting something you already paid for should be 100% legal. I don't care what the implications might be. This is like making it illegal to take a screwdriver and remove the casing off a product you paid for. If the seller doesn't want their stuff taken apart then it was their problem to encase it better.

How do you reconcile that comment with this? You essentially place blame on the encryption technology to justify you violating their copyright. Shame on you.
 
JD, don't be ridiculous. Content providers simply need to make their copyrighted material harder to rip, it's there fault clearly. I weep for the moral ambiguous youth of this nation.
What part of me is being ridiculous? I think I stated the case fairly about why thing's are encrypted.
 
I expected my comments to be controversial.

But I have thought about the principles in these topics plenty. And I do have respect for the rights of the artist.
Non controversial - it's an argument that's been fought long ago. You say you respect the rights of an artist... but, you also feel that's it's right to copy their work without their permission - that's not respecting their rights as owners.

Ripping your own personal digital copies of something that you own is not morally wrong.
I don't think anyone said it was wrong. In fact, it is even legal to do so.

However, one could argue that it morally wrong - because you are robbing an artist/owner of potential sale(s) if you purchase a CD and rip it. In theory, you might've purchased a CD and then purchased those same MP3's. So, in one viewpoint - it is morally wrong. Realistically (and perhaps morally from a consumer standpoint), you purchased the CD for your use and you want to use it both ways - as long as it's for personal use, I think that's fair use.

Should people be arrested for hand-copying a sentence out of a book they own onto a piece of notebook paper? Or how about xeroxing every single page of the book? It's no different in principle. They are coming up with a way to transfer the intellectual property in the book to another location.

Ripping and distributing (selling or giving away) copies of something? Without purchasing another original copy for each one? That IS wrong. That actually deprives the original seller of a potential sale each time.
I think we're in agreement. This all seems to be fair use.

Ripping & altering something is a grayer area. But IMO if you have purchased a copy for each one you resell, and if you make it clear that what you are selling is not the original version, then I see no crime. I see a whole lot of reasons that it might **** off the original creator. But I don't see a crime.
This isn't a gray area at all to me - it you are taking someone else's property and selling it - even if it's been altered, that's wrong and it's a crime.

For all intents and purposes it's recasting. I don't care if you change it - it's morally, ethically and legally wrong - there's no justifying it. "But, I changed this part" - Nope, still not your property to change and distribute.


What if I buy a Superman costume at the store and decide I want the "S" on the chest to be black? Is it illegal for me to buy a dozen more copies of the costume, paint all the "S" letters black, and resell them all? Its no different in principle than reselling copies of an altered movie. The costume consists partly of "intellectual property" too. (The RPF of all places should agree with that notion.) I would be modifying the IP of the original item and reselling it without IP holder's permission, just like a recut version of Star Wars.

Altering a Superman costume seems very different from selling a bootleg altered movie in practice. But what is the difference in PRINCIPLE? There isn't one.
If you're selling bootleg Superman costumes, they're still bootleg Superman costumes - even if they started out as licensed product. Warner will legally stop you - and they're morally right to do so. They're protecting their property.

Intellectual property is rightly protected by law but people also have a right to do what they want with their own property. The fact that modern-day IP is very elaborate and sometimes easily duplicated does not change the moral & legal principles involved.
The difference is when you start selling and/or distributing other peoples work - work that you have no right - morally or legally to distribute.
 
Let's say I go to Walmart and buy a new X-wing toy. I take it home, open it up, and repaint it. Then I put it on Ebay and sell it, describing it as a "used & repainted X-wing toy."

According to your argument this is infringing on the intellectual property of the X-wing's design. I did not get Lucasfilm's/Disney's permission before altering and reselling it.



This is no different in principle from selling a repainted Superman suit - or a re-edited Star Wars DVD.


Making this illegal means taking away the rights of ownership from the consumer. The consumer is not stealing money from the artist/seller, nor is the consumer attempting to take credit for the artist/seller's IP. The consumer is just doing something the artist/seller is not happy about, which is not against the law. The law should not be a tool of artist/sellers to start dictating what private owners are allowed to do with their own property.

The only way around it is to have everything with intellectual property being "leased" or "rented" (complete with a signed contract) rather than purchased outright by the consumer.
 
