Terminator: Genisys

[Cpl Potter]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

roland could play arnold , the guy from the spartacus prequil could play kyle reese , and sgt burton could play franco columbos role in the reboot .just spitballing

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Zombie Killer. I still don't understand your argument about creating something from nothing. They clearly don't. So what makes you come to that conclusion. I've tried re-reading your posts and I still can't find heads and tails in your argument. I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand where you are coming from and why you think as you do. I don't understand it, so maybe I'm missing something and a better explanation could perhaps enlighten me?

EDIT: are you looking at time travel from the perspective of the time traveler or from the perspective of the timeline?

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

The T600's rubber skin was just a visual camouflage at a distance and nothing else. It was never meant to be skin, organic or fool people. The jump from the initial tank treads and such prior to the T600 was the human form is a well balanced and viable design. Why else would machines design a machine that mimics a human shape? Every model number is a major change which is why Marcus is normal sized. The T700 is much the T800 design yet made of inferior materials. It was to be a weak metal without a learning processor. In other words more or less a T600 operating system on a smaller more compact T700 frame. The main difference between that and the T800 would be hardened metals, the learning processor and ability to maintain living tissue. Its a shame the T700 was just flat out ignored and cut from TS.


Again with the time travel and Skynet building a machine to transport humans, it doesnt make any sense what so ever. When you buy a car you dont buy a train, you get what suits your lifestyle and needs. The argument Skynet would build it to send humans back is almost absurd. Regardless if its designed to not transport machines (again thats just the opposite of what they wanted) or weapons a person sent back could alter the time line against Skynet just as Skynet has done to mankind. It doesnt take weapons to do that, it was done in T2. Sara knew the future as she was given the info about it so she altered the future. Yet again, altered, meaning postponed as the events will still happen and the end all time line is when the time machine is destroyed, 2032.
There is no happy ending unless future time travel was possible. In the Terminator universe, its not.


If hybrids had any involvement in the time machine program and build, then yes, thats the explanation for living tissue. Skynet knows the past. As stated they gave up on trying to send back machines to take out people and started sending technology files back in time. Maybe its possible the time machine program was targeted at Marcus all along. I suppose thats the easy way out if TS didnt muck it up in the final edit. Yet now we have no other hybrids other than Marcus in TS which puts loads of weight on a potential T5 to deliver a very detailed plot. It would have to make some firm mention of hybrids and such being researched and developed, the T700 death squads, the resistance infiltrating Skynet main bases, JC Jr being born, JC Sr's death, Marcus' return, Kyle becoming a man, the rumored time machine (and possible time traveling which set off the events in T2/T3), the Arnold T800 being captured and reprogrammed, hybrids joining the resistance, human farms and death camps...
Its a three hour Terminator movie and that would lead into T6 which is set 12 or so years AFTER T5. That would allow JC Jr to be old enough to have grown up in the wastelands, learn all he needs to know (kids always figure out technology faster than adults), he has the Arnold T800 as his guardian (the one that killed JC Sr in T5), is involved with the raid and destruction of the working time machine that sends Kyle and the T800 back to the events in T1, and realizes nobody has won the war. In fact, the only way humanity could now survive is if Skynet had succeeded with the hybrids.

There were serious discussions on these things while filming TS. I seriously dont comprehend what was the theatrical release of TS. I imagine its the same thing as waking up with a massive headache in Texas next to a Filipino transvestite yet the night before you were with a white trash truck stop ***** in Alabama. Just no idea what happened inbetween or how you got there, but you got a very bad feeling about it.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Yeah... if you want to try to make sense of the stuff made after T1 and things that wasn't even on screen for TS, sure. But it's easy enough to just ignore all that and go for the accurate T1 future war and not worry about all those ret-cons, strange ideas and things that don't fit, rather than try to shoe-horn it in and try to make sense of it. Instead of having to make a 3-5 hour movie or two movies to explain all that crap, just have a normal length movie that doesn't deal with it at all.

Problem solved.


EDIT: the so-called knowledge that things can be postponed, but is inevitable comes from a Terminator. Excuse me, but even with enormous amounts of tests, how would Skynet know for sure? And the Terminator only relays what it has stored of information, so that's hardly facts, still theory. Postponing things and you can stop them completely from happening - Skynet clearly has just not calculated that conclusion and therefore the information stored on the Terminator spouting that nonsense is just that: nonsense. So really not something worth considering as fact. Though... in T1 it HAD calculated that conclusion seeing as it attempted just that: stopping something from happening - the birth of John Connor. So... T3 again makes no sense.

