What is recasting, really??

[Tan Djarka]

Wanna recoup your investment in a production made prop? Sell it. Wanna share it with the community? Loan it out. Wanna make a prop replica yourself and sell copies to recoup your expenses? Get a license from the studio.

Those are your only options.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

i also want to say since this is a hobby, i think its wrong anyone should be making a profit off of it. i think if someone makes an item, and intends to sell it, should only charge for materials after the original item has been paid off. that applies not only to recasters, but to the original artist. if you intend to make a profit off something it becomes more than the hobby, it becomes work and another source of income. i know of some people who wont admit to it being another source of income, but have sales on their products because someone else is offering the same thing (not recast) for a lower price all the time. you dont have a sale on something you're already selling for beer money. you know?

Sorry, I just find this attitude funny. Should this be for all hobbies, or only movie props? There are some world-class artists on here who bring immense talent, technique and equipment to bear to create some incredible items. And so just because it's a "hobby", I shouldn't pay them accordingly for their time, and possibly things like specialized software, cnc time, laser-time etc? Many of the makers on here have invested heavily in their ability to produce these items and should see a return on that investment.


As for recasting, I usually take (a quantum of) solace in the fact that most recasters are no talent hacks, who usually make something that looks slightly better that a resin pile of dog poo-poo. After all, if they had any talent, they probably wouldn't need to be recasters... would they?

 

[themanwoaname]

Sorry, I just find this attitude funny. Should this be for all hobbies, or only movie props?

this is thedefinition of a hobby.
an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation.

what i said in my other response applies to all hobbies. i was a gijoe customizer for years. i grew out of it and it lost its fun when people were customizing gijoes and posting their ebay auctions to show off their figures. i havent seen it as often in the replica movie prop community, but i have seen it. i dont have interest in my hobbies to make money. when people make that their main focus, it takes the fun out of it.

for a third time, ive given or thrown away 6 of 7 ghostbusters proton packs ive made. i easily could have dumped them on ebay for 400 bucks, but id rather someone take it upon themselves to make their own, or start from one i gave them(i usually gut my electronics) so they can appreciate their proton pack as much as i appreciate mine. i feel if someone just buys a proton pack, they dont appreciate it as much as one they put alot of work into making from the ground up. i cut my teeth in prop making building a pack, and i want everyone that has an enthusiasm for prop making or want a proton pack to make their own so they can experience the same exhilaration i feel when im looking at my finished proton pack. maybe thats why i just keep building them, i could have stopped around the 4th one.

There are some world-class artists on here who bring immense talent, technique and equipment to bear to create some incredible items. And so just because it's a "hobby", I shouldn't pay them accordingly for their time, and possibly things like specialized software, cnc time, laser-time etc? Many of the makers on here have invested heavily in their ability to produce these items and should see a return on that investment.

this is what i said about that earlier

i think if someone makes an item, and intends to sell it, should only charge for materials after the original item has been paid off.

i understand that some people are better than others at certain things. i dont think its entirely fair to take something you're good at, and feel other people might want, and charge them over and over for the use of your original item. after a while you make your money back. if you want your item to be special and you want to sell it, do a limited run. i see them here alot, thats really cool, arent they priced basically what i said above?

there are some people who ive discussed this with who say they are not in this hobby to make money, and its not a source of income. however, they charge people for the use of their original item, which in time is paid for, since they are not in this for another source of income, they shouldnt continue to charge half the price of their cast to the use of the original item in question. however, i understand recouping costs of the materials it took to make the orginal item, for your time and talent to make it, and for the materials and time it takes to make a cast however eventually, its paid off, and then you're just making profit. for one to say they arent in it for money, to do the above, makes their very argument moot to me.

i could also throw in ive heard the above from people who im almost 100 percent positive do not own the licensing to create and resell that item and are reusing an original that they didnt make (but purchased) and are selling casts of. doesnt that even throw the "recast" finger pointing out the window?

let me know if that's not clear, it seems alright or a like a run on sentence to me.

i understand some people have better equipment than others. im really dying that i dont have a band saw, a circular saw, a chop saw, and a belt sander. do you know what goes on with a cnc machine? when i worked with one, i put a board on, put in the file i wanted cut out, and left for lunch or screw around the shop. i probably could have taken that gig right from under the cnc guy, if it werent for the fact i cant lug 4X8 sheets of mdf 700 feet all day long.


i am aware that not all recasters are perfect. but think of what you said, not everyone has the same talents, there are some recasters that are just as good at making something than the original maker of the item they're recasting.

