Original Screen Matched Complete Hero Imperial Stormtrooper Costume | Heritage Auctions
- Thread starter jkno
- Start date
Beautiful suit!
QUESTION: what is the chain of ownership for auctions like this? Unless Lucasfilm is selling this themselves, then how does anyone else "own" it? Didn't Lucasfilm pay Andrew Ainsworth to make the original ANH ST suits in 1976, and therefore own the actual suits themselves? I know years ago UK law said that LFL did not own the (industrial) physical design of the stormtrooper which allowed Ainsworth to continue making suits in the UK, correct?
But this actual suit should still be the property of Lucasfilm, right?
1) Unless it was discarded / thrown away by LFL and then recovered by someone else, OR...
2) Sat in a storage facility that was abandoned or rent not payed, and therefore could legally become the possession of someone else (like the Death Star model), OR...
3) Was given by LFL to someone, who either passed it on to others or kept it, and it's now for sale
QUESTION: what is the chain of ownership for auctions like this? Unless Lucasfilm is selling this themselves, then how does anyone else "own" it? Didn't Lucasfilm pay Andrew Ainsworth to make the original ANH ST suits in 1976, and therefore own the actual suits themselves? I know years ago UK law said that LFL did not own the (industrial) physical design of the stormtrooper which allowed Ainsworth to continue making suits in the UK, correct?
But this actual suit should still be the property of Lucasfilm, right?
1) Unless it was discarded / thrown away by LFL and then recovered by someone else, OR...
2) Sat in a storage facility that was abandoned or rent not payed, and therefore could legally become the possession of someone else (like the Death Star model), OR...
3) Was given by LFL to someone, who either passed it on to others or kept it, and it's now for sale
This question could be applicable to almost any prop that goes up for auction, which wasn't specifically "gifted" to someone who worked on the film by GL.
This is overall a flawed example with a car sale, as title has to be legally transferred for ownership/registration/ tax purposes, but hear me out...
Let's say that back in the day, I purchased a brand new 1976 Ford Mustang with my own money. I drive it for a few years, then leave it parked in my parents' backyard work shed while I go college, fall in love, get married, start a career, have kids, etc. I never drive the car again. Decades later I see the car up for sale at a national auto auction company (same VIN, so I know it's the one I purchased), being sold by someone I don't know, and never heard of.
The guy says he bought the car from a another guy who owned it for 20 years before he did. The guy has never heard of me, either. I call my parents to ask what happened; they never told me they got rid of my car, I just assumed it was still in their backyard shed. My parents tell me that they paid some dude years ago to clean out the shed and do some maintenance work, and they told him to take whatever he wanted. They though the car was useless to me at that point and they didn't even think to mention it. So he must have taken the Mustang (the keys were above the visor) with him. But there was NO transfer of title...
1) Don't I legally still own the car? Even if my parents told someone to take it, legally they had no right to do that (assuming that state law may/may not allow them to take ownership if I leave it on their property for X amount of time, etc).
2) Ignoring that in the real world the auction house would not even try to sell a car without clear title... couldn't I stop the auto auction?
3) If the statute of limitations was not expired, could I file a police report against the guy who took the car from my parents' shed?
Another quick example: if someone breaks into my office and steals a computer, then sells it to a pawn shop, and some innocent guy buys it, THEN the police track my computer down: In the U.S., as the property is stolen from me and I can show ownership, then I get the laptop back and the innocent guy who purchased it from the pawn shop is just out of his $$, correct?
Why wouldn't LFL speak up and stop these auctions? There are MULTIPLE screen used props listed on the Heritage Auction site.
Different time period and before Star Wars was Star Wars, so assets from the original production were not valued then as they are today. Once the movie was made, production items were considered garbage and were scrapped for the most part. That’s why so much was saved as souvenirs by people who worked on and were associated with the production.
I see your point, but unless LFL gave away or sold the props & costumes, or trashed them (thereby negating ownership), wouldn't LFL still own the items?
In the 1990s, LFL auctioned a screen used TESB helmet and shoulder/chest armor for charity. LFL (Don Bies) repainted the helmet and fused the dome to the mask as well. This was obviously in LFLs possession so they had the "right" to auction/sell it.
Back then these things were gifted to people who either worked on or visited the production.A lot of what was left was thrown in dumpsters and saved by fans. It’s that simple. It wasn’t stolen and LFL has their own suits in the archive that they’ve saved.
They literally threw the Death Star model out and someone saved it from a second hand store. If they came back to claim it then it would leave a pretty bad taste in peoples mouths.
Ben
They literally threw the Death Star model out and someone saved it from a second hand store. If they came back to claim it then it would leave a pretty bad taste in peoples mouths.
Ben
In addition to the TV appearances the description mentions, they were also sent on tour. I've seen pics of them at Toys R Us or whatever with Vader.