EDIT2: And only T3 made the conclusion that anything that happened in T2 changed anything. + that cut end scene of Sarah in the future on the playground. The theatrical cut and even the shorter extended version has no proof that anything was changed.

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Deleted scenes are just that, cut. If TS was a complete film with all the deleted plot and footage put back in it would be a different movie as well. By ignoring past films and doing what you suggest is exactly what happened with the theatrical cut of TS. TS the movie does nothing, it goes nowhere, it really adds nothing, it solves nothing, its mindless dribble, big explosions...

A Terminator has detailed files, it doesnt have every detail about Skynet's plans, the time machine, the end time line... It only has the info it needs to do its job. Skynet knows its being infiltrated just as the humans know they are being infiltrated by Terminators. You never give a grunt or operative unlimited access to all your secrets and strategy. Marcus didnt even get this info, just the info detailing the job at hand. He was later told the plot in typical James Bond fashion by the main evil bad guy (Skynet).


By all means if you have a better idea to tie everything together run with it. This was all stuff talked about and it makes sense unless its over thought. There is no perfect solution or rabbit in the hat to salvage every detail, just the ones that matter. For every overly thinking detail hunting fan boy there are 10,000 movie goers. These are the types that still believe "the Sign" was a good movie with a twist ending and are responsible for the Twilight movies being successful. They dont think, they are hand fed. Its great to see these types watch Southland Tales and then say they didnt get it, it was too confusing.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Haven't seen Southland Tales. May just do that to see if I get it.

Anyway... you are right. A grunt "terminator" doesn't know all. Which is also why you cannot really trust what the terminator in T3 is telling John and Kate about time travel theory. It doesn't know more than what it has on file and unlike Reese who acknowledged he didn't know, the terminator would recite it as FACT, even when it isn't.

But you are attacking this story-line from pieces that weren't in any of the movies, so, it is just as little fact as the cut scenes. But you seem to be close to the production of T4 and a potential T5 and could know where things are going, but for the rest of us, until it's up on screen it is not fact: canon.

Also, think about it. What actually happens in T2 - if you forget T3 for a moment and runs with the unchangeable past and future concept? Sarah, John and the Terminator run through hoops and does a lot of damage, but in the theatrical cut, there is no real conclusion as to whether they actually changed anything or just did exactly as they were supposed to. What facts do we know? The terminator talks about the history of Cyberdyne and the creation of Skynet and the man most mainly responsible, being Dyson. Well, they get to Dyson and he helps them break in and destroy the chip and arm and the research and half of the Cyberdyne building. But then... did that actually change or stop anything? In fact, it could be a big fat NO! And here's why.

Cyberdyne is already established as a company willing to lie. It lies to its employees, it lies to everyone else and as a result: Sarah Connor is in a mental institution. So, is it so hard to assume that the company, who's on the brink of a major discovery doesn't have back-ups of all Dyson's research stored somewhere safe? That they are not willing to lie about the terrorist incident committed by the Connors and their main employee - lying about him being even killed - to save their stock value and assure their shareholders that things are not as bad as rumored and even going to great lengths to compensate Dyson's widow or putting a gag order on her regarding talking about her husband... and just keep putting his name on the final development of the chip system that eventually creates Skynet. They wouldn't be dumb enough, now that one main employee got blown up in the attempt to eradicate the work, to want to give the Connors any chance of finding the real guy responsible for the further development. + if they lie to the public... they'd probably not have written documents revealing the truth, so again: Skynet's knowledge is limited to what is fed to it by Cyberdyne.

But, acknowledging T3 and that T2 altered things. It can easily still work, because, again, the terminator spewing theory as fact really doesn't know, it just doesn't have the capacity to realize it. So, things can be altered AND can be stopped altogether, so again: nothing is certain... but with all these changes... it simply doesn't link back to T1 in any way - it links back to another '84 incident, as these later movies are in other timelines altogether. And, if you accept the possibility of alternate timelines, there can even exist timelines where there is no future war, no terminators and ultimately... no John Connor - in that time line Sarah may have died an old spinster or given birth to a girl or even several kids and not one of them named John. THAT'S the effect of multiple timeline theory. NOTHING is certain, 'cause you can just go back in time and change it, but unlike the fixed timeline theory where you jump back in time to your own past, with multiple timeline theory, not only do you jump in time, you also jump timeline and you never get back to the original timeline and that timeline goes on without you as if nothing even happened.

Which is why that you can do any sort of movie now, because that is what multiple timeline theory allows. But you CAN save the series and include everything from T1 to T4 - you just have to acknowledge what is FACT and what is THEORY and therefore not necessary to adhere to.

There IS no fate but what we make... so technically, there is no end date.