 

[Moviefreak]

** shaking head here..... what have I done***:sick


lollol

 

[themanwoaname]

i agree with everything you said except these points.

Conclusion: You CAN'T avoid it! The only way to do so is not to offer casts to the public (even the closes friends can stab you in the back) - if handled this way, this hobby wouldn't be possible.

i dont think people copying original intellectual property is what keeps this hobby going. i was making scratch built props from the start. i purchased my first ever resin kit in march, because i was moving soon and wanted to have something to pass my time with out getting too terribly involved in something. its also going to be my last resin kit, not because i was unimpressed, because i really dont know much about blade runner, id rather build my own props.

so i could do with out the public casts, and have some more encouragement to others to create their own with tips, ideas, and research. im not here to buy or sell, im here to create, learn and grow as a prop maker. that should be everyone's number one priority here.

100 % fanmade work (sculpt, build, whatever) - RECAST.
Production made/screenused - COPY.
Where no licenses are anymore (f.e Don Post) - COPY.

if i were a prop maker for a major movie, and my original prop that i built spending countless hours was recast and sold, i would hold that person to the same standards as a recaster. there is no difference between making your own item a and someone else selling it, vs a production designer making an item a and someone else selling it.

and don post? he makes starwars helmets doesnt he? they're cheap and you can buy them in stores. why would anyone want to recast that stuff when they can make something far more accurate and better?

 

[fuelish]

i am aware that not all recasters are perfect. but think of what you said, not everyone has the same talents, there are some recasters that are just as good at making something than the original maker of the item they're recasting.

So if I take a photo of the Mona Lisa and scale it to full size, then print copies of it, I have the same skill as da Vinci?

I believe you have a very limited grasp of what it takes to aquire skill and mastery of a field.

 

[T2SF]

I really want CAD files for a plasma rifle. I thought about scanning the Side Show Plasma Rifle or the Morgan plasma rifle currently for sale. After it was scanned it would have to be cleaned up and modified. Question is how much modification would be required to be your own? It's mostly a personal project that could end up into limited kits. I'll probably never get around to it, but just for curiositys sake.

 

[themanwoaname]

So if I take a photo of the Mona Lisa and scale it to full size, then print copies of it, I have the same skill as da Vinci?

I believe you have a very limited grasp of what it takes to aquire skill and mastery of a field.

i think you have a very limited grasp of what i said.

because if you did, you would know that i have a very good idea of mastery and skill in the field of prop making. not everyone just makes molds and casts.

 

[fuelish]

i think you have a very limited grasp on what i said.

Not really.


Suppose I make a Death Eater mask(Harry Potter) in Copper(Shaped on a bag, slapper smoothes, pieces soldered, hand finished. Fifty plus hours of work) I sell it to you. You make a form of it and do resin copies. You are equating your skill at making a mold to my skill in cutting and forming mutliple pieces of flat sheet into a dimensional detailed object, so that you can sell them over and over from hours of hardwork that I barely coverd costs(At even ten bucks an hour) guaranteeing I will recover even less of my cost of effort thru lost future sales.

 

[Art Andrews]

With some of the publicity the RPF has gotten through more mainstream venues coupled with the numerous registration periods, I think we're seeing an influx of "fair weather" members who just don't get it.

I want to agree with you, but at the end of the day, the truth is that MOST (not all) people's definition of recasting has an unsurprisingly perculiar slant in their favor ("well, I can copy this because of X and X... but NO ONE else can or they are a recaster!"). With so many people having so many different definitions of what recasting is, virtually all of which are ultimately self-serving, are you surprised that new members are confused.

Even among the more seasoned members there is quite a bit of debate about whether or not it is acceptable to recast a screen used item... or a copy of a screen used item... or whether it is ok to recast an item from a defunct licensee..

The problem is, at some point, virtually everyone has to try to jusitfy the unjustifiable and weasel their way around why it is ok for them but not for member X because if they didn't, they wouldn't have quite a few of the pieces they love.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

It's not out of their control. They can either do what tosphaser does and just continue or they do what most people do - they just stop making new stuff, which is a terrible loss to the whole community.

i dont agree with this. are you the type of person to stop doing your hobby becasue of that? i can see not making things available for sale, but not stop entirely. this is my hobby, i enjoy doing this, i wouldnt let anything stop me from continuing with it.

I'm saying I won't stop doing it, but I would surely stop offering anything to the screaming masses. And still, what do these people get for it? Angry people screaming bloody murder because they can't get a cast from that item he's showing off, calling him elitist and all sorts of nonsense. Burn me once and I may come back, burn me twice and I'll say screw you too.