Let's say I go to Walmart and buy a new X-wing toy. I take it home, open it up, and repaint it. Then I put it on Ebay and sell it, describing it as a "used & repainted X-wing toy."

According to your argument this is infringing on the intellectual property of the X-wing's design. I did not get Lucasfilm's/Disney's permission before altering and reselling it.



This is no different in principle from selling a repainted Superman suit - or a re-edited Star Wars DVD.


Making this illegal means taking away the rights of ownership from the consumer. The consumer is not stealing money from the artist/seller, nor is the consumer attempting to take credit for the artist/seller's IP. The consumer is just doing something the artist/seller is not happy about, which is not against the law. The law should not be a tool of artist/sellers to start dictating what private owners are allowed to do with their own property.

The only way around it is to have everything with intellectual property being "leased" or "rented" (complete with a signed contract) rather than purchased outright by the consumer.
You're comparing apples to oranges....

If you take the movie and edit it - you are not re-selling the same physical product. Sure, go ahead and buy a DVD and scribble on it and resell it all you want - it is not taking away the consumers rights of ownership... taking the product, ripping it, altering it and then burning it to disc or uploading the file is not the same as taking an X-Wing and repainting it. You're also talking multiple exact copies from one purchase that are now being sold/distributed.

What is more in line with this discussion is more along the lines of: I go to Target (I hate Walmart), I buy an X-Wing toy, I cast it and give it fancy paint job and start selling them on eBay... which is legally and morally wrong.

There is still no justification for taking someone else's product and altering it and reselling it... and I'm not talking about thing's like cars or even toys that you might resell. There is a huge difference.
 
You're comparing apples to oranges....

If you take the movie and edit it - you are not re-selling the same physical product. Sure, go ahead and buy a DVD and scribble on it and resell it all you want - it is not taking away the consumers rights of ownership... taking the product, ripping it, altering it and then burning it to disc or uploading the file is not the same as taking an X-Wing and repainting it.

If you don't like the X-wing analogy then imagine altering a book:

"I have this book for sale, used condition. A few pages are missing so I have included copies of those pages. The replacement pages may have slightly different content from the original book, as they were re-typed from memory."

No different in principle.



You're also talking multiple exact copies from one purchase that are now being sold/distributed.

What is more in line with this discussion is more along the lines of: I go to Target (I hate Walmart), I buy an X-Wing toy, I cast it and give it fancy paint job and start selling them on eBay... which is legally and morally wrong.


It's not stealing if the reseller is buying another copy of the original for each altered one sold.


This is not just a hypothetical arguing point. This has been happening in the real world. There is some Christian business that has been doing exactly this: Re-editing popular movies to make G-rated versions for reselling. But they have been very careful & clear about purchasing another copy of each movie for each re-edited copy that they resell. So it cannot be argued that they are depriving the filmmakers of any sales.



There is still no justification for taking someone else's product and altering it and reselling it... and I'm not talking about thing's like cars or even toys that you might resell. There is a huge difference.


That's an opinion.
 
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Back on Topic.

If done properly, every single one of us would buy copies of the unaltered trilogy.

Disney would be rolling in yet more dough.

It's a win/win!

Rich
 
If you don't like the X-wing analogy then imagine altering a book:

"I have this book for sale, used condition. A few pages are missing so I have included copies of those pages. The replacement pages may have slightly different content from the original book, as they were re-typed from memory."

No different in principle.

Actually, it's a bit different. If we're talking about fan edits of the SEs -- either to return them to as-close-to-OOT-as-possible status, or to simply present one's personal take -- that's actually what would be considered a "derivative work." You can sell or give away your copy of the SE DVDs if you want. There's nothing wrong with that. You're basically just transferring your license. What you can't do is make a copy of the licensed product, nor sell or give away an altered version (derivative work) of that licensed product.

Making the copy in and of itself is actually infringement. One of the exclusive rights for copyright holders is the right to copy. That's a distinct, and separate right from the right to distribute. There's a provision of the copyright act which, if memory serves, applies to audio recordings and software that basically says you can make a backup copy for your own personal use. But without that provision, ANY act of copying is infringement. Even if you never distribute that copy. Now, practically speaking, a rightsholder would have a hard time making the case that they've been damaged by the copying, but they could still get statutory damages, potentially, meaning they don't have to prove that they were actually harmed by your actions -- merely that you infringed their rights.

