Wow Joe Johnston is a moron - Captain America
- Thread starter Sluis Van Shipyards
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firesprite
Master Member
WW's changes WEREN'T just to the costume, they also changed her backstory so that she comes from a more 'urban' upbringing. THAT'S what spurred my indignation about them. I can live with the costume, if that's all they were changing.
As for the changes to Cap... I'll repeat something I've said a LOT around here (and agree with Mic while I'm at it): It's too early to tell if this will be a travesty or a masterpiece. You guys need to take a deep breath, get your panties out of a wad, and relax.
"You guys need to take a deep breath, get your panties out of a wad, and relax."
Don't you mean 'Underoos'?
Cap isn't beyond re-assessing his thoughts on the country in any way. Here we are once again: folks who haven't read a script, probably don't have full familiarity with the source, and usually seem to be looking for something/anything to jump on do so w/o the knowledge to back it up. Just to stir stir stir...
Don't you mean 'Underoos'?
Cap isn't beyond re-assessing his thoughts on the country in any way. Here we are once again: folks who haven't read a script, probably don't have full familiarity with the source, and usually seem to be looking for something/anything to jump on do so w/o the knowledge to back it up. Just to stir stir stir...
BB43MAN
Sr Member
Exactly!!!! I recall years ago, on this very website, one person who was bitching about X-Men (the movie by Singer) before it came out and he said "They better not $*@(-up the francise!" I was wondering what they were gonna do to the movie studio if the movie sucked? I was thinking if that same person was singing a different tune once he saw the movie. I even bet that person has some X-Man props by now!
If you don't like the movie once you see it...........write Joe Johnston and ask for your money back. Simple as that.
If you don't like the movie once you see it...........write Joe Johnston and ask for your money back. Simple as that.
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Solo4114
Master Member
Here's the full quote:
Now, if we want to pick apart the language being used, pay close attention to the phrase "jingoistic American flag-waver."
Let's also consider where Johnston is coming from. Here's a guy who probably grew up in the midst of the disillusionment that much of his generation felt in the wake of Vietnam. For them, Captain America was this ironic icon of all that was wrong with the country: blind patriotism, follow-your-orders-without-question, staid, rigidly moral 1950s crap that no longer existed to them. It's understandable that he wouldn't be making a 1940s serial.
Let's also keep in mind that Cap has to transition between the 1940s and modern day. And while he may have some anachronistic holdover behavior that'll make for humorous moments, and maybe some real serious earnest ideals that don't fit in a cynical modern environment (that being the point), that's most certainly NOT the same thing as some dumb-as-rocks boyscout who just blindly follows his mission.
I would hope that what Johnston is trying to say is that Steve Rogers -- as Cap -- went into the war as a man of conscience who wanted to embody the best of what America has to offer, but who doesn't necessarily act obnoxiously about it. He's not Team America: World Police. He's something more grounded and less over the top than that.
I think it'd be VERY easy for a bad director to turn Cap into a parody of himself, as some stupid "AMERICA!!!! **** YEAH!!" kind of guy. It wouldn't be hard to do.
And let's not forget either that Cap in the 70s and 80s was someone who believed in the overall mission and in his country more than just in what his politician bosses tell him to do. Anyone remember when he went as The Captain? Or how about the recent Civil War stuff where he fought against registration? Basically, Cap isn't blindly jingoistic (as in, loves war), nor a reflexively law-and-order-the-bosses-told-me-to-do-it type.
He's someone who loves his country and what he believes it represents, and he's proud to be a symbol in that cause. I guess, to me, I make a distinction between someone who's a "jingoistic American flag waver" and someone who genuinely loves the ideals this country stands for. Those two things aren't at all the same. So, yeah, I agree with Johnston that that's NOT what Cap is.
Now, as for the "different spin", I have no idea what he's talking about, unless he means "different" from "jingoistic American flag-waver." In which case, I'd assume that means "different from what a lot of people reflexively think Cap is, just because he wears the stars and stripes."