As we've learned from the Vader tour suit auctioned a few years ago, and the ST-TMP Klingon uniforms that never came back from THEIR post-filming tour (requiring new ones to be made for a TV commercial), once a tour is over, folks at the home base stop caring about getting them back, and likely don't bother making arrangements for return shipment when there aren't any more events in the pipeline. If you did a gig, and the people never sent you a FedEx number to charge it to (or whatever) to send the stuff back, what... you gonna send it to them at your own expense out of the goodness of your own heart?
Very often in cases like this, the items are in private hands because of abandonment rather than theft.
As we've learned from the Vader tour suit auctioned a few years ago, and the ST-TMP Klingon uniforms that never came back from THEIR post-filming tour (requiring new ones to be made for a TV commercial), once a tour is over, folks at the home base stop caring about getting them back, and likely don't bother making arrangements for return shipment when there aren't any more events in the pipeline. If you did a gig, and the people never sent you a FedEx number to charge it to (or whatever) to send the stuff back, what... you gonna send it to them at your own expense out of the goodness of your own heart?
Very often in cases like this, the items are in private hands because of abandonment rather than theft.
In addition to the TV appearances the description mentions, they were also sent on tour. I've seen pics of them at Toys R Us or whatever with Vader.
As we've learned from the Vader tour suit auctioned a few years ago, and the ST-TMP Klingon uniforms that never came back from THEIR post-filming tour (requiring new ones to be made for a TV commercial), once a tour is over, folks at the home base stop caring about getting them back, and likely don't bother making arrangements for return shipment when there aren't any more events in the pipeline. If you did a gig, and the people never sent you a FedEx number to charge it to (or whatever) to send the stuff back, what... you gonna send it to them at your own expense out of the goodness of your own heart?
Very often in cases like this, the items are in private hands because of abandonment rather than theft.
I would therefore assume that LFL COULD lay claim to these original items, and may even succeed in U.S. court (for those items within the United States) if they wished to pursue it. It may depend on a statute of limitations and not just federal law but various local state laws that regulate possession. If some of these are still UK based then I have no idea.
As for the bad taste it may leave in people's mouths for LFL to go try to obtain "their" items back... not much love for LFL nowadays anyway. But this could be done completely silent, behind closed doors. The LFL attorneys contact Heritage Auctions and:
1) inform them of the their claim to the items, and that they are NOT available for auction
2) demand that the auctions be removed immediately from active listings
3) demand the names/contact information for the "owners" of said items and/or the "owners" be given LFL's general counsel office phone number.
4) threatens legal action if the items are not returned to LFL... and if their is an ownership dispute by the "owner," then LFL takes them to court to settle it.
Which raises the question: is it worth the hassle to LFL? If LFL is just going to stick these items back in their archive collection, then... no, it's not financially "worth" it. But with these items pulling in $100s of thousands of dollars (the Bob Anderson ESB Vader dueling helmet sold at auction for the equivalent of almost $1 million USD by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen) I can't see LFL sitting on potentially millions of dollars in assets.
Say I left something at my friends house 50 years ago and didn’t care about it. Fast forward 50 years and it’s worth money. I suddenly want it back. Where do I stand? I mean my friend could potentially charge me 50 years of storage fees couldn’t he. My friend has possessed it for 50 years when I couldn’t care less. At what point is it abandoned property?
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
It was abandoned property when it was left or thrown out by the company.
RBJ
Sr Member
The "who owns it" debate seems a bit contradictory to what we do here. LFL has basically said ( on the stuff dreams are made of podcast) they have what the want in the archives and are not concerned with what is out there..so moving on..
Has such a complete trooper suit ever been offered before? The fact that its one of three known hero helmets make me pretty sure this will set a price record.
Has such a complete trooper suit ever been offered before? The fact that its one of three known hero helmets make me pretty sure this will set a price record.
It wasn't really round anyway.The original Death Star was offered (for a price) back to LFL...they refused because it was too expensive to buy back
JediMichael
Master Member
I remember reading the guysnhad offered the death star back to LFL, but do not recall them teying to sell it back.
Of course, I know as storys are told over the years, certain details might get lost or changed.
I know at one point they had talked to some person there at LFL, and they claimed the model had been blown up.
There has never been a greater moment of, "can I speak to the manager", than that.
Of course, I know as storys are told over the years, certain details might get lost or changed.
I know at one point they had talked to some person there at LFL, and they claimed the model had been blown up.
There has never been a greater moment of, "can I speak to the manager", than that.
To resurrect his necro thread... I believe Gus Lopez said that when they called LucasFilm to inform them that he had the ANH Death Star model, Gus was originally told that the Death Star was just matte paintings (and therfore he couldn't have the screen used prop, beacuse there never was one).
JediMichael
Master Member
Figures someone at Lucasfilm wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. Sure, there were paintings, but clearly a model was made.
His gain, thats for sure.
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