Terminator: Genisys

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

The real trick is the future happens, regardless who the one person is that takes the reigns to stop it. In T3 they went after Connors generals and hierarchy in an attempt to stop their future involvments, this effects the outcome of future battles and happenings but they still happen. Reason is its just someone else in that spot filling the role. Same could be said with the Connor's. Someone will take the reigns and the future, although altered, still happens. The end all time line is set as thats the end of the world. Anything before can be altered but you cant travel forward in time as it hasnt happened, only back in time. Its that set end point that Skynet is trying to avoid. Its hinted at in the green lighted TS script and the basis for the hybrid's. Skynet knows the future has that set end date because its already happened and thats when everything is done. No more technology, humanity is sterile, the skies are black. Skynet sets out to make humans into hybrids in an attempt to void that end date. It knows it can not win but being hybrid, the inner evil to rule and destroy thats in mankind is brought out on a machine/computer thinking level.

Ive also said this before but the JC we know isnt the JC savior, its the yet unborn JC Jr that is the savior who shuts Skynet down. There would be a series of events, including the death of JC Sr in TS that would confuse Skynet into believing they are still after JC Sr when in fact the person that pulls the plug is JC Jr.


Here is the last page of the TS green lighted filming script:

KATE
Please. We need you.
MARCUS bows his head for a long beat, as if seeking an answer
from within. Then he looks up again with resolve.
He lifts his hand-- the SKIN TATTERED, METAL exposed at
finger joints-- and moves to take CONNOR’S TREMBLING HAND.
CUT TO:
EXT. MOUNTAIN WAR - NIGHT
SLOW-MOTION, MOS - a SNOWY, MOUNTAINOUS ENVIRONMENT...
STEEL TERMINATORS go down in HAILS OF BULLETS. We hear
Marcus’ VO, his voice strong and assured:
MARCUS (V.O.)
Yea, though I walk through the
valley of the shadow of death...
AN ARMY of HUMAN RESISTANCE FIGHTERS marches through the
SNOW, GUNS BLAZING.
MARCUS (V.O.) (cont’d)
...I shall fear no evil...
AN H-K goes down IN FLAMES, SMASHES in the MOUNTAINSIDE.
THE GOLDEN EXPLOSION silhouettes a single FIGURE, who stands
on a PROMONTORY, surveying the battle below. AIDES and
SOLDIERS surround him, but he towers over them, giving
orders, in complete control. MOVE IN SLOWLY on him.
MARCUS (V.O.) (cont’d)
I died, and was reborn. I wear
another man’s face, lead another
man’s life... yet only now do I
have a reason for living. I once
was lost, but now I’m found...
ANOTHER BLAST illuminates his face for an instant-- scarred,
craggy, a blend of Marcus and Connor-- but fierce, determined
and proud. [Perhaps shoot this with both actors.]
MARCUS (V.O.) (cont’d)
...was blind, but now I see.
113.
CONTINUED: (2)
(CONTINUED)
THE LIGHT FADES, shadowing him in darkness again and we...
FADE TO BLACK.

 

[Wolfie138]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

i see the timelines as the BTTF theory. skynet was invented, sht happened, JC beat them. it sent the Term back so that a new time line would be created. theorectically, skynet will still be invented etc as nothing on that timeline changed, but SC is dead therefore when the war happens there will be no JC to beat them. maybe someone else would fill that role, who knows? regardless, there's nothing to say they'd be successful etc. i have no idea what would happen to the original timeline, whether it would "wink out of existence" or whatever, so would continue on in a parallel stream, my brain doesn't work that well X-/

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

For the machines to win, they would have had to send something back before the end actually happened. Since the end happened, anything leading up to it cant be undone, only postponed or altered yet the final outcome is the same. The issue is you never know when time travel is involved what has or will change because everything has already happened leading up to that point where the current existing time line catches up.
In other words in the Terminator time travel universe, you cant stop judgment day, you cant stop prior time travels, you cant stop the end time frame. As stated that end all to end all of time frames is set and where everything ends. The time machine is destroyed, the machines are shut down, mankind is doomed and the Earth is barren.

Now here is the neat thing talked about for T5/6 while TS was filming, as mentioned there is a single time machine and its destroyed just after the resistance sends Kyle back. Yet T2 happens, then T3 happens, then TS happens... There would be a point where someone or something has to go back in time to make sure those events happen, yet they dont know those events will happen. Its the same as said above, even though someone gets the idea "hey lets go back in time one hour and..." then T2 happens...