Check out Frank Miller's run on Daredevil in the Born Again TPB. Cap makes an appearance in there and, to me, it sort of embodies who Cap is. He'll break the law and disobey orders when those orders are, in his view, illegal. He deeply loves this country, including the symbolism (yes, the flag), and recognizes what it means, but he also doesn't blindly kowtow to authorities. I think you can make a film with all of that set in WWII, keeping the character very idealistic, as long as those ideals don't simply boil down to Team America.
Now, if we want to pick apart the language being used, pay close attention to the phrase "jingoistic American flag-waver."
Let's also consider where Johnston is coming from. Here's a guy who probably grew up in the midst of the disillusionment that much of his generation felt in the wake of Vietnam. For them, Captain America was this ironic icon of all that was wrong with the country: blind patriotism, follow-your-orders-without-question, staid, rigidly moral 1950s crap that no longer existed to them. It's understandable that he wouldn't be making a 1940s serial.
Let's also keep in mind that Cap has to transition between the 1940s and modern day. And while he may have some anachronistic holdover behavior that'll make for humorous moments, and maybe some real serious earnest ideals that don't fit in a cynical modern environment (that being the point), that's most certainly NOT the same thing as some dumb-as-rocks boyscout who just blindly follows his mission.
I would hope that what Johnston is trying to say is that Steve Rogers -- as Cap -- went into the war as a man of conscience who wanted to embody the best of what America has to offer, but who doesn't necessarily act obnoxiously about it. He's not Team America: World Police. He's something more grounded and less over the top than that.
I think it'd be VERY easy for a bad director to turn Cap into a parody of himself, as some stupid "AMERICA!!!! **** YEAH!!" kind of guy. It wouldn't be hard to do.
And let's not forget either that Cap in the 70s and 80s was someone who believed in the overall mission and in his country more than just in what his politician bosses tell him to do. Anyone remember when he went as The Captain? Or how about the recent Civil War stuff where he fought against registration? Basically, Cap isn't blindly jingoistic (as in, loves war), nor a reflexively law-and-order-the-bosses-told-me-to-do-it type.
He's someone who loves his country and what he believes it represents, and he's proud to be a symbol in that cause. I guess, to me, I make a distinction between someone who's a "jingoistic American flag waver" and someone who genuinely loves the ideals this country stands for. Those two things aren't at all the same. So, yeah, I agree with Johnston that that's NOT what Cap is.
Now, as for the "different spin", I have no idea what he's talking about, unless he means "different" from "jingoistic American flag-waver." In which case, I'd assume that means "different from what a lot of people reflexively think Cap is, just because he wears the stars and stripes."
Check out Frank Miller's run on Daredevil in the Born Again TPB. Cap makes an appearance in there and, to me, it sort of embodies who Cap is. He'll break the law and disobey orders when those orders are, in his view, illegal. He deeply loves this country, including the symbolism (yes, the flag), and recognizes what it means, but he also doesn't blindly kowtow to authorities. I think you can make a film with all of that set in WWII, keeping the character very idealistic, as long as those ideals don't simply boil down to Team America.
Guys, maybe what needs to be reassessed is the term 'flag waver'. It denotes extreme patriotism. Captain America is a patriot, indeed, but extreme he is not. He doesn't blindly go around promoting America's ideologies while damning everything else that goes against that. He does fight for what's "right" and not just for America.
One example that comes to mind, he stood against the US government's superhero registration act during Marvel's Civil War arc because he thought it was wrong and that revealing a heroes identity and keeping such information in any database inadvertently endangers everyone connected to that person should said database be compromised, which could have certainly happened during the dark reign arc. Would a 'flag waver' stand against his own government?
Oh and BB43MAN, I believe you'd have to ask Joe Johnston for your money back where Cap is concerned.
Anyway, I look forward to it regardless. It is just a movie interpretation after all, not an intended faithful translation direct to film, and I'm interest to see this take on Cap.
Ryu
One example that comes to mind, he stood against the US government's superhero registration act during Marvel's Civil War arc because he thought it was wrong and that revealing a heroes identity and keeping such information in any database inadvertently endangers everyone connected to that person should said database be compromised, which could have certainly happened during the dark reign arc. Would a 'flag waver' stand against his own government?