And when you are in this community you don't have the luxury to just look the other way, like someone not knowing about recasts and originals can. You've been informed and if you still buy recasts and supporting recasters that's showing something about your character.

If two friends wants armor, they should both buy a set each. It never just stops with one... molds are expensive and soon there'll be one for another fried, and another and another. Sorry to say... we've seen it happen too many times to buy into the naive notion that "oh, we're only gonna make one". And... IF you really wanted to make one for your friend, how about asking the original maker... he might actually be cool with it and give you permission. That happens sometimes too you know, if you actually cared to ask. But recasters don't ask, they just recast. You wanna be one of those self-serving people?

And LOL... are you for real? Who are you to demand anything about what is sold and how it is sold and at what price? Maybe you should try actually looking into what some of these things actually cost to produce, from tooling, to molding to casting before piping up with such nonsense. If people charged pr hour for what they were doing, things would be a HELL of a lot more expensive.

Or perhaps it'd be a boon to the community? People would have to make what they want, instead of just throwing money at someone else who can. Maybe more of us would be actual hobbyists rather than collectors and consumers.

Give me a break. Like anyone can "sculpt" a TM, SL, DJ, VP Vader helmet with all the screen used Tantive details still inherent in those sculpt. Yeah right. I'm not a builder, I learned that LONG ago, so what you are saying is that there is no room for me in this hobby. Thank you very much.

When I see a product offered here that is basically just a cleaned up recast, I lose interest in it pretty quickly. Most of the time I comment about it and others comment about it, but I'm not the prop police and can't deal with everything. But I try to help keep the original maker or provider of an item free of recasting scum and the greedy buyers just wanting what they want without a care for the community or where the item came from - I don't much care for the "me, me, me"s of the world.

In absolute terms I see no moral distinction between copying the work of a studio artist and that of an independent artist. Within the community, however, is a different matter as apparently "we" live by a different moral code.

It's all illegal, unless you make something completely original, you have NO RIGHTS, ergo, you are morally in the wrong.

Look at it this way. The studio doesn't have a product out, they are not losing money off of it, otherwise they would have had a product out and no one would complain or recast it. All we get from the studios is licensees who don't make perfect replicas.

The fan is losing big time on it. Their work, their time, their interest in making more.

Who do you think is losing more on recasting?

And SkYNET: before the producer of the cast from screen used came along - that product didn't exist in that form. Before the producer of the self sculpted or scratchbuilt piece came along - that product didn't exist in that form. Both are in the wrong legal wise. How you can distinguish between the two and only want to protect one is just beyond me.

I really want CAD files for a plasma rifle. I thought about scanning the Side Show Plasma Rifle or the Morgan plasma rifle currently for sale. After it was scanned it would have to be cleaned up and modified. Question is how much modification would be required to be your own? It's mostly a personal project that could end up into limited kits. I'll probably never get around to it, but just for curiositys sake.

No matter how you slice it, it will ALWAYS just be a copy or reworked copy of those original licensed pieces - and should be advertised as such and not your own.

 

[Wolfie]

I want to agree with you, but at the end of the day, the truth is that MOST (not all) people's definition of recasting has an unsurprisingly perculiar slant in their favor ("well, I can copy this because of X and X... but NO ONE else can or they are a recaster!"). With so many people having so many different definitions of what recasting is, virtually all of which are ultimately self-serving, are you surprised that new members are confused.

Even among the more seasoned members there is quite a bit of debate about whether or not it is acceptable to recast a screen used item... or a copy of a screen used item... or whether it is ok to recast an item from a defunct licensee..

The problem is, at some point, virtually everyone has to try to jusitfy the unjustifiable and weasel their way around why it is ok for them but not for member X because if they didn't, they wouldn't have quite a few of the pieces they love.

Well said, Art. I think this is the closest anyone's ever posted on the subject to how I see the arguement of recasting.

Personally, I feel even casting off a direct production item is still recasting. I'd prefer to buy something someone sculpted from the ground up where replicas are concerned. Or just buying a production item.

Granted even sculpting something from someone elses work and then selling it for profit is still stealing intellectual property. So its eggshells regardless. If you cast off production stuff you'll say you dont recast but the person who makes a 2nd gen off your production recast is completely a recaster.

I get more upset when I see someone recasting someones work here who actually went through the trouble of sculpting and building all their molds etc because I know that took months and months of work and effort and sweat and blood and tears.