It reminds me of a skit I had seen on the State or Saturday Night Live where a super hero has the ability to time travel but only a few seconds. They end up in this infinite loop of a few seconds happening over and over again where he gets the idea to time travel back a few seconds...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

I think if you can accept time travel, then you must also be open to multiple timelines and alternate worlds. It gets pretty complicated.

One doesn't lead to the other. You can easily have time travel without multiple timelines and alternate worlds existing. And that's what the first Terminator movie shows.

It keeps surprising me why people go for the more complex conclusion regarding T1 that the timeline was one way before the Terminator and Reese came back and "changed" things and another after. It isn't shown like that in the movie at all. It is quite clearly shown that Reese's and Skynets past is Sarah Connors future. It is fused - it is ONE. There is no other timeline. Reese and the Terminator doesn't change one thing: they do exactly what they are supposed to do - Reese caused the birth of Connor and the Terminator caused the birth of Skynet (though, the last one is not shown directly in the movie, only in a deleted scene, but shown in T2).

If you think about it, it's actually quite simple, if you allow yourself to not go for the über-complex reasoning to try to squeeze the T1 formula into the other movies that yes, show the multiple timelines option - but at least it isn't cemented in T2, leaving things to be interpreted to happening exactly as they should, but giving a psychological boost to Sarah Connor and a hope for the future that she severely lacked in the beginning of the movie. She was trapped, broken, losing the fight, but with everything that happened in the movie, she gained back her hope. It was so poignant to hear her monologue at the end going out on a careful hopeful note... but not really knowing if anything had been changed.

T3 just crapped on everything with its silly over-complex nonsense theories to explain why judgment day and Terminators will still happen even though things had been stopped/changed. Oh no, they had just "postponed" things. NONSENSE. It's just shoehorning in the Terminators because... you cannot kill them off - like how the hero never dies in a movie, 'cause then the movie is over. Most action movies are just that... forgettable because the hero is impossible to kill and you never fear they may die, even if they stand right in front of an army shooting at him and he just easily pops them one at a time and never getting hit himself.

It's just surprising that some make things more complex than they are. I swear... the acceptance of changes in the past, multiple timelines, inevitable events regardless of what is changed... it's like accepting bad chronology in a story or movie. Time travel should be treated like writing a prequel - you'd want things to happen as they are eluded to in the already existing film... otherwise you just get the Star Wars prequels.

 

[Mechamaniac]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

This will either revive or kill the franchise

I'm probably in the minority here (I usually am), but IMHO, everything after Judgement Day was just necrophilia.

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

... it's like accepting bad chronology in a story or movie.

But the thing is, T1, T2, T3 and TS are all existing movies in the same universe under the same franchise. The only way to keep going is to tie them together. If not, just bury the franchise. A reboot would be a terrible idea. The casting for anything past T2 has been less than stellar and the tv series was a joke.


And I keep forgetting to mention that T3 didnt look like a Terminator film. It was plain, generic, no atmosphere. It looked more like a sitcom than a movie. At any moment I expected the A-Team or Knight Rider to roll up.

 

[Zombie Killer]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

The problem is there has to be a first timeline and that timeline is what leads up to skynet being created. Something from a non extisting timeline cannot be sent back to create itself. If skynet never sent the T800 back in time they would never have existed? How can that be? How does a timeline get started that is started by something that happens after it gets started? It makes no sense whatsoever. The timeline can't just pop up out of thin air and then a future action is what is the reason for it starting.

How do we know Reeses son was the real John Conner? The first John Conner could have eliminated himself as soon as he sent Reese back in time. For all we know the JC that sent Reese back could have been the son of someone else and he pretty much eliminated himself as soon as he replaced his father with someone else. ie Reese. What if JC sent back a 3rd guy and he killed Reese and then the 3rd guy had a baby with Sarah and they still named him JC? There would still be a John Conner but he would be a different person than the guy who sent Reese back.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

The problem is there has to be a first timeline and that timeline is what leads up to skynet being created.

No there hasn't. You are making things more complicated than it is.

Listen to what Reese tells Sarah. Historical facts that John told him - John's father dying before the war, Sarah hiding before the war, Training John before the war + 1 physical evidence: the PICTURE of Sarah that Reese had, that John gave him, that Sarah had taken by the end of the movie. NONE of that could have happened if she hadn't met Reese and that that was ALWAYS the one and only timeline.