Oh and BB43MAN, I believe you'd have to ask Joe Johnston for your money back where Cap is concerned.
Anyway, I look forward to it regardless. It is just a movie interpretation after all, not an intended faithful translation direct to film, and I'm interest to see this take on Cap.
Ryu
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Nice to hear from someone who's actually read the comics.
Nick
Nick
mbmcfarland
Sr Member
I have to chime in here, because this is something I have thought about a lot over the years.
Fortunately, nearly every writer after Stan Lee has tried to pull off this same trick with Cap. That's one of the reasons he hasn't fought in an actual war since Viet Nam. (I talked with Mark Gruenwald about it one time during the first Gulf War, since he was adamant about steering clear of that conflict entirely.) Yet, somehow Captan America still stands for America first and foremost.
Writers tend to say that Cap is a Democrat because he grew up in the Great Depression. He's probably a Roosevelt Democrat, which is a bit different that the present-day version. I am willing to accept the idea that he represents the "American dream" or some vague notion of "everything that is good about America" rather than any specific ideology, but he's got to be fundamentally American. After all, he's not Captain Planet and "that A on his head doesn't stand for France."
-Mike
Fortunately, nearly every writer after Stan Lee has tried to pull off this same trick with Cap. That's one of the reasons he hasn't fought in an actual war since Viet Nam. (I talked with Mark Gruenwald about it one time during the first Gulf War, since he was adamant about steering clear of that conflict entirely.) Yet, somehow Captan America still stands for America first and foremost.
Writers tend to say that Cap is a Democrat because he grew up in the Great Depression. He's probably a Roosevelt Democrat, which is a bit different that the present-day version. I am willing to accept the idea that he represents the "American dream" or some vague notion of "everything that is good about America" rather than any specific ideology, but he's got to be fundamentally American. After all, he's not Captain Planet and "that A on his head doesn't stand for France."
-Mike
Zombie_61
Master Member
Just to be clear, you're quoting Geoff Boucher here (the author of the article), not Joe Johnston.
DARTH SABER
Master Member
Well, the article only mentioned her costume change as the reasoning for fan commotion. (and I don't really keep up with Wonder Woman news).
An article such as this doesn't help matters any.
Unless Joe Johnston is lying or the article is fake, I see no reason to claim that "we know ZERO about the movie"....So far we KNOW exactly what Joe Johnston stated.
As some here have said, Cap from the comics wasn't a zombie patriot (And I agree with this)...I dont expect Captain America to run around shoving a flag in people's faces or telling people to be more "American"....However I do expect him to be patriotic .
Now what bothers me is, if the director considers the comic book version of Captain America "Jingoistic" (which many here have agreed that he's not), then I can only imagine the end product will be even LESS patriotic.
We can nitpick details about what makes someone patriotic or not, but the real question I have is -
Why is Joe Johnston even making these changes in the first place?
If it's not that big of a deal, then why make the changes?
WHy doesn't Joe Johnston go a step further and just change the character from Captain America, to Captain Earth, and make him a mercenary who can be hired by any country that shares his view of right or wrong during any given time?
You realize this is the RPF, right?
Getting our panties in a wad over such stuff is almost a job requirement around here. :lol
Is this coming from the same guy who was slamming the upcoming Hobbit movie?:lol
Quote -
http://www.therpf.com/f12/del-toro-leaves-hobbit-87530/
micdavis said:
DARTH SABER
Master Member
And no one knows Captain America??
So basically, its OK for you to pass judgement on a film you've never seen...but it's not OK for someone else tyo pass judgement on a film they've never seen?
Got it.
I never said you did.
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EvilRocketeer
Master Member
rocketeer25
Sr Member
Nowadays, it's all about the $$$. If you want to make the really big bucks, the movie has to do well not just in the US, but in the international market as well.
That's why in the latest Superman movie, they had Perry White say "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff!"... couldn't even have him say that Superman stands for the "American" way.
That's why in the latest Superman movie, they had Perry White say "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff!"... couldn't even have him say that Superman stands for the "American" way.
Contec
Master Member
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