I can accept a movie that includes everything - just loose the comedy and gags - but would prefer something that is a continuation of the T1 timeline.

 

[ONEYE]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Also... being in a post apocalyptic world. Skynet doesn't have endless supplies and endless machine building capabilities. It is limited, so has to consider how it treats its machines in combat. That's also one of the things I dislike about the T3 future scene. It just seems like an endless supply of machines with an over-abundance of resources. It makes it totally unbelievable and though catering to the fan of what could be cool to see, it totally misses the point of the desperate struggle - not only for the humans, but for Skynet as well. Making the enemy too powerful and its fall ends up being so unrealistic and implausible that it stinks - and it's something that lazy writers have a tendency of doing.

Here I have to disagree with you, and unfortunately, I have to use what was seen in T-3 to back it up a bit. Skynet was up and running in the movie, it created a virus as a ruse to gain full control from the humans. I imagine with the speed and efficiency that Skynet, access to all information, it was able to not only control the missiles that attacked Russia, it still had control of missile defense. Skynet knew where supplies where, which factories it needed, etc. If I was Skynet, I would safeguard those areas. I would not let them get destroyed. At most, I would allow them to be contaminated with radiation to prevent humans from going there or getting in the way. I also would have powered them down to protect them from EMP. I would have safeguarded and re-routed power supplies to have them ready for use when needed. Radiation would not be a Skynet concern. Ok, maybe this is a stretch, but it is self-aware and knows what it needs to pull this off.

Skynet would also eliminate as many humans as possible during the nuclear attacks. Imagine a nuclear armed submarine being hit by a nuclear missile? Can you see the coastal populations being destroyed by tsunamis? Man would that be a hell of a thing.

I could also see other scenarios where Skynet continues the attack by raising the sea levels by nuking/melting/destroying the polar ice caps.

The speed, analysis and information available to Skynet would give it the advantage of figuring out how best to use all assets natural and man made to an unltimate, unimagined attack against humanity. That would be one hell of a disaster movie!

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

But thats the thing there is an end all time line. Dont over think it. The films have been made, they exist. Its a movie girl in a movie world, lol. Im a broken record here, the time machine events will happen because they already have in the future. You can not change anything in the past to stop any major events from happening in the terminator universe. The end all time frame is proof. Nothing will change, be altered, postponed after that time machine is busted, which it already has been, in the future present of 2032.

You can personally rule out a movie in the chain but the fact of the matter is that film and its events still happened. Same with it being in the Terminator universe. Either wrap the existing films up proper or move on. I dont think a remake is anywhere near a good idea. Not in this day and age of movie making. The only remake thats been worth a damn is the Dawn of the Dead movie, everything else has been horrible.

Going on with the remake idea, what makes Terminator 1 work is lack of technology. Watch it again, no cell phones, no home computers, nothing. Now go watch the Matrix and Mission Impossible 1 and have a laugh. They are highly out dated. Technology has become an easy out in movie plots and is over played. Its also the easiest way to out date something.
TS had too much technology visible and relied on it heavily to further things as easily as possible. Part of the reason T1 worked so well is technology was still new in the 80's to the general public. People were scared of it, they didnt want to know and it was a geek thing.

Personally I think T1 was already remade, it was T3. Thats what our remake would be. Its a poor looking, lazy, big explosion popcorn fluff movie with horrible youngsters to target the young movie goer. Nothing against the actors really, just horrible choices for the roles. They did the exact same thing with the tv series thats just so terrible I cant watch it.

To continue with a T5 would be to continue with whats already in the prior films. For an idea of what can be done for around $12 million here in the worst of places to film anymore Los Angeles, watch Southland Tales. TS was over $200 million.

 

[ONEYE]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Which is why that you can do any sort of movie now, because that is what multiple timeline theory allows. But you CAN save the series and include everything from T1 to T4 - you just have to acknowledge what is FACT and what is THEORY and therefore not necessary to adhere to.

There IS no fate but what we make... so technically, there is no end date.

I can accept a movie that includes everything - just loose the comedy and gags - but would prefer something that is a continuation of the T1 timeline.

This in essence can save the Terminator franchise. Start with T1, now have the participants travel back in time after the events in T1, but before the events in T2. That would, I hope effectively erase the events from T2, T3 and TS. Wouldn't it? Please say yes!

Fully agree with the loss of comedy and gags, unless it happens by coincedence.

 

[ONEYE]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

This new pre-T2 movie could focus on Sarah Connor and the training of John. The next movie could be the early days of the war, with/or without Sarah and having John be an adult. The final follow-up would be the end of the war/future war. Too simple?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Rob, where do you get the 2032 date from? Was that mentioned in TS? Only saw it once, so might have forgotten. Or was it from T3? Only saw that once, so might have forgotten.