Forget what he doesn't know, such as tech stuff and timelines, theory and stuff and concentrate on the HARD FACTS presented and they tell a very singular story that cannot be interpreted in any other way than fixed timeline.

There is no first timeline, there is no second timeline, there is only ONE timeline and that's what's seen in T1. In my view everything else just doesn't fit in, so is basically scrappable.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

But the thing is, T1, T2, T3 and TS are all existing movies in the same universe under the same franchise.

So are the novels and comics... easily ignored if you want to. Any future movie can decide to incorporate all the previous ones or concentrate on only the Cameron movies or only the first one. There really is NOTHING stopping that if you believe in the multiple timeline nonsense.

There is no continuity to adhere to in multiple timeline stories, so you are free to do anything. They can even have a story happening during the first T1 movie that seriously ALTERS everything happening in that one... Skynet can send millions of Terminators back through time and ensure it gets developed earlier and rule the world without the need of a nuclear war to oppress people and make them less violent.

The sky's the limit if you accept the multiple timeline storyline. You are not locked down by anything that has already happened as everything can be changed and nothing is inevitable.

But if you are like me and only accept T1 as the true story and the rest as fun, but mainly pointless movies, there is a very limited freedom about what happened, what happens and what has to happen.

 

[Zombie Killer]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Your missing the main point, you cannot create something from nothing. John Conner could not exist without him sending his own father back in time. How can he send him back if he doesn't exist? Same with Skynet. They can't exist untill they send the T800 back. Something had to start it all and it can't come from things that don't exist. For John to send his father back John would have to be alive. How can he be alive to send him back if he had not sent him back yet? I am talking about his whole life before he sent Reese back. There has to be an original timeline before any time travel happened. Think of it in this lifetime we live in now. How can someone right now who doesn't exist send someone back in time to become his father thus creating him? Can't, the only thing that can happen is someone who exists now sends someone back in time to have sex with his mother and as soon as that happens the original person is gone and a new "JC" is created. You just can't go back in time to create yourself.

Sarahs picture is nothing more than Camerons attempt to make sense of nonsense. That proves nothing in the grand sceme of the timetravel mess. It is nothing more than a movie producer throwing in something to try to tie together an impossible story. Your confusing the feasablilty of the story with some prop that was thrown in there to try to make it work. The point of Johns dad dying and Sarah hiding before the war could have happened whether reese was sent back or not. The first John Conner ceased to exist as soon as he sent Reese back in time to mess with his mother. What they say in the movie is nothing more that script lines. If we took what they say in the movie as gossiple then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Master Dahark]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Time Travel.

​

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Zombie Killer,

Your a little fixated on "what if's" than whats is. They are movies, the what if's need to be handled from pen to paper up to the editing room. After that, it is what it is. Take into consideration what ive previously said. There is a set end time line that everything revolves around. Things can be changed or altered but the outcome will be the same as its already happened in the future present. You cant go forward in time, only back. Once that time machine is destroyed and the machines shut down, its over. Thats the thing I like most about this idea as nobody wins. It was all for nothing but nobody (Skynet) could either accept it or realize (mankind) that it was for lack of a better word destiny.

Every film or form of entertainment and above all real life is full of what if's. Its the choices made that have already happened that affect the future. Dont eat or drink and see what happens. Odds are your going to be dead in a set period of time. No way around it, you wont be here in a couple weeks at the most. Thats a set time frame, its inevitable.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

I'm honestly wondering where you get that from that he doesn't exist. Clearly he exists because of actions he does in the future, fueled by events that happened in the past. Honestly, it reads like a load of nonsense for no reason.

And scientists today in this real world HAVE created something from nothing, so your argument doesn't hold water. You are overthinking and overanalyzing something that isn't that complicated if you accept that all time is present and has already happened at all time: past, present and future.

Your argument centers on things that is nowhere to be witnessed in any of the movies - not even in the sequels. I'm talking about the movies and what IS present and how people who like the multiple timeline (which I think is nonsense) and those who only think things as one timeline and only the first movie counts can co-exist - because... the one-timeliners can ignore all the rest, and the multi-timeliners needn't complain if a coming movie decides to continue the T1 story as established in that and ignoring the rest. It's just one time-line out of many and everyone's happy.