The book scenario is different because it'd probably fall within the realm of "fair use," which is another separate section of the Copyright Act itself. And in that case, your copying would be of only the damaged pages, rather than the work as a whole. The amount of the work copied is one part of the test for fair use, along with the purposes for which you infringed (e.g. commercial vs. non-commercial). Also, each prong of the four-part test is given equal weight by courts.

It's not stealing if the reseller is buying another copy of the original for each altered one sold.

My point is that it doesn't matter if it's "stealing." We aren't talking about theft here. We're talking about copyright and copyright infringement. Copyright law is defined by specific legislation -- the 1976 Copyright Act, and its subsequent amendments -- which is interpreted by reams of caselaw out there. It's not a simple matter of "well, logically..." The specific rights and remedies that copyright holders have are outlined in law, and that law is ultimately designed to provide incentives to people to keep creating copyrightable works. Towards that end, the provisions of the law go well beyond basic concepts of "theft," in no small part because we're dealing with intellectual property rather than physical objects.


This is not just a hypothetical arguing point. This has been happening in the real world. There is some Christian business that has been doing exactly this: Re-editing popular movies to make G-rated versions for reselling. But they have been very careful & clear about purchasing another copy of each movie for each re-edited copy that they resell. So it cannot be argued that they are depriving the filmmakers of any sales.

That may be the case, but without knowing more of the facts, it's difficult to say whether they're infringing. It could be that these works are in the public domain. Or it could be that they've obtained a license from the rightsholder to do this. OR it could be that they're infringing and the original rightsholders simply aren't aware of the infringement. To me, it sounds like that'd be infringement, although I'm not sure if a court has weighed in on that fact pattern or anything similar to it. I also don't think that'd be protected under "fair use," merely because they aren't depriving the filmmakers of sales.


One thing you have to keep in mind about copyright law is that it's mostly policed by the rightsholders. They have to be aware of an infringement and try to do something about it before anyone gets sued. So, the fact that various infringers are getting away with infringing doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that the rightsholder isn't aware of the infringement. In some cases, rightsholders turn a blind eye to the infringement (e.g., this entire hobby), but in others it's really just because they don't know about it yet. I wouldn't look at this Christian company you're talking about as a model for why it's legal to make Star Wars fan edits. Bottom line: it isn't legal. Fan edits, Despecialized Editions, etc., none of it's legal.


Note: I'm only talking about legalities here. I'm not addressing the issue of the morality of copying, restoring, re-editing, etc. We can argue in circles forever about the morality of this stuff, but the legalities are pretty clear.
 
Isn't this entire website based on casting and selling other peoples copyrighted material and designs? We all live in the gray area here ;).
Re-casters are typically frowned on and banned from here - and some properties are definitely not allowed if a legal item is available and based no if/how its owner chooses to protect its property.

But, yes... definitely a gray area.
 
One thing you have to keep in mind about copyright law is that it's mostly policed by the rightsholders. They have to be aware of an infringement and try to do something about it before anyone gets sued. So, the fact that various infringers are getting away with infringing doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that the rightsholder isn't aware of the infringement. In some cases, rightsholders turn a blind eye to the infringement (e.g., this entire hobby), but in others it's really just because they don't know about it yet. I wouldn't look at this Christian company you're talking about as a model for why it's legal to make Star Wars fan edits. Bottom line: it isn't legal. Fan edits, Despecialized Editions, etc., none of it's legal.

Note: I'm only talking about legalities here. I'm not addressing the issue of the morality of copying, restoring, re-editing, etc. We can argue in circles forever about the morality of this stuff, but the legalities are pretty clear.


I don't disagree. I have just been arguing the morality of the underlying principles.


Legally speaking it's a whole other story, and one where I fear we will get increasingly screwed in the future for the sake of protecting IP. IP has become the bread & butter of our economy rather than physical manufacturing. The problem is that the copyright holders have gradually shifted the "burden of proof" onto the public whenever there is a question of IP rights versus private property rights.

This is wrong IMO. It shouldn't be the public's problem to prove that people have the right to do something with their own private property. It should be the copyright holder's problem to prove that people don't have it.
 
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