 

[propologist]

** shaking head here..... what have I done***:sick


lollol

Don't worry it's a normal debate that never get vetted enough . people agree to disagree and it's goes out until a newbie posts like you did. No harm.

For my take , as originally a fine artist, I had never heard of " recasting" until I joined this site and am amazed at how much time is wasted on pursing others about it.
To me it seems like you have " arrived" if you get recast, meaning your work is resalable for many reasons. I won't be upset if it happens to me oneday , because I would have made my money on whatever it was that's recast , so I will worry about other things like real life..lol

...I have to admit , it truly makes me smile seeing everyone worry about things they can't control. Maybe the same people are writing letters to the Gas companies about high gas prices too.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

If you cast off production stuff you'll say you dont recast but the person who makes a 2nd gen off your production recast is completely a recaster.

Before the cast off screen used producer, there was no such item in that form. Who's he hurting?

The 2nd caster takes something someone else is offering or has offered - so he's effectively hurting the first guy. The recaster plays the Robin Hood card of offering the good stuff cheaper, but he didn't risk damaging and devaluing the original piece, he just took what someone else had done. If the recaster really was that "for the community", then he should get the original screen used piece, mold that and see if he'll still be offering casts at that low price. Until then, he's just blowing hot air out of his ass.

The term recasting was coined in the model kit community to label those who stole from others. Sure, things are simpler in that community as they don't have the cast from screen used category to muddy things up.

And cast from screen used is far and above everything anybody can sculpt.or scratchbuild in terms of accuracy to the real prop, if that's the niche hobby you belong to.

I get more upset when I see someone recasting someones work here who actually went through the trouble of sculpting and building all their molds etc because I know that took months and months of work and effort and sweat and blood and tears.

And you don't think it took effort and sweat and blood and tears to try to mold the screen used piece without damaging or devaluing it? Until a recaster tries that, makes the investment, molds it, and offers casts as cheap as he does now... then I'll agree that the original maker was perhaps overcharging. Until then... well... not likely gonna happen, now does it.

...I have to admit , it truly makes me smile seeing everyone worry about things they can't control. Maybe the same people are writing letters to the Gas companies about high gas prices too.

Sounds more like something those buying and supporting recasters do. They complain and complain about high prices.

 

[Mercury]

** shaking head here..... what have I done***:sick


lollol

Nothing that hasn't been done before. These debates always let everyone know where some people stand, so in that sense it does serve a purpose.

I won't be upset if it happens to me oneday , because I would have made my money on whatever it was that's recast , so I will worry about other things like real life..lol

...I have to admit , it truly makes me smile seeing everyone worry about things they can't control. Maybe the same people are writing letters to the Gas companies about high gas prices too.

So if you spend time, effort & money on a sculpt, build, etc. and then sell casts until you've recouped your money, you'd be ok with someone recasting your piece and claiming it as their own? Which recasters tend to do until they are "outed". That would apply to pretty much everything I suppose. :rolleyes

As far as gas, I drive 100s of miles a week for work, so I do get upset about the price of gas regardless of whether I have control of it. It eats into the bottom line. You're evidently much wealthier than a lot of us. Besides, comparing the gas companies take to a minor profit for an individual is a stretch tbh.

I see nothing wrong with making a profit on their work. If it means I have to wait to get something or miss out, so be it. At one time this was pretty clear cut.

 

[BronzeGiant]

i also want to say since this is a hobby, i think its wrong anyone should be making a profit off of it. i think if someone makes an item, and intends to sell it, should only charge for materials after the original item has been paid off. that applies not only to recasters, but to the original artist. if you intend to make a profit off something it becomes more than the hobby, it becomes work and another source of income. i know of some people who wont admit to it being another source of income, but have sales on their products because someone else is offering the same thing (not recast) for a lower price all the time. you dont have a sale on something you're already selling for beer money. you know?

I gotta disagree with this. Making a profit allows you to continue making new items and expanding your collection. If you don't allow profits and just allow someone to recoup materials costs then you're suggesting that the time taken to create the item is worth nothing??? I don;t think so.

Steve

 

[BedlamX]

I want to agree with you, but at the end of the day, the truth is that MOST (not all) people's definition of recasting has an unsurprisingly perculiar slant in their favor ("well, I can copy this because of X and X... but NO ONE else can or they are a recaster!"). With so many people having so many different definitions of what recasting is, virtually all of which are ultimately self-serving, are you surprised that new members are confused.