And ONEYE. I'll have to say no. There's no reason to have a time travel plot in the next terminator movie to link it exclusively to T1 and ignore the rest. That's the beauty of multiple timeline theory. They all happened, just in separate timelines, so can be ignored or explored equally. I can see where you are going with the endless supply thing... but even those places rely on other places and enough people and infrastructure to get things made - Skynet cannot both eradicate the human threat and at the same time preserve a unlimited supply type of arrangement for development and manufacture of the machines it needs to battle the survivors. It's logistically just not possible. It is thereby limited and is more vulnerable.

The only way to connect properly with T1 is to accept the fact that the screenwriters and movie makers of T3 and T4 screwed up and just ignore it as an illegitimate child. Like the "unofficial" sequels to Universal Solder - they happened... but were ignored when they made the official sequel. Bryan Singers Superman Returns tried the same, linking back only to Superman 1 and 2 and ignoring the rest... though, he failed. So, it HAS been done before.

 

[TheRealMcFly]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Perhaps the quest to get it all back to T1 'rules' could be the mechanism that ensures the Terminator Franchise NEVER dies.

Films are always a product of the time they were made, which is why I like T1 so much. There's not a lot of technology in that world even though it's the dawn of personal electronics. The dangers of too much technology in our lives has now been traded for faster web access.

But this makes terminator themes even more relevant. How about a continuing series of films always arriving back at T1? Selecting set events in history but changing exactly when they occur gives an opportunity to retell the same kinds of stories in different ways that speak to our present, instead of emulating the look of a now dated film.

I know we can't have it all and again, the more you know what's left out to TS the more Terminator you crave. I still think the hybrids could be worked into a potential TS sequel. Maybe with a new edit on disc and another sequel in the making, Terminator could be redeemed. Heck call it Terminator Redemption. Lol. But it better be rated R, and give us a breast or two.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

The thing also is. If the writer(s) are clever enough and the director bold enough and the studio willing to gamble, you could have a story that revolves around the multiple timeline theory and why whenever things are changed for the better or worse, then another set of travelers from another timeline comes in and interferes. It would be more complex than Back to the Future 2 and that movie really seemed to put people off because of its complex storyline. It can work... and it's also a way to show how Skynet isn't just infecting the past, but infecting other timelines as well, spreading until it controls all of them until if lands on the one where it wins. And since it is a learning computer it will then learn the consequences of winning... 'cause... what is its purpose after having won? It has none. So the question then becomes, is it sentient enough to figure out a new reason for existing, does it evolve? What does it evolve into? What is that future and is it the kind of future it wants? Maybe it realizes it isn't and starts infecting its past and other timelines trying to correct the damage its "younger" less evolved counterpart in other timelines has wrecked in its pursuit for the ultimate conclusion. So, a continuing back and forth between humans and Skynet and even against "young" Skynet and "old" Skynet. Old Skynet can even go so far as to prevent young Skynet from sending back the Terminator in the first place, meaning that Reese don't get sent either and ultimately creating a timeline where John Connor isn't born and the war doesn't happen at all. Though... it would never find out if that timeline had a better outcome than its own, as it is not present there to record it. All this could explain hybrids and terminators working for the human side and humans working for the Skynet side.

We have seen glimpses into other alternate realities and any future movies can continue from any point in the series and still be a Terminator movie.

 

[terryr]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Terminator: Sellthetoys.
If they put the same effort into a storyline as cool toys or fiddling with the cgi backgrounds then we'd have something. There were 7-11 toys for gosh sakes, and a 7-11 in the movie.

If the Terminators are nuclear powered then why didn't the one in T1 use it to blow up Sarah at the end?

Arnold should be done. Not only not a Terminator but kept out. It's the logical thing to do. It would hurt the story.
That model has been seen too much anyway. Arnold was good at it, but there are other big guys that could do it. The Rock, Ronald, a Black guy, a big woman, a fat guy....something unexpected. Marcus was the wrong way, a terminator as hero.

Where were the dogs in T4? There should have been dozens. They were kept out, because they could sense Marcus.

Connor going to Skynet Central? Stupid. And the machines 'own the whole north'. It's like Churchill going to Hitlers Headquarters to save Roosevelt. And then they get out of Germany no problem.

Try to get T5 back on track then finish it properly in T6.

