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original esb vader costume on the auction block

Well yes they claim in the auction description that the cape is second generation from Farmer so that's a given about the inaccuracy of the chain.

Another big problem comes under the "possibly production made" parts they list the leathers.

For the jacket, they specify six metal buckles on the back. To my knowledge there were never any original leather suits with that kind of buckle configuration on the rear. And in fact, that other ESB tour suit I know about by Farmer has exactly the same configuration.

On this simple basis alone the leather suit is not original.
 
anakin said:
Thomas - I'm not a member on TPD - do you mean that the owner of the suit is possibly a member there, or even here?

"There are actually two complete suits, and initially the owner claimed another helmet from the other suit was the original and that this helmet now in the auction was the tour helmet. Then after I show it isn't, he switched his story to make the larger mask the original and the smaller one the tour."

simply curious.
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No he isn't a member there or here to my knowledge. But images were shown of his two suits in a thread about ROTJ and ESB Vaders, with ensuing discussion...
 
SithLord said:
No he isn't a member there or here to my knowledge. But images were shown of his two suits in a thread about ROTJ and ESB Vaders, with ensuing discussion...
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I think he might be a member now. :rolleyes I do not believe in coincidences. In this fight Thomas, you have my vote. Friggin' charlatans.
 
Thanks, Qui, you might be right, and if so it would be good then to hear more about the documentation since it would have to apply specifically to one suit or the other, one helmet or the other.

I'll just add that the previous discussions of the two suits took place back in March/April of this year on the Den...so quite some time back.
 
Good catch, ya weird they use the photo from a previous auction...probably just did a Google search and found that first. :lol

$70k, I had forgotten how "little" that went for given the provenance. Still pains me to see it refinished like that...which certainly influenced the final price. :unsure
 
Just to show I am not entirely cruel and heartless, and cannot resist a good comparison... :)

ChristiesESBfakeM1vsESBorig2s.jpg


Yes they look pretty similar but to a trained eye there are some real differences. Widow's peak, teeth gaps widths, filled tube undercuts (even between the side of the mouth triangle and the top part of the tube convergence), obviously things like the grills, and tusks, and note also how much thicker the helmet is around the lower flaring edge than an original ESB helmet. There is also a lot that isn't apparent from such a photograph that I mentioned in relation to the mask. But I'd really like to get a couple of measurements of it to be sure.

There's no doubt it is a beautiful helmet, nicely finished, but that doesn't make it a production original...
 
Comparing the left tube convergence on the FM ESB, DS 20th C and hero ESB. Note the FM ESB (this auction mask) has basically the identical tapering near the end of the tubes as the 20th C...it is quite narrow near the tusk and also there is that little bend on the lower edge. The hero ESB tube end is thicker and not as tapered toward that end. I'm not saying it is necessarily a 20th C or from a 20th C, more just that it isn't an original ESB. The 20th C is from 1995 so why would the FM ESB have the same kind of tapering?

FMESBvsDS20thCLtubes2b.jpg
 
As you might have noticed Ive not been on the forums for the last few months, in fact the last time I did was to first raise the issue of this Vader (in fact Vader's) on TPD where I shared a load of photos.

I have to say that at the time it was completely dismissed as a replica or possibly tour, based on the photos we had available at that time. Since then the general opinion hasnt really changed

From my perspective I think it is an interesting piece (Im concentrating on the helmet now), although IMO its provenance relies massively on the paperwork that supposedly accompanies it - and the background work I understand Christies has done verifying it. I'm trying to get hold of these documents, including a supposed "letter from Lucasfilm to Farmer's dated early 1980" which details the Vader they sent to Farmer's for reproduction purposes (the same one that the owner says he's now selling).

So it concerns me Thomas that in one of your quotes you're saying that Christies are now stating that the paperwork actually only SUGGESTS that it was that date - which confuses me since letters/faxes etc. always have dates on them. I dont like vague.

In addition, it concerns me now that Christies are using the term "production made" rather than "screen used", and wonder if this is something agreed with Lucasfilm (who I understand were contacted and "cleared" the auction). Now I understand that Lucasfilm is not there to authenticate 3rd party sales - however Christies most certainly IS hence their choice of words is extremely important.

Like I said Im hoping to see some paperwork, which hopefully will provide some real cold hard evidence to back up its provenance - as opposed to what currently seems to be innuendo, and somewhat ambiguous fluff.

Cheers

Jez
 
You know, call me crazy here, but at a 250k price tag, people would be willing to fudge a LOT of paperwork for a percentage of that nut. The evidence that is KNOWN by even Vader fans like me, forget about those who have actually handled screen used pieces, is enough to make knowledgable fans shy away from this. So, why in the hell is snow job being allowed to continue? Because ALL parties have a lot to gain by this and frankly, LFL does not care.
 