You seem to think that our present is reality. It is equally the future and the past to other times. So everything exists, if you want to go that philosophical about it, and things that exists in one time can be the creator of things existing in another time - we do it all the time... we in our present can be the creator and father of someone in the future. You are just thinking at time in a linear fashion from beginning to end. I'm looking at the whole time and anything and any time can affect another, but in a way that was always supposed to happen, so nothing changes - only those who thinks the world was going one way and seeing it going another would perceive it as a change, but it is in fact the one original course. They just didn't know it until they lived it.

The same with the Twelve Monkeys. I can never understand those who come to the conclusion that the appearance of the female scientist from the future on the plane somehow means she's there to stop him from spreading the virus. NO. It's established throughout the whole movie that the people of the future has no regard for the people of the past - it has already happened - and they have no intention of stopping, altering or fixing anything. She's there to get a pure sample of the virus to take back to the future, so they can reclaim the surface. In fact, her brief presence in the past, may in fact result in the original virus mutating into the world killer - they don't care, she doesn't care... she just wants the pure form virus.

I don't get it.

So, seriously, how do you explain the historical FACTS that Sarah hid and trained John before the war that Reese tells her about? You are clearly ignoring the significance of the picture to suit your own theory. That's like ignoring parts of a story and saying... hey... why is that alien planet's sky blue... because you ignored the part where it was explained why.

John IS alive because Reese fathered him in '84... and he's alive to take young Reese under his wing, guide him, keep him safe, tell him about Sarah, give him the picture and see him volunteer for the mission to go back to '84 because John KNOWS that Reese is his father.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't get your argument. Nothing in the movies suggests what you are talking about.

 

[MooCriket]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Rob, thanks for all the backstory. What a film it could have been.

 

[ONEYE]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Thanks to all participants in this thread, I enjoyed reading all your comments!

 

[robstyle]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

People argue that the woman on the plane in Twelve Monkeys was there to stop him? Thats silly, the virus was already released in the airport. What is sort of off on that though is the woman would now be infected with that original strain.


Oneye,
this is part of the time travel aspect in TS thats missing in the final edit. The original base raid was set in a cornfield, there were crude medical systems set up either growing or dissecting human tissue and organs. This is just after the big explosion happens, more than just Connor make it out:


INT. CHOPPER - NIGHT
A PANICKED PILOT on the radio:
PILOT
--repeat, that was not us! A ship
escaped, they musta blown the place
themselves! *****, a lot of our
guys were still down there...
EXT. CORNFIELD - NIGHT
SOLDIERS above ground help the WOUNDED to EVAC CHOPPERS.
IN FG, FIND the STEEL SKULL of the dead TERMINATOR.
DISSOLVE TO:
EXT. CORNFIELD - DAY
SAME ANGLE-- the TERMINATOR now half-sunk in mud. A FIELD
MOUSE has nested in its skull cavity, seeking shelter from
RAINDROPS.
Months have passed, the season changed-- CORN long dead, a
black stubble. RAIN falls.
A PATCH OF MUD stirs-- something below is moving. The MUD
roils, seeming to assume a HUMAN SHAPE...
EYES OPEN, looking around in shock, the naked FIGURE is so
drenched in mud we can’t recognize it at first. The figure
rises, looks up at the sky, and FALLING RAIN washes away mud
from his face... it’s MARCUS WRIGHT. He opens his mouth,
makes a few GUTTURAL NOISES... then SCREAMS.
CAMERA PULLS UP from MARCUS’ AGONIZED FACE...

 

[Zombie Killer]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

I'm honestly wondering where you get that from that he doesn't exist. Clearly he exists because of actions he does in the future, fueled by events that happened in the past. Honestly, it reads like a load of nonsense for no reason.

He exists because of the actions he does in the future? This makes sense to you? So he doesn't exist if he doesn't do anything? He just disappears like BTTF?

And scientists today in this real world HAVE created something from nothing, so your argument doesn't hold water. You are overthinking and overanalyzing something that isn't that complicated if you accept that all time is present and has already happened at all time: past, present and future.

Please name one thing scientists have made from nothing? They mixed nothing and nothing and got what?

Your argument centers on things that is nowhere to be witnessed in any of the movies - not even in the sequels. I'm talking about the movies and what IS present and how people who like the multiple timeline (which I think is nonsense) and those who only think things as one timeline and only the first movie counts can co-exist - because... the one-timeliners can ignore all the rest, and the multi-timeliners needn't complain if a coming movie decides to continue the T1 story as established in that and ignoring the rest. It's just one time-line out of many and everyone's happy.