Even among the more seasoned members there is quite a bit of debate about whether or not it is acceptable to recast a screen used item... or a copy of a screen used item... or whether it is ok to recast an item from a defunct licensee..

The problem is, at some point, virtually everyone has to try to jusitfy the unjustifiable and weasel their way around why it is ok for them but not for member X because if they didn't, they wouldn't have quite a few of the pieces they love.

cheers:thumbsup

Spot on

 

[RPGnerd]

I have a thought experiment related to recasting, time and copywrite.

I'm a historical reenactor portraying a 13th century crusader. I have a 20x20 foot pavilion that I furnish with replica medieval furniture and tapestry.

I need replicas of 13th century tapestry, woven replicas cost between $250-$4000 and are generally unavailable.

I'm thinking of taking high quality photos of 13th century originals and sending them to a company that produces "photo blankets" to make a large cloth tapestry to cheaply (about $80) have a period looking tapestry to adorn my period pavilion.

I feel no ethical problems with this as
1. The original artist is long dead (700+years)
2. The artist is not being cheated, or losing profit to said devalued art as no devaluing is possible.

But on some level it's a recast, I'm just using a photo and having a company use a machine to produce it.

Did the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" practice recasting when they made molds of 12-13th century cast bronze weapons and recast rubber copies? Did they commit recasting when they took those recast weapons and recast them again as metal copies?

Technically it's a casting of a casting (and the licensed props further recastings of the recast casting).

I say KOH is ok as it's over 700yrs like I'm considering of doing with the tapestry(s).

I think relating this to copywrite/public domain also matters. Many pre 1920 books can be printed and profited on by anyone. Some movies have to become public domain.

I'm just curious what people think about casts from movie prop from a movie that has fallen into public domain. Will this be more of an issue in 20-30yrs as more movies fall into public domain? Time seems to factor in....

 

[Wolfie]

Before the cast off screen used producer, there was no such item in that form. Who's he hurting?

The artist who made the original item for the screen. He's hurting licensees who may have licenses to create (maybe crappily sure, not accurate enough) the replicas, which money goes back to the studio who paid to have the item created.

Sure, those people are probably rich too , being studios and having large budgets, but still there is an original prop maker who's being ripped off. regardless of the price its being sold at.

The cost thing doesnt bother me. I understand recouping the money you put into an item, but why did you buy that item in the first place is my thought. If I buy a production item its because i wanted it, so the money was well spent, I still have the real production item. Making a mold of it would just be gravy. Extra $ and the awesomeness of having shared the item with the community. Recouping should be recouping of materials, materials to make the molds, etc. Not the original item because in the end you still have that item. If you bought the item ONLY to cast and resell it than it really is even more close to recasting/theft just the same.

But no matter what you wrap it in and the pretty bow you put on it, you're still stealing someone elses art and recasting it, production model or not. Thats just how I see it. And no, I dont see as much blood, sweat, and tears going into buying something versus sculpting something from scratch. I've bought production items (though I dont cast off them) , the only tears came from the buyers regret later of the $$ I paid for them lol

I certainly didnt spend hours and hours looking at references and buying clay and sculpting stuff. I might have spent hours scouring the internet for someone to buy the production items from, but no skill was needed on my end to buy it. Just $$ and sometimes connections. I spent a LOT more time looking up pictures and things to build / sew a battlestar galactica holster than I did buying battlestar props. Same with some Star Wars rebel helmets (though I ended up backing out of buying them because the seller just seemed to keep going back and forth on how much to sell it for) versus the time spend building one.

But regardless its always going to be something open to some interpretation. Thats just how I see it, and why I prefer to buy stuff someone sculpted or put the time into to find original materials things were made from, thats prop making/replicating to me. :love

More power to people who go out and find and cast production stuff. I dont hate anyone who does that or think poorly on them , I just find it silly when they then complain they too were recasted later.


RPGNerd, I agree with you, when movies become public domain, that is something to consider... at that point the studios and licensees no longer have a claim. So more power to them. So lets see some Secret of the Incas production item casts!! lol

Tapestries and weapons of ages past are different as well, they arent owned by a studio/blacksmith/weaver guild etc anymore because those things are long gone. If Marvel tanked tomorrow and all the items went public domain not bought up by some other company, then I can see that being completely kosher to cast off whatever anyone wanted.
I imagine in the ages you speak of if someone was found selling replicas of some famous persons tapestries, they'd lose a hand or something lol

 

[Trekkie313]

I hate to be nit-picky but the spelling errors in this thread astound me.