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

I believe the 2032 year comes from JC Jr being around the same age as JC Sr in T2. In T1 Kyle tells Sara that records were scarce about many things. The JC he is referring to may be JC Sr but the machines are technically after JC Jr, they just dont know it because they dont know that Jr actually exists at the end time line. They have a name, a history leading up to it but never know its not the guy were lead to believe. That makes JC Sr the "false prophet" as he is refereed to in the opening of TS.

About alternate time lines, how can that be? The events in every prior film impacts the next. Its not an alternate time line, its how things have happened. John meets Kate, John knocks up Kate, JC Jr is born.

Now think about this, since Skynet is sending technology files back in time, we can see the T1000 program, we can see the gawd awful Terminatrix program, we can see the T900 program. It ties in albeit in a poor fashion, since we have transformers, mototerminators and the T800 a good ten + years too soon. Perhaps the T1000 and Terminatrix are discoveries due to failed time travel attempts. In failed attempts they discover liquid metal...

The Back to the Future 2 type storyline was discussed. This involved time travel going back to T1 and T2. It sounds neat until you get the cheese factory smell. I may have brought that up in this thread or another some time ago. It doesnt make sense and violates the end time line goal making it fit right in with sequels that are not thought through. A set of rules and guidelines need to be established and adhered to. Go watch TS again with what you know now and think of another way it all works. Alternate time lines and infinite time travel have no goal or end then your back to another T3.


On a personal note, I dont understand why people feel a Terminator movie need be rated R? We dont need F-Bombs, boobs, extreme gore or sex to deliver a great Terminator movie. We also dont need pre-teens and emo teens as the leads. If you after F-Bombs, gore and boobs thats what the internet and Playstation/X Box online and horrible Rob Zombie movies are for. For a great Terminator movie we need a film that follows the rules with fitting cinematography, a well rounded script that goes somewhere and a plot that makes you think.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

About alternate time lines, how can that be? The events in every prior film impacts the next. Its not an alternate time line, its how things have happened. John meets Kate, John knocks up Kate, JC Jr is born.

It's alternate timelines for that simple reason that it is not what Reese tells Sarah. He talks about John Connor - Sarah's son. Not John Connor's son.

The fact that John Connor of the future should know every single thing that happened to him in the past and only tells Reese about what basically excludes any of the other movies, it cannot be seen as the same timeline at all, so must therefor be alternate timelines as dictated by the simple fact that when a change is made, the timeline veers off and creates a new timeline. That's how changes can happen if you want to accept multiple timelines. The only ones realizing changes were made were the time travelers - everyone else in the new timeline doesn't. So: new!

The chronology you mention would be perfectly fine for any other movie series, but when you add time travel to the mix and people from the future... evolution like that, which doesn't fit with already established facts from the future, then the only way to explain it is through multiple timelines and that means alternate realities. You cannot have it any other way.

That's what happens when lazy writers want to be "creative".

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

And then the "dont over think it" comes into play. Ive already mentioned there is no 100% solution to the no thought sequels but there is a logical way to bring as much as possible together for the films to make sense. We are talking T5, not a new T2 or new T3.

 

[Zombie Killer]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Zombie Killer. I still don't understand your argument about creating something from nothing. They clearly don't. So what makes you come to that conclusion. I've tried re-reading your posts and I still can't find heads and tails in your argument. I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand where you are coming from and why you think as you do. I don't understand it, so maybe I'm missing something and a better explanation could perhaps enlighten me?

EDIT: are you looking at time travel from the perspective of the time traveler or from the perspective of the timeline?

I guess i am looking at it from a timeline perspective.

The reason i say created from nothing is i mean there is no base timeline for T1. To me anytime you time travel you are splitting off an existing timeline and changing something from that base or existing line to create the new line. In T1 the base timeline starts at the point Reese goes back to 1984. There is no base timeline that a John Conner can exist because he is created by the time travel event. So how does Reese get sent back in time by JC from a base timeline? He can't , he can only be sent back from an already altered timeline, one that a John Conner can exist. You could probably explain it with a few generations of time travel to get to the point a JC can exist. One where Reese is sent back in time for something else creating another timeline and just happens to meet Sarah and they have John and he grows up to be a Skynet problem anyways. Then it's possible for Sarah to have the story to tell John and he can then send Reese back to save him and T1 begins.

I am of the belief that anytime you time travel you time travel off of a base line. So if you time travel off an alternate timeline the alternate timeline is the new timelines base line.

Not sure that explains my POV or if it just confuses you more.

 

[Lost in Trek]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

"I hate temporal mechanics" Miles O'Brien - DS9

 

[ONEYE]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

In this thread I sometimes feel like the average kid being misplaced into the advanced kids group.

I only wish the T5 writers would take the time to think things out, or at a minimum, read this thread.