My argument is that the whole story is impossible. You seem to think i am trying to prove one theory or another theory about how it all went down when i am saying it was impossible to happen at all. I don't care or need to know any of the story line. What i am saying is you can't send someone back in time to create yourself because you can't exist until you do.

You seem to think that our present is reality. It is equally the future and the past to other times. So everything exists, if you want to go that philosophical about it, and things that exists in one time can be the creator of things existing in another time - we do it all the time... we in our present can be the creator and father of someone in the future. You are just thinking at time in a linear fashion from beginning to end. I'm looking at the whole time and anything and any time can affect another, but in a way that was always supposed to happen, so nothing changes - only those who thinks the world was going one way and seeing it going another would perceive it as a change, but it is in fact the one original course. They just didn't know it until they lived it.

Yes we in the present can be the creator and father of something in the future BUT we cannot be the creator and father of ourselves in the past.

The same with the Twelve Monkeys. I can never understand those who come to the conclusion that the appearance of the female scientist from the future on the plane somehow means she's there to stop him from spreading the virus. NO. It's established throughout the whole movie that the people of the future has no regard for the people of the past - it has already happened - and they have no intention of stopping, altering or fixing anything. She's there to get a pure sample of the virus to take back to the future, so they can reclaim the surface. In fact, her brief presence in the past, may in fact result in the original virus mutating into the world killer - they don't care, she doesn't care... she just wants the pure form virusI don't get it.

Never paid attention to 12 monkeys. It was a crap movie.

So, seriously, how do you explain the historical FACTS that Sarah hid and trained John before the war that Reese tells her about? You are clearly ignoring the significance of the picture to suit your own theory. That's like ignoring parts of a story and saying... hey... why is that alien planet's sky blue... because you ignored the part where it was explained why.

My theory is that none of it could happen as the movies show it without alot of changes or added timelines.

John IS alive because Reese fathered him in '84... and he's alive to take young Reese under his wing, guide him, keep him safe, tell him about Sarah, give him the picture and see him volunteer for the mission to go back to '84 because John KNOWS that Reese is his father.

John knows what Sarah told him, which came from what John told Reese and that came from what Reese told Sarah. Which Sarah told john that john told reese that then told sarah. What a bunch of Cameron bunk. It's just a big loop with no begining and why it holds no water in reality.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't get your argument. Nothing in the movies suggests what you are talking about.

If you keep on using the movie as evidence then you will never get what i am saying. Step away from Camerons dream world and enter reality. You cannot make anything from nothing. Thus the movies are fatally flawed. It's still a great movie just flawed to the bone from the first movie. This is why none of the movies will ever make complete sense and never mesh with each other.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Seriously. Most people judge a movie by its contents, not what is only possible or not possible in reality. Can't believe you accept time travel movies at all or science fiction or any movie for that instance. Jeez. Have fun.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

People argue that the woman on the plane in Twelve Monkeys was there to stop him? Thats silly, the virus was already released in the airport. What is sort of off on that though is the woman would now be infected with that original strain.

Yeah, she sacrificed herself for the sake of future human dominion of the surface - she'll be placed in an air tight room, experimented on and die, while the others get the chance to go to the surface: a true selfless act.

 

[SSgt Burton]

re: Terminator 5 (Reboot)

Glen-

Some people believe that time travel itself (including multiple/parallel universes) is impossible and has no basis in reality. That it is on the same level as fire breathing dragons.

Don't take it "too" seriously.


Have you heard the oldest time travel paradox?

A man builds a time machine and travels into the past. He meets his grandfather long before he married his grandmother.

He gets into an argument with him and kills him.

Now if his grandfather is dead, how can he be born? And if he can never be born, how can he build a time machine and go back to kill his own grandfather?


Honestly I liken time travel films to fantasy films. They are fun and intricate and like a puzzle. But I don't put any weight into the actual mechanics of how it is supposed to "work."

Don't get me wrong though- the fantasy still has to have "rules". And when the "rules" that have been established for a long time are broken, it can annoy me.

For example- Vampires don't exist. However when I watch I vampire movie, I "expect" them to burst into flames when exposed to the sun; not sparkle or something. That's one of the "rules."


So I can easily accept that paradoxes can exist in time travel stories. That's all these are. Stories.


Kevin