Qui-Gonzalez said:
You know, call me crazy here, but at a 250k price tag, people would be willing to fudge a LOT of paperwork for a percentage of that nut. The evidence that is KNOWN by even Vader fans like me, forget about those who have actually handled screen used pieces, is enough to make knowledgable fans shy away from this. So, why in the hell is snow job being allowed to continue? Because ALL parties have a lot to gain by this and frankly, LFL does not care.
Click to expand...

Maybe if one of the established "News" prop sites could ask for comment by LFL on why they are allowing an "iconic" piece to be sold might that might start the ball rolling on getting the truth out to what this is ?

Remember the TPM R2D2 dome that got pulled from auction ? LFL really going to stand by and let a Vader lid etc be sold ?
 
Well the difference as I understand it is that LFL is not contesting ownership of this Vader suit. The R2 head on the other hand was *apparently* stolen from Leavesden Studios and therefore still belonged to Lucasfilm.
 
Thanks for chiming in Jez...and for originally bringing this suit to our attention.

Yes LFL is generally concerned only if it is original and their property.

I'm trying to find tells on this mask that would place it in relation to something later but there are obvious things like the difference in thickness of the depth of the teeth gaps. On authentic or original ANH and ESB masks, the thickness is the same top to bottom. On ROTJ masks, it tends to be thinner towards the top (the reveal being an exception since it was really reworked in that area). We also see this on later castings with ROTJ origin.

Anyway, here is a comparison showing the FM ESB on the left with the thinner depth on the top of the gaps, and the Magic of Myth ROTJ tour mask on the right with the same gradation in depth.

FMESBwROTJteeth.jpg


And things like this are obvious to me so there are even more minor details that can provide some indication of later lineage. But it isn't original ESB. As some have mentioned it could be ROTJ or ROTJ-derived and it is at least that era or later.
 
Ging said:
Maybe if one of the established "News" prop sites could ask for comment by LFL on why they are allowing an "iconic" piece to be sold might that might start the ball rolling on getting the truth out to what this is ?

Remember the TPM R2D2 dome that got pulled from auction ? LFL really going to stand by and let a Vader lid etc be sold ?
Click to expand...
My problem with the "established" prop news sites (MPPC NOT included) is that these guys have hitched their trailer to our long established wagon and when confronted on this fact, they go all legal threats, as was established by a recently banned member. You will NOT EVER find more true information than you will here, or some of the sub forums like TPD. We may argue and bicker, but it is in the pursuit of truth. We are not trying to establish a career as a "journalist" by looking at the next big thing.
 
WebChief said:
What's the consensus on the chest box because it has elements of ESB and ROTJ on it?
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It just seems like a newer rendition of a Farmer box, a replica of a replica. And you are right it looks like a ROTJ box with two added greeblies. It is more ROTJ than ESB. A Farmer box I've seen is an actual ESB-style box and looks 30 years old, unlike this one that looks two years old. I think this box was made just to complete the costume, as with the beltbox set which looks almost as good as a Rubies, almost. :unsure
 
voice in the crowd said:
Hi Jez,

Hope you are well and glad to see you back on the boards.

I have to say I was surprised not to see you at some point in the original ANH trooper thread or see a snazzy big update about it on your site.


Cheers Chris
Click to expand...

Thanks mate - been working on other stuff.

Yeah it looks like I missed that one - although did get some calls about it - I get the impression it "didn't happen" in the end. Shame really :(

Well it appears I've missed a fair bit, as dont know what an "FM ESB" is (Thomas' post) - nor who "snow job" is (Qui's) :confused

As far as the chest box I thought only the Helmet, Shoulder and shins were being referred to as "Production" with everything else "unknown/tour"?

BTW Ive not had anything back from Christies so presume I wont hear anything until next week.

Cheers

Jez
PS, the hyperbole used from some of the Tabloid press and online sites has been pretty disgraceful.
 
There is generally a two letter naming convention for helmets (followed by the film they were in ANH, ESB, etc.) and I couldn't think of anything better than FM for Farmer for this claimed ESB helmet. If there are initials of the owners actual name we could use those, for example.
 
Nice Jez. I said the seller has them "snowed". You say "snow job". I am quite sure you have heard the euphemism "snowed" since you have translated it to "snow job". Also, this was over on TPD, not here.

Here is the context it was in again...
SithLord said:
So if he has a letter from Farmer which mask would it apply to? You see the problem with this? He's just making this up as he goes along to find something that is original about his two suits.
Click to expand...

To which I replied...
Qui-Gonzalez said:
And frankly, he has Christies snowed. What you have said is one of the most valid points ever. With two suits, how do we know he is offering up anything? Everything he has shown has been a suspect Farmer piece. I almost feel badly that he believes he has the real deal...almost.
Click to expand...

Again, both parties have a lot to gain by this sale. Nice commission for Christies, a good chunk of change for the seller and I am sure someone is getting kicked a little bit of cash, but that last is STRICTLY OPINION.
 
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